chrome, a question: since as NOP pointed out, you got some good results... what was it that plunged you into the depths? Not saying you shouldn't have plunged into the depths... just what was it specifically that seemed to send you down?
Oh, I just read that you said you would get to that... okay...
OK. Two major topics here, how things are going with the W and why I was (and still am) in the dumps.
First, thanks again for the suggestion NOPkings, I think it did go well. I have been more agressive and up front about kissing her, and although she has put me off a few times, I haven't let it get to me and kept at her. One of her excuses was that her lips were chapped, and I could see how that would make an all out kiss uncomfortable. So I waited till today and pressed her again, asking first if her lips felt better. They did but she still put me off citing one thing or another. I gave her the "you don't know what you are missing." Later I tried again and she gave me a little bit, but when I asked for more she put me off. I just walked away. Then later she was lying on the floor talking and playing with the newborn. I came and straddled her (not laying on top of her, I'm big enough to completely straddle her without touching her, didn't want you guys to think I was getting too physical). I whispered in her ear "It is so beautiful the way you love our children." Unfortunately one of the twins decided to yell at us right as I was saying the last thing so I had to repeat part of it, which defeated the impact I'm sure. But after repeating it, I hopped up and walked away. A few minutes later, she picked the newborn up to hand him to me (she had something to do) and said "does daddy want little XXX" I replied, "only if I get a little mama too." She bent over and kissed me a little harder (still not passionate, french or anything) and said "was that better than a peck?" I said "absolutely, but I still want more." She said "later." I'm hoping for more later, but we'll see. We are going to be up late anyway baking xmas cookies so maybe I'll get "lucky." I am going to shoot for at least 3 passionate kisses a day NOP. All in all, I think the kissing thing is going pretty well.
On another note, we did have some R convos. I decided to break the ice about sex, not ask for it at that minute, but just get her to talk about it. I asked about frequency and she said that she would like to start at once a week. I'm ok with that, but let her know that I will be working to increase that frequency. She then made an interesting comment. She said that she felt it was her duty to give affection and sex. I tried to tell her that that is NOT how I wanted her to feel about it, but I think I may have miffed it somehow, because she didn't seem convinced. I tried to talk to her about the differences in expectation of sex in a healthy marriage versus expecting sex from your wife, but she translated that into expect versus demand. I guess I didn't get the sublety across. I tried to give some examples, i.e. I said that I don't do the twins breakfast in the mornings or their bath at night out of a sense of duty, I do it because I love her and I know it will make her day easier. She gave a little flicker of understanding but I'm not completely sure that she made the connection. Sometimes I feel like I jump around too much in the points that I make. Anyway, I also mentioned that I was not expecting her to have this huge desire for me all the time we have sex, sometimes it can just be an act of love, a gift of sorts to me. I said I am going to work on helping you increase your desire for sure, but I'm not going to expect every time to be this passionate "night to remember." Again, I couldn't tell if it sunk in or not, maybe I was bombarding with too many topics. Overall though, I didn't see any real heavy resistance, just perhaps confusion. Maybe with time it will sink in.
Later on, I started at it again (you'll understand why when I explain about why I was in the dumps), and asked her about what she thought emotionally connected meant. She said that it meant that she understood me and knew what made me happy. Know that I mention it, I meant to ask her about doing what makes me happy, and about feeling happy herself. I guess I'll have to get back to that later. Anyway, I asked her what does she think will make me happy. She said (1) affection (2) mental stimulation (3) having a purpose in life. I did respond that those three things definitely make me happy. I went on and talked about how another big thing for me was being happy in the moment. I gave an example baking the xmas cookies. Far too often, this traditional event turns into an all-night affair, with lots of arguments, moaning and groaning, and bad memories. I said, being happy in the moment means being playful and doing your best not to worry about small things and enjoy what you are doing. For example, its not really all that bad if we get into a flour fight, or if a batch of cookies burns, etc. Don't let it get you down or be a source of argument. Again, I don't know how much of that convo sunk in, or if it was just a waste of time. We'll see.
For the last part. I left this for last because I thought I would build up momentum to carry me through, but I am chickening out as I write this. Let me just see if I can get this out in brief statements. Went to a conference. OW was there. No, nothing happened between us. Now I am in the dumps. As you might well imagine, there is a lot more to it in terms of specific thoughts and feelings, I'm just not ready to open up yet. Give me some time.
I am supposed to see the self-esteem coach tomorrow. I plan on going into all the sordid details with him, especially since it has kicked my self-esteem WAAAYY back. Maybe after I sort some things out with him I'll be able to post here.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I'll give one more tidbit of info, although I'm sure it will lead to some cyber-boards upside my head. I did find out through mutual friend (whatever you do, don't bash her, she is just trying to help both of us which is an extremely difficult task, she is a great person) that OW's H has been making a lot of threats lately and things appear to be heading toward a crisis. So my natural tendency to want to help people has really kicked in, especially since I know I am the cause of the problem. Well maybe, I may have just been a catalyst to an already bad situation. Anyway, I know that there is nothing I can do to help, even trying would just make things worse. But it is still killing me inside. I feel like I am the auto mechanic that worked on the brakes on a car that later wrecked and now I am waiting, wondering if anyone will survive the wreck.
Anyway, that is one thing that has been plaguing my mind lately.
