SHe is definately trying to get attention of some kind. I think I'd be hesitant to give it. I don't know what is the right advice there. Maybe give it but only to a point. I imagine the newness of her R with OM is wearing off and reality of maintaining a long distance R is wearing on her. Especially when she has all she needs right in front of her. About the boobs.....make sure you let her know that you like hers just the way they are. I mean REALLY like them. Will make her feel loved for exactly who she is.
Email & MSN Messenger: Becca_1975@msn.com
Yesterday Is History
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
Today is a Gift.
That Is Why It Is Called "The Present"
ok,I heard flirting, getting attention and other stuff. Maybe she was just talking to me and doesn't feel awkward being naked any more? It was only a moment in time.
What a fun 2 hours. Counselor, W , Me, D10 and D15 all together in a room.
Overall, it was civil, filled with tears, some laughs and some awkwardness. Some highlights:
D15 basically says 'Mom is not here emotionally and just hasn't really explained to me WHY she is doing this, especially since Dad finally does the work on himself to get 'better' and that's when you leave him?'
W says: "Well I was afraid he will kill himself if I left him and when he was better I knew he'd be ok"
WAAAAAAAATTTT???? She made noises about leaving several times over the past few years, one time she almost got an apartment. We got counseling and worked it out. At NO time did she seem to think I would 'off' myself or she would not have even TALKED about leaving, now would she? So far she has said she left now because 'she needed to build up the courage', 'she was afraid to leave for the kids sake' and now 'dad would have killed himself but he's ok now'
She finally did admit (with help from counselor) that she just wanted to live the experiences she didn't get as a young girl, like D15 is living. Falling in love and stuff like that. Our life wasn't filled with 'in love' so she left to look for it somewhere else. She says 'I don't love your dad any more, I'm not in love with him, I love him differently now." We married young and she 'realizes' it wasn't the best choice. D15 goes ballistic! "You mean having ME was a mistake?" W says "no, I love you but I missed out on a lot of my life by having you so young."
D15 says "So, it's ok to have a kid, make a family and then 15 years later say 'oops, my bad' and walk away??"
Conversation eventually settled on the fact that W is trying to find herself, and it has nothing to do with kids.
D10 tells how she just doesn't want the divorce for any reason. Counselor explains that this is the way life is right now and D10 cres uncontrollably. I hate W for doing this.
C asks for kids to grade Dad on how he is at being there for them. Dad gets an 'A'. Same question about mom. Mom gets a 'D'. D10 says dad gets an 'A' because ''Dad sits with me sometimes and cries with me and then I feel better'. Mom doesn't.
Counselor talks about upcoming Xmas holiday and tells us we need to do all the things we normally do as a family and try to have fun. I make a comment that it's uncomfortable being with W because there is a barrier between us and I don't know what is or is not acceptable to her. W says we've been getting along this week really well, which is true.
So I take a chance and say 'well, if we are supposed to be friends then why can't we act like friends? I like to hug my friends, put an arm around their shoulder, joke with them and other stuff. Believe me, I have NO illusions about your position on divorce so I don't have any romantic intentions. But I'm tired of being around you and saying 'we are friends' but not acting like it. This will be something we discuss in tomorrows couples meeting with counselor. How fun.
Counselor says this is a good thing to start working on. W makes the obsevation that her dad didn't stay friends with her mom after D but W has no respect for him anyway. I add that her Dad is not HER, and my DAD is not ME so we don't need to repeat their mistakes.
Counselor says we need to get a family picture taken. She also says get a picture of just the kids, and a picture of W and I together. This is so the girls will have photos of their family, their parents, that they can show their kids or others in their lives. So we agree.
I make the observation that W's photos of her parents are separate pictures. None of them together at all. In fact I have never seen any pictures of them together, as if they never WERE a family. I can see her point, we shouldn't erase our KIDS memories just because we can't keep our lives straight.
Counselor tells us that it is important to 'love and honor' each other because no matter what we will be seeing each other in the next 20 years and we ARE the parents of two beautiful girls. That by itself is justification for loving and honoring each other even after a divorce. We'll be talking about this tomorrow too.
Later at home, W comes to talk to me after putting D10 to bed, She says: "I help her with her homework, I read to her, I went to the library with her and I put her to bed and I get a 'D' from her. You spent 15 minutes with her when she's in bed and you get an 'A'. What do I have to do to get an 'A'?
She then breaks down sobbing. I offer her a hug, she says no. She goes into her room and I can hear her sobbing for about 20 minutes.
