Moving here from 'newcomers'. Her 37, me 47 married 15 years together 20 years. 2 kids D10 and D15 My previous thread / sitch... my sitch / thread 1
Basically W has been unhappy for years due to my depression / drinking / overall crappy life. Has wanted to 'leave the marriage' several times over the past 3 years after attending spiritual retreats in Hawaii.
In October she went to one. called while she was there, I love you and stuff like that. But on the last day was really weird. Came back and was loving and happy to be home. Next day she told me 'I want a divorce, I met someone there who is my soul mate from a previous life'. She said our marriage was unhappy anyways and she needed to 'find herself' and wasn't intending on getting into a relationship but needed to be 'free'.
After 6 weeks of phone calls and e-mails to and from him (he lives 3,000 miles away) she went to see him to 'sort out her feelings' and came back 'totally in love, he is the one, on cloud 9. He says the same thing.
We still live in the same house, she is in the extra room. We are usually pretty coordial to each other but from time to time she will exhibit old 'loving' behaviors, rubbing my hair, saying things that were special to us. Read my old thread for some info.
Now, every day she is on her computer using Instant Messenger to talk to OM, sends and receives e-mail daily and talks on the phone every other day (trying to save money as I told her that her calls to him were costing us).
From the beginning I DB'ed and have her to the point to where she says to OM: "This is weird, I have a lover named (OM) and an soon to be ex husband who is trying to be my friend. Who would have thought..."
I don't know if this is an 'affair' since she asked for a divorce before it became 'real'. But she also did everything she could to MAKE it become real.
He professes his love for her, because they are soul mates - and 'knew this' when they looked into each others eyes in Hawaii at the retreat. He was there with his girlfriend of 3 years who he broke up with when he got home, but she still lives with him.
W said when she saw him she 'felt feelings that could not be described in words'. She lamented that she would rarely see him because of the distance, and the fact that she would never leave the kids. But they would 'get together' as often as they could.
So, that's my story so far. It is very hard for me to maintain the 'getting divorced while trying to DB and be a friend' attitude. Lcukily she doesn't share info about OM unless I ask her, which I stoppped doing after her visit.
so, today...
I had to do something to W's computer to update software and while I was there I saw an e-mail from W to OM (3,000 miles away) saying something like this:
He says in a previous mail:
"I think of you all the time, it's like I know where you are at any time and I feel you. I KNOW I LOVE YOU."
She replies:
"I know, I'M IN LOVE!!!!! and HE loves me TOO!!!! I'm so happy!!!"
I am having a really really hard time believing this is 'just an affair' and will burn out in 6 months or so. It sure seems like it keeps getting more and more serious! I'm scared as hell that there is no way it will end because it's so serious.
I keep thinking "Where will she find room in her heart for me, she is so far gone now?" I don't mean a damn thing to her. But we STILL live in the same house.
Anybody have experiences to share about this kind of stuff? Is it too far gone? Am I being stupid?
Frank...another home boy...whereabouts in LA? I grew up in Hollywood!!
Sorry you had to find us here but you are with a fantastic group of people.
First she is still in the house...so you can continue to DB your little heart out. Have you read DR and DB...both excellent reads. Spend a great deal of time in the Newcomers thread where you came from...at the top you will find a wealth of information from the coaches as well as members who have been there done that all before us...and many success stories.
3k miles that is a long ways away...what plans has she mentioned about actually going to be with him or vice versa. I've lived in Hawaii, it's a beautiful state set for great romance, but the reality of life there is very expensive. It could very well end up that she was caught up in the moment of it all and it will fizzle out...you did indicate that his GF is still living with him...so you never know if he is feeding your W full of stuff either...the GF has no reason to stick it out, she can just pack up and leave unless of course she has no idea what is going on.
I would first read all you can, continue to post...as you said you already have her thinking, wow he wants to be my friend, he's not angry about this...you already look great to her about this sitch...so keep up with the friendship. Monitor the results by starting a journal. Since you are living there she can see every single 180 that you do...so I would concentrate on those also.
Quote: Frank...another home boy...whereabouts in LA? I grew up in Hollywood!!
