Ouch. W just called from her friends house down in Santa Monica. Her friend works for this school where they teach counseling from a spiritual perspective or something like that. She invited W to go to her work party tonite because her original friend canceled out. So she's not coming home till late.
All kinds of 'what if she meets someone?' 'what if she has fun and thinks being single is all fun?' are going through my mind.
It should be mostly women there, and weird 'spiritual' people so I shouldn't be worrying. But the pangs and fears are there. If we were still in our relationship I wouldn't care. Her friend is also someone who would introduce her to men, although she knows about OM so maybe she won't be pushy. I guess it also pisses me off becasue this friend is someone I helped with making a massage video recently. But then again I don't think she would have invited W to go to 'meet men' as the primary reason but just because they spent the day together and she was looking for someone to go with her at the last minute.
OK, so why am I scared? Should I be? It's just a party for crying out loud and she's "in love" with OM so nobody will be able to hit on her. Also, most people there will be in there 20's. (she's 37). Nothing to be concerned about, right?
I guess I just don't want her to have fun. She is supposed to be miserable without me. My fears are in overdrive. Is this a big deal?
I'm so loving the line "I'm not worried about me!!! Did she figure out that you were referring to being worried about her?
I'm still not convinced about the OM. I still think his GF has no clue as to what is going on. He could easily get away with telling your W anything she wants to hear and then resuming his life with GF the rest of the time. What have ou confirmed about them again and their R...other than GF has still not moved out? Reason why she hasn't? Do they own property?
SO did you go to the party? What did you do this weekend???
Quote: Did she figure out that you were referring to being worried about her?
The conversation ended pretty quickly after that. But she had to subconsciously make a connection to the following:
"Am I ignoring my family with this obsession?"
"How CAN Frank stand in front of me and be concerned about how I feel when the feelings he is concerned about are things that are hurting him?"
(Answer: Because he loves you, silly)
I think she will be wonderng about these questions. maybe in her dreams or in the back of her mind, but she WILL wonder.
Oh, that party on saturday, she didn't want to go because last nites party was all 'couples' and she felt out of place. We stayed home and I made a fire for her and D10.
Quote: I'm still not convinced about the OM. I still think his GF has no clue as to what is going on. He could easily get away with telling your W anything she wants to hear and then resuming his life with GF the rest of the time. What have you confirmed about them again and their R...other than GF has still not moved out? Reason why she hasn't? Do they own property?
Actually I searched the property filings for their house where they live (I know a lot about him and I know how to find things on the net quite well). They do not own it, it belongs to someone else. So I will assume it is a rental. Gee, he's 39 and doesn't own his house. Especially when houses there only cost like $150,000. Nothing like here in lovely Southern Cal.
I do know she hasn't moved out because W asked him where to mail xmas cards to him since she didn't want to upset GF. She probably hasn't moved out because she co-signed the lease I guess.
You are the 20'th person to say that he could be telling W a story. I think he DID tell GF 'it is over' and he told W that GF "won't accept it". I try to give people the benefit of the doubt but it sure does keep looking fishy. I remember when I was in my 20's, I broke up with a GF of 7 years and it was pretty amicable. BUT whenever she called me and I wasn't doing anything I would not turn down a little intimacy if I could get it. I would find it HARD to believe he isn't doing the same.
My secret hope? He decides GF is more important, or meets someone locally. He has a conscience and tells W they have to be just friends or stop talking. Then she gets hurt, sees that 'in love' is not 'real love' and we actually have a chance to pick up the pieces of our lives together.
The week before she went to 'visit' OM so they could be friends she was in a similar place emotionally. She had been pursuing, he hadn't been responding as much as she would have liked and in fact did not call her for a week. She and I were starting to connect as 'friends' and I could see a light in the distance. So if she does get dumped I believe she will be hurt enough to where she will lean on me, and that may open the door towards the real work we need to do.
Frank...seriously if I were you...I'd keep on keeping on with all that you have done. Your interactions with your W are wonderful...your DBing excellent.
These are all the pluses I see here. Your W is still at home. This is a Long Distance Relationship. Many issues here...LDRs are difficult enough to continue but when you still have both parties living with their SOs HELLO? Your wife doesn't want to send a card because of GFs feelings? HELLO...why would she really care? Maybe she deep down knows that there is more to this than she is letting on? What is more attractive...someone who is geographically and physically attractive or someone you spent a few days with and that you may never see again? They become an illustion of grandeur...can they ever live up to your expectations? GF still lives there...if they are not married, then she has no ties and she would be po'd and she would move out, lease or not, she'd dump the lease on him just in spite. Trust me... Where did she stay when she went to see him? DId he stay with her overnight or did he have to run home before the sun came up...or does he have a job that would put him out of town? Okay, he's 39 and renting...how is he going to afford something if he moves to CA? And who plans on moving where if they take this to the next level?