I didn't tell her what I think but basically it's because I am not doing the breakup of the family, she is. And, when I spend time with D10 I talk about how she is FEELING and I empathize with her fellings. In other words I demostrate to her that I love her and I will take care of her physically and spiritually.
Maybe W will still go down the Divorce path but one thing is for sure, until she stops being selfish with her love she will be alone.
W was still up around midnite. one of her massage teacher friends called her around 10 or so and she talked to him for a couple hours. I overheard a couple things that were actually good.
- She told him that she was convinced that I really had 'given up' on us reconciling. I have told her repeatedly that I have 'no illusions' about her feelings and intentions to divorce. I think she also said she couldn't really stay mad at me any more (but she does from time to time).
- She said that we are comitted to living together for 6 months to a year and raise the kids together as friends and co-parents.
She told me later that the friend said to tell me he was sorry I was hurt so much because he had seen me at the party we had gone to and could feel that I was hurt. Kind of interesting that he told her, and she told me. He is one of her better friends so for him to say that to HER is interesting. For her to tell me that and not think anything of it is also interesting.
She and I talked about some other things also. She feels that it's unfair that she has to take all the heat from the girls because they think that 'I fixed myself and then she left'. I really didn't do the work I needed to do until after she told me she was leaving, and the girls didn't know she was leaving for about 2 weeks. She says she doesn't want to tell them that because she doesn't want to say negative things about me to them. I'm going to talk to C today in our joint meeting and ask her how I can remedy this as it is important that W see that I am taking responsibility for my role with the kids.
I also repeated to her that I know she is gone, and I just want us to get along. She has basically said repeatedly that she 'stayed with me but was wanting to leave for the past 6 years'. I said that I've had to deal with the fact that her words imply that our marriage was fake and she was just there for the kids sake or so I wouldn't kill myself or because she didn't have anywhere else to go and other stuff she had said. Told her that it took me a lot of counselong and crying at nite to deal with that fact taht our marriage was fake for so long.
She then starts to explain that it wasn't fake, that she really wanted it to get better and that there were good times too. She says 'I loved you all that time. I still love you now, I just don't want to be married any more. I don't want to live like that ever again'. My heart is broken and I want more from my life.
I told her my heart is broken too, because I see that I could have done something and I didn't. I also said that even though I know I can love someone else and be loved by someones else I just don't want to find someone else. I don't really feel like that would be good for me so I'm sure it'll take a few years for me to change that feeling. So I guess we're in the same position - she doesn't want to find someone else and get married, neither do I.
Then we talked a little about living together and she said she was sure we could do it for at least 6 months but her fold out bed is extremely uncomfortable. I told her that I had seen that other people on the divorce boards I frequent were either sharing a bed with a long pillow or something as a divider between them, or had a twin bed in their room, which is better than a fold out bed. She said she was finally used to not listening to me snore so she wasn't sure she wanted to be in the same room. I snore a lot less now.
Maybe she will think about it. The bed it pretty uncomfortable. I'm going to bring it up with C today. She is so much better at spinning this kind of thing into a 'good idea'.
What are others who are co-habitating but have no spare room doing?
She also complained she has no privacy in her room since the doors don't lock and the girls will come in 'whenever they want to'. So as a result she doesn't get any 'release' (B.O.B.) time. I suggested she go into our (my) room and lock the door, it was ok with me. I also said 'Hey, I'm available!'. She got angry and said 'that is simply not appropriate'. Oh well.
So, the good part is she is still staying in the house, she is still going to try to be a 'friend' and she is starting to get less angry. Counselor's goal is to continue to address all the negatives and try to counteract them with positives. I'm going to make sure she sees me take more responsibility for our situation with our kids so they may not hate her as much (they will no matter what, she is the one leaving). I think that will soften her up a little.
If she really tries to make Christmas happier by softening up and dropping some of her barriers to me that would be a great step forward.
This is so crazy. It's slow to change and she gives me indications that she is less angry, but always points out how sure she is that she is 'out of this marriage'. I guess it would be nice if she would question her decision just once or say anything that indicates that she's having second thoughts.
Right now my challenge is to be able to be 'just a friend' and regain her trust in that regard. That is the hardest thing to do. I am hoping that as we move down that path she will allow her love to reappear and manifest itself. If not, then at least we won't hate each other. There is a lot of hurt to heal.
I think you're on the right track. Be her friend and regain her trust. That's a good start. It is very difficult to do though, because at a time when they don't deserve our friendship, that's when you have to offer it the most.