Actually I live in Thousand Oaks but most people outside L.A. wouldn't know where that is!
Quote: First she is still in the house...so you can continue to DB your little heart out. Have you read DR and DB...both excellent reads.
Yes, we actually went through something like this (no OM) 6 years ago and I DB'd and we got back together. What I failed to do was follow up and make the relationship stronger because I was still in a depression.
I have been DB'ing, like I said she is comfortable that we are 'friends' and I am not going to do anything to stop her actions. We get along and as I have said in some of my posts SOMETIMES she actually does things that are more than just 'polite' but are tiny displays of affection.
Quote: 3k miles that is a long ways away...what plans has she mentioned about actually going to be with him or vice versa.
He is in Connecticut and when she got back from the weekend visit we talked about the situation. Since she had gone with the intention of being 'friends' and came back as 'lovers', she told me that she probably could only see him 'occasionally' and was very depressed that they were really going to only be 'friends' since they couldn't have a relationship under these conditions. She plans on goign to his massage school occasionally and teaching for several days so they can be together too.
Quote:
It could very well end up that she was caught up in the moment of it all and it will fizzle out...you did indicate that his GF is still living with him...so you never know if he is feeding your W full of stuff either...the GF has no reason to stick it out, she can just pack up and leave unless of course she has no idea what is going on.
Well, the 'intensity' of the 'in love' feelings for her is pretty huge and it was 'instant' when they looked in each others eyes after she and another woman gave him a massage at this retreat (for massage therapists) and he opened his eyes and told her 'I love you'. This was on the last working day of the retreat. She decided he was her long lost soulmate right then. He basically has told her the same thing.
When she came back from Hawaii thought she only told me that she wanted to 'be single' to 'find herself' and 'grow'. She said she wasn't looking for a relationship and doesn't think she will ever get married again.
He broke up with his GF the same time she did with me, which was the day after returning from Hawaii. GF lives there still and he tells W in e-mails that she "won't get it that it is over" or 'is constantly spying on him to see who he is talking to'. I am guessing GF is looking for a place to live or there is some other reason she isn't moving out. She doesn't know who he is having a (relationship?) with but does know there is someone, according to him.
This is their 'relationship' as I have been able to piece it together from looking at e-mails and phone logs:
They talk on the phone maybe 1/2 hour every couple days. They e-mail every day, couple times a day. His e-mails usually consist of things he gets from web sites, love poems, jokes, friendship cards. IN fact, he actually subscibe to a maillist where he gets them sent daily and he cuts and pastes them into e-mails and sends them to her instead of just sending the link to the website.
Sometimes he actually says something on his own in the e-mails. When he does it has lately been either to complain about his Ex GF or his new business he is starting or his 'book' he is writing. He will also maybe write a 4 sentence paragraph about how he 'thinks of W all the time' or 'knows what she is doing or where she is since they are so connected spiritually' 'or knows that he really IS in love with her and it's so wonderful' or other things like that.
He usually doesn't sign his emails 'love, OM'. Just 'OM'. Although that may have changed.
She sends him e-mails that are replies to his messages, suporting his problems, or validating that she feels the same love, although much more intensly, or she may mention something going on here but rarely does. It's almost always asking him if he really does love her like he says, or her telling him in different ways how so in love she is with him and they are meant to be together.
She also has Instant Messenger now. That was his idea after their weekend together so they could save money on phone calls since 'they didn't talk much anyway when they called'.
I have only seen one instant message on her computer and it was just him saying he was going to bed because it was late, ending with 'love you!'. I use IM and you can spend a lot of time saying nothing in IM.
She spends her days doing the usual stuff around the house, taking the kids to school and other places. Of course now she is on the computer when she can be, and checks for e-mail 3-4 times a day. We used to watch TV together and have several favorite shows but since returning from Hawaii she has spent much of her evening free time in her room (she moved out of our room a week after returning from Hawaii) reading books she has from a book club. She rarely comes out to talk to me and I give her a lot of space, trying not to be available or in her face at all. When we do talk I am always lovingly detached and smile and joke a lot.