Quote: This is a Long Distance Relationship. Many issues here...LDRs are difficult enough to continue but when you still have both parties living with their SOs HELLO? Your wife doesn't want to send a card because of GFs feelings? HELLO...why would she really care? Maybe she deep down knows that there is more to this than she is letting on?
I think she cares because she met the girl in Hawaii at the retreat before she had her 'soulmate' experience with OM. She knows the GF is needy and also has MS. I really think she feels guilty, hence the question she asked the other day "I hope you really were going to end it with her before you met me and I was just the catalyst". Just like he was tha 'catalyst' for her to leave me. Like I said, the day before she called me and told me she loved me and missed me. Seems like she doesn't want to be the CAUSE of the breakup.
Quote: What is more attractive...someone who is geographically and physically attractive or someone you spent a few days with and that you may never see again? They become an illustion of grandeur...can they ever live up to your expectations?
Yeah, I agree with that. Right now he is an illusion of extreme grandeur and I am 'just there'. She shows very little emotion to me and no love. But we do have moments from time to time. Then they are gone. She is obsessed with OM.
Quote: GF still lives there...if they are not married, then she has no ties and she would be po'd and she would move out, lease or not, she'd dump the lease on him just in spite. Trust me...
Well normally I would agree with you but as I said earlier, she is a NEEDY person. According to OM she doesn't want to face the 'truth' that 'it is over'. I think she is neurotic and he is too. Remember they have lived together 3 years so they have had the opportunity to become codependent. I don't know about other people, but when I was 36 I COULD TELL which women were neurotic and which ones were OK. Actually, when I was 21 I could tell within a week of dating someone. But usually within 10 minutes of talking to them. If he got into this relationship with GF and she is needy and neurotic and he either didn't see it or he was ATTRACTED to it then what does that say about him?
Quote: Where did she stay when she went to see him? DId he stay with her overnight or did he have to run home before the sun came up...or does he have a job that would put him out of town?
She rented a hotel room. They went to a town 80 miles away from where he lived so they stayed overnite. Don't know what he told GF.
Quote:
Okay, he's 39 and renting...how is he going to afford something if he moves to CA? And who plans on moving where if they take this to the next level?
Well, W says there is no man that would make her leave her kids. "She'd rather have a hot poker stuck in her eye". She says this a lot. Would he leave his friends, business, roots? For a 37 year old woman with kids? Well W says he doesn't like living in Connecticut as he is from Florida. And I recall him saying he might just go back there, to Jacksonville. Personally I don't know how he could make a living out here as a massage therapist, or a teacher. Southern California is overpopulated with both of those things. And where he lives now he has a whole house in a small town for probably $1,000 a month. Here he might get a small apartment in the CITY for that. Talk about culture shock.
Besides, I have NEVER known any man who would make such a drastic change in their life for a woman they barely know, even 'for love'. I would even be pretty hard pressed to get her to move to where I am and live with me or near me. That is one hell of a responsibility, to get someone to change their life so drastically. And, most men are not going to leave their jobs / roots / friends for love. Do you know anyone who has?
I know that logically it should just not work. But WHEN? Right now she is trying to set up a meeting in February with him.
On a different topic, tonite she is at a christmas party with one of her single friends. The friend is about 300 lbs and nice enough, very outgoing. Next to her my wife is a godess. Who do you think the guys will go for? I know I shouldn't think that there is any real chance of her getting hit on since the party is an office party in a college for counseler training or spiritual education or something in Santa Monica. The kind of people there will be mostly women and the men will be, well, 'spiritual'. Any men who are her age, 37 or older, and are single might be a little lacking in personality.
I remember reading that there is no shortage of single divorced moms in the 35-45 age range but a huge shortage of single men in that age range. That's why so many divorced women with kids don't get married again.
Well, continuing last nites story since it didn't 'end' after my last post...
Was putting D10 to bed and heard D15 in her room crying and yelling to someone on the phone. Things like:
"I don't want to live here any more ... Sure I can move, my Daddy said he could sell the house and get two small houses.... Then I can live with him".