I wish I had more advice to give you, but I don't live with my H. now, so your situation is not familiar to me. I wish it were. I consider you one of the lucky ones, to have W. living at home with you, and OM so far away. You stand a very good chance of working it out in time.
Good luck.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
We had our second couples counseling session which is supposed to be aimed at us learning why our marriage failed and healing the resentments so we can be good friends and co-parents and do better in the future relationships.
Todays initial discussion was me asking W if she REALLY wanted to live together for up to a year, and if she REALLY wanted to do this counseling with me. One of her stated reasons for staying in the home with me and the kids during separation / divorce was financial. I told her that I could make two households work financially whenever she wanted to go so that wasn't holding her in the home or counseling. I really want her comitted to the process.
She said she really DID want to be in counseling because she didn't want us to have any resentments towards each other since we will be our kids parents for a long time. We talked about how her Dad thinks we're crazy, and most people we know think it's crazy that we are getting divorced yet we plan on staying together but separated for a year to help the kids get through it and to heal our own crap.
Counselor said we are the sane ones and that most people get bitter, split up and hurt everyone.
We talked about a lot of different things, times when we were happy, times when we felt like the other one didn't love us. It was the same as any marriage counseling except there were no discussions on what to do to improve the marriage, just what went wrong and how we COULD have done it differently.
Basically it comes down to the fact that we held back a lot of our love for each other, or didn't let the other one in. It was pretty obvious we loved each other, and that we also were hurt. There were father issues with her trying to 'fix' things about her relationship with her dad through her relationship with me and me doing similar 'fixing'.
Also that she had thought she could never feel those feelings of love again, and that her 'relationship' with OM showed her that it was possible. C said to her 'it wasn't really as much a relationship as it was an event, or a chance to live out a fantasy' and W agreed. Her tone of voice seemed to be saying that it is fading out.
W said she wants to feel this in all her relationships and C said 'the work we are doing will make that possible'.
Many other issues too numerous to talk about here.
The biggest thing we were told we should do is make this Xmas as normal and loving as any other, by being kinder and loving to each other. As C said to us "you had 15 years of marriage where you witheld some part of yourself from the other and now you certainly deserve to feel it during this time". She is so good.
On the drive home we were totally emotionally lost. W says 'why didn't we do this work on ourselves a long time ago?' I said 'because I guess we weren't ready to'. "What does being loving, kind and nurturing look like in our current situation?". W says "I don't know".
I think we were both shocked at how much we BOTH hurt each other, by protecting ourselves emotionally when we didn't have to. It was so hard to stop thinking of this as a 'marriage counseling' session that we were going to go home from and have a marriage. It was so much like that and not like a 'let's get along and forgive the past' session. For me and I think for W it was very confusing. She is still in 'divorce mode' of course and frames this all as a way for her to 'do better in her new relationships'. But our interactions tonite so far are more pleasant than they have been in a long time. I understand a lot more about what she has really needed from me.
So we're trying to figure out how we act 'loving, kind and compassionate' with each other in this divorce situation. I am totally confused tonite so I'll just go with it and we'll see what happens.
Well we spent some time in the kitchen working on making a gingerbread house together. We joked and had some fun so the kids could see us being fun together. It was weird because some of it seemed forced, from her and I must admit from me too. We've been so disconnected for 2 months, protecting ourselves emotionally, that it is hard to trust again. But this is what our counselor said to do during the holidays to give the kids a more positive environment.
We had some good natured fun, threw some flour at each other and it was pleasant, if a little uncomfortable. I know this should be natural for me but the reality of the situation - that she's doing this for the kids sake - makes it hard for me to get into it. But I did 'act as if'.
Later W says 'time to watch TV' and I said 'the kids are in bed'. She says 'yes, but C said to watch tv like we used to so if they come downstairs we will be here like normal for them'. So we watch tv and the show we are watching has two people who are getting a divorce, and are doing mean things to each other. W looks at me and says 'let's make sure we don't do that'.
I know I should expect her to say things like that, it just hurts every time she does because of the implications that she is being nice for the kids sake, but still pushing for divorce no matter what.
And that's where I am stuck right now. In our counseling we got so close to some issues we had, and I thought she was feeling some of the loving feelings again. But I also have to realize that she is more likely to look at the issues of the past in the context of "learning so she can have better relationships after the divorce".
I know, PATIENCE. We're on a path where we will learn how we failed each other in our relationship. Maybe along the way she and I will rediscover that love that we had between us. We have just begun the journey and I am so impatient, and fearful that it will end with a divorce anyway, but we'll be emotionally healthy.