So, this is all I know. She is so convinced he is the one, and that some day they will be able to be together and live in spiritual bliss.
But what is stopping them now?
-- She says there is no man that would ever make her leave her kids (D10 and D15). She has always been afraid that she would be perceived as a bad mother so she over compensates. She is a very good mom and loves our kids.
-- He lives in Connecticut and is starting a massage business with a friend. So he has roots there. He doesn't like Connecticut as he used to live in Florida. She thinks the business won't do well since he has lots of problems right now with his partner, and he is being sued and other stuff. I'm sure that right now she is hopeful that it will fail and he will move to California.
That's what I know. I have my own conclusions and I would like to hear what others think about this situation too.
It's been an awful 6 weeks, culminating in her actually going to him and becoming lovers. Even though it hurts a lot I am doing the best I can to look at it as a process she has to go through, not as here leaving to be with her 'true love'. Although as time goes on I am seeing myself start to build a wall around my heart to sto my feelings for her, and I see her as betraying me and not worthy of MY love.
I need to get out more but I have spent a lot of time isolated or hanging out with married friends which we can't do right now. I am thinking of joining Match.com and advertising as just looking for firends to do things with. What do others do to meet others of the opposite sex to just make friends?
Well, you could take up a new hobby, join a gym, things like that, if you are just looking for new friends. Church groups are good, too. Maybe join a book club if you like to read.
I am sorry to hear of your W's actions. I understand very well. At least there is distance between them, and that may help deteriorate their R.
Just hang in there and try some new things like that to meet new people. I hope it helps get you through these tough days.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
Well, last nite we went to wifes dad's house for dinner. He's remarried and has 3 young kids. She was very very uptight and finally told me she had to tell them we were separated. I told her if she wanted to that's ok but to be fair to me she also had to tell them about her affair.
So, she did. She basically said to them "we're separated, and I met someone else".
They have never been very supportive of her, and they did the same crap they would do, "well these things happen, we will be here for both of you, blah blah."
Wife was pretty emotionally neutral durnig the whole discussion.
When we got home she was pretty angry. Step-mother told her privately "I can see you have really, really hurt Frank, so be careful he isn't spiteful, maybe you should get a lawyer, etc." Father in law told me 'she was just like her mother, runs away' and 'I need to stay in touch and involved with his family since he is my kids grandfather'. Amazing how his issues from his divorce 17 years ago came through.
Wife said that she felt like she was being judged, was a 'whore' for having an affair and that if I wanted her to move out she would. I was pretty hurt, as I have been, so I agreed that maybe she should. We talked about her moving out, how would it work, what about taking care of the kids, etc. She said she "Frank, I don't love you any more". Then corrected herself and said 'I am not in love with you, I love you in a different way'.
We went to bed as it was getting late, and I went to her room to tell her that I didn't think she was a 'whore' but that she was always a person of integrity who was coping with a tough time in her life and doing what she thinks is right for her.
Next morning we went for a walk together so we could talk. She had thought about moving out and was angry because she didn't think it was fair to the kids since her being gone would hurt them a lot. I also thought the same thing and said I was just hurt and angry and didn't want her to move either. I said if I couldn't stand living here I would move out. So, for now we will live together still.
We also talked about how our old relationship was crappy. She said she had lost respect for me a couple years ago because I stayed in my depression so long, and was drinking, rarely happy and not helping myself or letting her help me. She said that I was NOT the man she married. She had decided for the last couple years she would stick it out and try to make it work but finally couldn't do it any more. She felt that by leaving, that was the best chance for us to heal ourselves. Meeting OM and feeling the feelings she has been in with him was not expected but gave her the energy to move forward and leave. Even though I have done everything I needed to do to fix myself now, she had already given up and just doesn't want to try to make it work any more.