This upset D10 but I convinced here D15 was just mad at her boyfriend.
1/2 hour later D15 comes to talk to me. She is PISSED at mom.
D15: Why does mom think it is all right to go to a PARTY on Sunday nite? She is supposed to be acting like our MOM not like a teenager. And she decided this tonite, not planned in advance to ask us what we think. Who does she think she is? I am so tired of her trying to act like she is MOM and is in charge but she behaves like a teenager. She obviously doesn't want to be married or be a MOM any more.
She also tells me she doesn't like the fact that W and I come and go 'as we please' instead of staying home with the family. She wants us to split up and 'get it over with'. She doesn't want to be around mom any more. I carefully explain to her that it's very important we stay all living together for a few months. I can't really tell her why. She also tells me that she thinks mom is a total selfish person right now and she doesn't give D15 any respect. She thinks I'm the only 'grown up' in the house. I try to defend W but it's hard because, well, she is right.
I realize then that I have been doing LRT and leaving the house at nite to be 'out' so W will be alone. But it's affecting the kids. They want me to be present right now. I tell D15 that I was giving mom her space and independence but I realize that it is affecting her feeings so I will not go out any more. I'll stay home, either in my room or around the house. She is glad to hear that.
D15 stays up till midnite waiting for W so she can tell her how mad she is. But W doesn't come home by then so D15 and I go to bed. I tell D15 that she can go to school late tomorrow because she is upset and not sleeping.
W eventually comes home around 12:30 and goes to bed.
This morning (monday)
W comes into my room 'to talk'. She has been arguing with D15 about school, the party, the divorce.
W: D15 says you told her it was ok to go to school late.
Me: Yes, she was up till midnite last nite and is very upset that you went to that party. She needs a break.
W: Well why didn't you call me if it was important? I would have come right home? The party wasn't fun anyway because I didn't know anybody....
Me: I had the impression you would be unreachable, and D15 didn't want to call you. Besides you would have had to make (friend) take you back to her place to change clothes and get your car. (in my mind - she called and told me in a matter of fact voice that she was going to a party and did NOT ask to talk to either Daughter.)
Me: When you called to tell me you were going I told D10 afterwards and she was hurt that you weren't coming home at dinner time like you said but didn't say anything. D15 didn't seem to care till around 10 pm when she started this venting of her anger. I spent 2 hours talking with her about all kinds of issues. One of the things she is upset about is that I go out a lot during the week by myself and so do you. I realize that it's because I have been playing this 'let's have separate lives' game with you and it's "your weekend with the kids". I don't want to do that any more. I'm going to stay home from now on so my girls can have me there for them.
W: Why don't you tell them that you think the Divorce is a good idea too? That's what you told me and that's what you told our counselor? They think that only I want to do this.
Me: Because I said that I thought that the SEPARATION and us spending time apart growing on our own was great for us. I have grown a lot during this time. I think that the divorce is a BAD idea. It's BAD for ME, It's BAD for YOU and it's BAD for our FAMILY. But I will continue to honor your request for it.
Conversation ends at that point.
10 minutes later she comes in and says 'Now D10 says she is sick and doesn't want to go to school'. I say that she felt a little sick last nite but should be ok. She sends D10 into the room and I explain to her that she is OK and needs to go to school. D10 whines but I am firm so W takes her to school.
W calls an hour later from work place and leaves a message that she forgot her cell phone at home (Oh, boo hoo you can't call OM and tell him how I suck, and the kids suck and your life sucks!) so if I need her call her friends office number.
D15 stays home till noon time. I take her to school and ask her if she is 'ok now' with mom. She says 'NO, she is being a jerk still'. I asked her if mom told her that I agreed that a divorce was a good thing for us. She said 'yes, and I know that's wrong because you told me you didn't want it'. I mention that Mom asked me to tell her that but I told mom that it was the separation that I agreed with, not the divorce, just so D15 would know the real story.
W called again and this time got me on my cell phone. She said: I'm sorry I keep calling, did you take D15 to school? Me: Yes Her: Did you take D10 her musical instrument for class? Me: Yes, I'm on my way right now Her: Ok. .. pause ..A tone of guilt in her voice.. Well, I'll talk to you later.
Me: Bye
I am agreeing with TJ right now. This is a woman who cannot love me, barely loves her kids, and did not even show the slightest hint of empathy FOR HER KIDS this morning but was more inclined to be mad at them for acting out.