If our counselor keeps pushing the 'emotions' button on her each week we meet, and she also finds ways to demonstrate to W how we truly loved each other but lost our way, then there has to be a good chance that we CAN rediscover that love. But it will only happen when W is willing to stop being angry with me, and fearful that any relationship we have will turn out the same as it did in the past.
I know that 'emotional affairs' burn out, and the one she has with OM seems to be fading slowly. But now she is comparing that 'feeling in love' with our relationship and sees our relationship as no comparison. She want's those feelings.
LIke TJ and others say "You have to be their best friend for real and not need anything in return". I keep going back and forth between needing to be loved and being detached. Now I must learn how to love, be a friend and stay detached at the same time. Sigh. I hate this because if I do stay detached and be friends and then she responds I will then pursue and push her away! I have got to get better at this. She gives me no encouragement that we will ever be more than friends, at least so far. But like I said it has only been two counseling sessions so far.
I think when we can get to a core issue where W feels how she loved me then we may make progress. I do know one thing, she is processing a LOT of emotional stuff. D15 had som eissues with her tonite but they worked it out. And she is gung ho about acting happy, us getting along and putting up a front for the girls sake.
I wonder how to take that 'pretending' and turn it into something real with her? It can be done, but how? I know in DB'ing we're supposed to show our changes by actions, not words. I need to become not indifferent, but caring without needing.
Quote: But now she is comparing that 'feeling in love' with our relationship and sees our relationship as no comparison. She want's those feelings.
frank, this is where I am at with my WAH. He believes he's in love with o.w. and has told me he loves me but is having a hard time being in love with me. Those feelings are missing from our R. because of all that has happened, the cheating he did, the guilt, etc. I don't know if H. will ever be able to overcome all of that. But I can't do anything about it; he's going to either have to come to terms with it, or else he will ask me for a D. which I don't want. I think you are doing a very good job. Hang in there and stay strong. Merry Christmas.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
Quote: Frank, you do have an awesome C. You should be grateful for that. They're not all like that. You got a special one. Good for you.
Yeah, I know I do.
Whatever happens at least I know SHE has tried her best.
Checked W e-mail today - OM sent her an e-mail saying he missed her. She sent one yesterday saying she missed him. Something like 'My love, I didn't have time to talk to you about my counseling experience the other day...'. Guess she wanted to tell him more justifications for her leaving me and why he is her love. She still is in that emotional state with him. He didn't say 'love' or 'I love you' in his e-mail, just 'I miss you'. He is so strange, why does she feel this way? Why does HE FEEL THIS WAY? She's 3,000 miles away from him! Let it go [censored]!
It sucks. My friend says 'he is an a*hole, a loser, he has no idea what he is doing to your family, he has worse problems than you do, your W is hurt and using him to feel good, she is growing, she is confused, she tells you different things about her feeings every day, forget about him... blah blah'.
That's nice to hear but what I want to hear is SHE IS DONE WITH HIM. I guess I was crazy to think it would be so quick - 2 weeks since she saw him. Now I am wondering if he will visit her in February.
I guess I need to remember that it takes many weeks for change, not a couple weeks. I thought she was really moving in a different direction. She's been a lot more 'touchy - feely' with me the past 2 days. Putting her hands on my shoulders whn talking to me from the side, she even kissed me on the forehead to thank me for getting her car washed today and gave me a hug later for another reason. Then she goes and takes the time to e-mail other man this 'miss you' stuff.
It sure looked like a ton of baby steps but the 'my love' stuff hurts me to the core and makes all the baby steps seem fake. WILL SHE EVER STOP IT WITH HIM?
Guys, what shoud I be doing here? I know I hear others whose S are having an affair say how they tell OM/OW they love them, and tell US nothing like that but do baby steps to confuse us. Maybe nothing in our therapy will ever turn her back towards me. We'll just be 'great friends'.
I need a prayer guys, that he get's a small conscience and doesn't come in february, and he starts to fade away...
Well, at least I know it hasn't changed overnite. I was hoping. God I was hoping, but it's still the same. I don't know why they aren't talking on the phone much now, just E-mail and IM. Why did she throw away the plastic rose he gave her, and the sprig of holly she had on her computer monitor? Why?
Hi Frank, I don't know why our Ss do any of the things they do. I wanted to tell you that I think you are doing a great job with your sitch under very stressful conditions. Please try to hang in there and be patient as I see some real hope for your family.
Merry Christmas
Spitfire
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. Mark Twain