We stopped during our walk and she stood close, looked me in the eyes and said 'I am letting you go, I am severing the threads that hold us together.' She asked me to do the same for her and I told her I did. I said that our old relationship was dead, and anything from now on is what we make of it. I told her it's very important to me that we learn to be friends, that having that relationship between us was good for our kids, and ultimately for us both since we have so much history and experience between us. I also feel it is important to me to learn how to love unconditionally, without my ego involved. She said she thinks so too, and that she really does believe that we will be much better off in our lives, and better for each other if we are not in a comitted relationship. I agreed with her on this because it has been so obvious that our old relationship was unhealthy. I stopped myself from saying 'maybe we'll be together again some day' and just stuck with the idea of learning to become friends. Right now that seems to be all that is left for us.
So, we have made a commitment to learn to be friends while we are living together.
As we were walking some more she asked me about what I did on friday night. I went out and didn't come home till 1:30 am. I also dressed up nice. She asked me if I had a date? I said "hmm, you're jealous!" and she said 'No just curious'. Then she said "I would be very happy if you found somebody to date". I told her I went out with some friends, and that right now I wasn't going to date anybody because I wasn't emotionally able. She said she knows I'll find someone some day. I told her that it would be someone like the person she is becoming.
We talked more about how to be 'friends' and she said that she felt very guilty about how she has been feeling good while everyone else is feeling bad. OM has been an emotional high she feels very guilty for having. She feels like she shouldn't be 'happy' while everyone around her is hurting. She said she doesn't know how long it will last and she want's to feel it as much as she can because she missed feeling 'in love' and thought she would never feel it again. I told her that she really deserved to feel these feelings and she should let herself. She started to cry and said she didn't think she deserved it after what she has done but is trying to live in the moment. I think she feels on some level that what she is doing is wrong, and is not the right way to end a marriage.
She said we never connected together on a deeper level because neither of us knew how to, which is pretty true. Our family backgrounds were very emotionally superficial and we always had a small barrier to totally letting go and feeling the deeper love. I think she still feels that way about herself but the 'in love' feelings make her think she is getting beyond it. OM is apparently also in the same boat, hasn't been feeling his life, in a relationship he wanted to end but couldn't. Apparently his (ex) girlfriends brother died recently from drinking himself to death and OM has had to be supportive of her while still ending the relationship. She still lives in the same house with him.
We talked about doing more things together 'as a family' and she agreed, and also said that we do need to do things on our own too.
Talking about being 'friends' I said we have a barrier between us that was starting to come down until she went to go see OM last weekend, and now she has built a wall between us. She said she wanted to change that, so we could learn to forgive each other for hurting each other for so long. She agreed to go see our counselor together so we can address the old hurts and forgive them, then we will able to be friends and move on.
The rest of our talk was pretty light hearted. We had a few laughs and talked about the kids, and how our counselor told me how strong they are and that they will get through this and not be permanantly scarred like we were by our parents problems. Counselor says we have been excellent parents given our childhoods and our lives.
So what does this mean to me? Saying to her 'I let you go' was hard because I had to mean it. From her perspective there is no getting back together, there is just moving apart, being as friendly as possible. She's still hurt and angry but wants to do what needs to be done to heal that. She pretty much blames me for most of it, which I can understand since no matter how you look at it I didn't take care of myself and she suffered for it. That's something I have to forgive myself for. As far as OM is concerned, she has her own doubts as to how real it is or how long it will last but she will hold on as long as she can because of the feelings she want's to experience. My feeling is that if she has doubts, then it's not as important as I have been thinking it was.
The more we try to control another, the less control we have. I keep thinking 'if only I wait it out...' but right now I am not in a place where I can risk myself emotionally. I need to learn to give and receive love on a deeper level than I have so far in my life. I think that alone will be the factor that prevents us from ever being in our marriage again because she will always sense it if it is missing in me.
I guess I'm not really sure what this all means. It seems like a final 'goodbye' to all that was between us, and starting from scratch with no intentions other than to just get along as reasonable friends. I hope the counseling will help us to forgive the past. I'm sad because I feel like it really ended forever today.
I would like to hear what others who have been in this kind of sitch think.
... I guess what I'm reading into this is that even though she doesn't think OM is her long term love, she also doesn't think we will ever have a relationship that is more than friends because she doesn't think I will ever be able to feel more deeply than I do now. And even if she did think so she is closing the door and looking for her future to be somewhere else...