And, I'm glad I put it out there about my feelings regarding the situation. I didn't say 'I want you back' I just said "I think Divorce is a bad idea". She can think it's great all she wants to. She's doing it alone. I am just not going to get in her way.
I am so pissed at her. What a f'ing child she is. There is NOTHING bad enough in our previous marriage that warrants this behavior towards the kids.
She's not the woman I want to be with, ever. When she becomes that woman it will be a blessing. Not right now though.
So, I am going to STOP doing 'independent' things to play the "we're separated" game. She can have EVERY weekend 'off' if she wants to. I will be there for the kids, I don't need to go out, I don't want to date, I only want to love my kids. My LRT will consist of just not being available to HER unless she approaches me first. She can get her strokes from OM over cell phone, Instant messenger or E-mail. Hope that works for her.
Quote: StrongNSassy: I'm still not convinced about the OM.
Hey, I went to W's friend who is a massage therapist to get a massage this morning. She was also in Hawaii with W and OM and doesn't like OM. She thinks W is way way off the 'spiritual' bandwagon because as she put it 'we are taught to keep emotionally disconnected from people we interact with on the table, and she did not do that. She is clearly out there and I can see how it is hurting her family and that shows me she has lost her integrity'.
She also mentioned that some of the others in the group of teachers who were at the retreat are all shocked at her actions. Many of them are behind me and the girls hoping this will work out eventually, which is a great thing to hear.
BUT, she also said this about OM:
Whenever she saw him there she noticed that when he was with his Girlfriend there, he would hug her but be looking around at the other women who were there. She said it made her feel very uncomfortable about him, like he was looking for someone else to hook up with. She said the other teachers didn't feel good about him either. The feeling is that he is full of himself and just uses women because he doesn't know how to really love them. Makes sense, his GF is needy and he dumps her when he meets my W, who at the time is ALSO needy.
Also, this friend simply doesn't believe he has really dumped GF.
Well, at least there are more people who actually KNOW my wife and are rooting for the family. I feel much better about that. There are only a couple of her friends who are in her court but they are also the ones who are messed up the most.
So, I asked her to pray for me that OM will NOT come to see W in February like she is trying to arrange. That he will get a SMALL bit of conscience and back off from her, let her go, stop this stuff.
Our friend said that if OM had actually MET me at the retreat or somewhere else, he wouldn't have done this stuff because, as she put it 'He would see that next to you, he is nothing and you are spiritually stronger'. I like that.
I wanted to add 'And I would have punched his lights out too.'
What a ride this is. I am better every day, thanks to people like TJ, BJ, nicola, AMyC, Bruce, Sassy and all the rest of you who keep me living in the light and stop me from falling into the dark abyss. Whether or not the marriage is healed I know for SURE now what I WANT in a wife.
Quote: I remember reading that there is no shortage of single divorced moms in the 35-45 age range but a huge shortage of single men in that age range. That's why so many divorced women with kids don't get married again.
Geez, thanks for the mood boost there, Frank!
I think you handled last night very well. Your D15 is certainly old enough to know what is going on; you don't want the D and why should you lie about it? I've told my D9 the same thing. If your W doesn't like it, it's probably due to guilt, so that too bad for her.
You sound angry but strong, which isn't a bad place to be. Your girls obviously love you and depend on you. Right now, you are their role model, not their mother, and they need to be able to count on you. Kudos to you for putting *them* first; if your W won't then you will have to.
I hope that you are having a good day.
Nicola
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
Quote: I remember reading that there is no shortage of single divorced moms in the 35-45 age range but a huge shortage of single men in that age range. That's why so many divorced women with kids don't get married again.
Wondering if you know my exH??? His exact words on several occassions to me...but he never said it again after he found out that I was dating a guy 13yrs younger than him (9yrs younger than me), who had more hair on his head that my exH could ever buy, and oh I won't bother going into the details...but let's just say there are other options than dating a man in my age range...age is just a state of mind. My friends call me Mrs. Robinson for a very good reason.
I work in a school. I have read your recent posts and I wanted to say that it might be advisable for you to call your daughters' school(s) and speak to either the Dean, Guidance counselor, or Assistant Principal about your daughters. You don't have to go into extreme detail, but just let them know that the girls are having a hard time with some family issues at home, and this will give them a heads up. They may need some extra support from school officials and teachers, especially your oldest. I have seen it many times; it helps if the people in charge of your kids at school are somewhat aware that things at home are a little crazy right now.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