I guess I could think that it's just because of the intense 'in love' feelings she is into right now, but she sure has a LOT of resentment and anger over the past couple years being so negative for us.
W decided we should get the family xmas tree tonite and decorate. D10 got terrified to stand on a chair to put the angel on top. She also wouldn't get on my shoulders. Finally had to get a tall ladder for her. D15 got all pissed at D10 for acting that way and I took her aside and told her to give her a break because the emotions of our sitch are taking their toll on her. She got mad and said 'why do I have to, she's old enough to get it together' and stomped to her room and said she didn't want to decorate tree.
Wife didn't show any emotion or act as if it phased her in the least. Asked me if I needed her to talk to D15, I said 'no, this is between her and me'. D15 came back down and pasted on a happy attitude and rejoined the decorating.
All of our ornaments either were made by our kids or were gifts over the years. So every single one has some sentimental value. After about 1/2 hour I just couldn't take the hurt, looking at all the things that represented the family, and went upstairs to my bathroom to cry. I came back down after about 10 minutes and W asked 'if I was ok'. I said 'I am fine'. She still isn't fazed at all. After all the decorating is done she came to sit on the couch after putting a pillow between her and I. D10 had a sprig of mistletoe and held it over us saying 'you have to kiss!'. W said 'no we don't have to' and D15 said 'They aren't together any more so they don't kiss!'. D10 got quiet and walked away.
I guess I am amazed at how W can be happy and put all the stuff on the tree witout any sadness about the end of our xmases. I said to her "I'm amazed at how you can remember each ornament and what it means to our family, how we got it or who made it" and she just calmly said, 'yeah, there are a lot of memories there'.
So, today she 'let me go, set me free from her life', went through the motions of xmas tree decorating and basically is going on as if nothing is wrong, but is 'concerned' about the rest of us taking this well.
I can't DB this, it hurts too much to put on a smile. She just really doesn't want to be here or ever even try to fix the family. She's 'in love' and likes it. She doesn't ever want to try to be married again.
You had a really tough day, Frank. Try to remember that your W is now an alien. She is not herself. She is in a fog. That's why she is so oblivious to the damage all around her. My C suggested that I imagine my H and ILs in wheelchairs. That they are disabled. It allows me to summon up some compassion for them when I do this. I remind myself that I'm dealing with emotionally unbalanced people. It does help me cope.
You had an emotionally draining day. Try to hang in there. I pray tomorrow will be better for you.
Spitfire23
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. Mark Twain
Quote: She felt that by leaving, that was the best chance for us to heal ourselves.
My H has said this to me, too. The good news is, I guess the really do care about us. Plus, she's not leaving or asking you to go, so that's a good sign.
Quote: 'I am letting you go, I am severing the threads that hold us together.'
This sounds like it was rehearsed. Does she really mean it? Frank, she really does sound like she's in a total fog. Will she come out of it? I don't know. I don't think OM is actually that big a deal; I think it's more about you and her, not him and her.
Quote: So, we have made a commitment to learn to be friends while we are living together.
I know this will be terribly hard. I can barely manage it w/ H and we're not living together. But at least you've agreed to *learn* about it; that means it can be fluid and you can set the rules as you go along.
Quote: She agreed to go see our counselor together so we can address the old hurts and forgive them, then we will able to be friends and move on.
This is great news! It may lead to "just" being friends and splitting up amicably (worst case) or it could lead to a whole new R. This is really good, Frank.
Quote: I keep thinking 'if only I wait it out...' but right now I am not in a place where I can risk myself emotionally.
I know what you mean. I am backing way off for my own sake; I just can't can't take the stress anymore.
Quote: It seems like a final 'goodbye' to all that was between us, and starting from scratch with no intentions other than to just get along as reasonable friends.
Yes, but I think that has to be done in order for you to move forward at all. It is so, so hard, but it is actually a positive step. Many of us are in the sitch where our Ss want to be "friends." Part of me feels like H wants to have his cake and eat it, too, but another part of me feels like this is where we have to be to start again.
I'm really sorry that you're going through this. As another poster wrote, this was a tough day; I hope you had a good sleep and feel better today.
Nicola
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