I'm sorry I haven't been as much help to everyone here as you guys have been to me. I thought I was getting strong enough to get to the point where I could be a help, but I've been set back quite a bit by this. I'll get through this though, like I did before.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
OK. I've had enough of this. Somebody said it to me earlier, spending time thinking about the EA is just "wasted mental energy", energy that I need for repairing my relationship. So I'm just going to drop it. I don't want to think about it anymore. I said a prayer to help OW and her family through their crisis, and a prayer to protect my family from harm should any spill out of it. That's the best I can do. I'll probably still mention a few things to the C tonight, just so he is aware and can help with any lingering negative thoughts I had, but beating myself up over this is a waste. I fell down, we all do, and I just need to pick myself up and move on.
I know some of you will probably want to help, and I do appreciate that help, but if my responses to your responses ( ) are rather short and to the point, just know that I am trying to put it in the past. Thanks everyone for listening.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
This is where I would differ from you were I in your situation. I wonder if your guilt is triggered by the increased knowledge you have gained from this board, your counselor and your attempts to repair your relationship with your wife. Had you not changed the course you were on at the time you had the EA, would you have felt differently? I am sure you would feel guilt and remorse for what is happening to her, but at the time, weren’t you a little more self involved and in a devil-may-care attitude with your wife? Remember how you thought you were on the verge of leaving the marriage?
Had things blown up in the OW’s marriage at that time, what would you have done? I’m willing to bet there is a certain part of you that would want to jump in, rescue her and run off together, right? Well now you’ve evolved past that. For whatever reason she does not seem to have done the work on the R that you have. So she is floundering and you are finding your direction. That is not your fault, nor is it anything you could change. In a different time in the future, maybe you can help others, but not until the home front is secured.
Unfortunately it is a cruel world out there. I lived for a while in S. America and saw what true poverty really is (I don’t believe there is true poverty in his country.). There is little one person can do to change this and attempts to do so can impoverish your own family. Sometimes we must be selfish for the sake of our family. If we gain enough excess to help others, then fine. But you don’t have any excess to give right now. You are still in deficit.
The OW is in deficit too, but hers is of her own doing. You cannot rescue her without taking from your wife and kids. This is a tough dilemma, but your understanding of this is a consequence of your improved knowledge and widening compassion not only for others, but for yourself.
You did what you believed was the right thing at the time. So did she. You are currently doing the right thing AS YOU KNOW IT AT THIS VERY MINUTE. But you cannot know if in the future you will look back and see yourself making a mistake RIGHT NOW. So how could you or she have known the mistakes you were committing at that time in the past? You acted on the best knowledge you had at the moment. The problem is that knowledge was so incomplete, BASED ON WHAT YOU KNOW NOW. But that is not your fault. To me, if anyone is to blame, it is your parents for failing to teach you the lessons needed to avoid that pitfall in the first place. Only they could have possessed the knowledge to warn you that such traps exist in life. Do not feel guilty.
Quote: I may have just been a catalyst to an already bad situation
If her marriage is/was in trouble, she would have found a catalyst-- whether or not you were around. You two found each other because both of you had your antennae up and your channels open. If she hadn't met you, she would have met someone else. If there hadn't been a fissure in her marriage, she never would have noticed you, or you would have been strictly friends with no "vibes." No one from outside can CAUSE that fissure. Likewise with you... if you decide right now that no matter how you feel, you will not be receptive to any "feelers" or "vibes" from another woman, then this can never happen again to you. Now you are aware, and, I promise you, it will not happen again unless you consciously choose it.
This is why:
It's very much the way we teach children that if they feel "funny" when they are with certain people that they should trust those feelings and run away. And of course, we teach them not to let people touch them in ways that make them feel funny. If a five-year old gets weird feelings when Uncle Zeke's hand lingers on his little tushie longer than necessary, don't you think a 35-year old KNOWS somewhere inside himself what's going on when a woman stands in front of him and fingers his tie or his lapel or comments on how tired he's looking, and asks how are things at home? There are ways a woman can do that that are perfectly innocent, and there are ways that are fraught with vibes. (Same goes for men.) Maybe the first time, you can convince yourself you really didn't know what was going on, but not the second time, or the twentieth. Stuff like this should send up red flags in an adult just like the funny stuff should in children. Sorry... I got up on my "affairs don't just happen" soapbox again.
What I mean is, if her channels were open, sooner or later she would have met a guy who was receptive to an EA or even a PA. It just so happened that your paths crossed. You didn't DO this to her or make it happen. She was open... she might have connected with any number of people. You aren't responsible for her actions, only for yours.
Okay, before I get the cyber-smacks, I'm not saying that it's okay to run around trying to seduce someone... I mean that you can only control what YOU do, not what someone else does-- that means the bad things you/they do and the good things you/they do. We're not powerful enough to make others do what they don't want to do-- I should think this board provides plenty of evidence of that.
Chromo said: ------------------------------------------------------- OK. I've had enough of this. Somebody said it to me earlier, spending time thinking about the EA is just "wasted mental energy", energy that I need for repairing my relationship. -------------------------------------------------------
You had an emotional affair because you chose to. It didn't sneak up on you, there were no geo-magnetic forces involved, and some other Chromo in another Kaku string of realities didn't cause you to do it. You decided to cross a line and share secrets with this woman. She is no friend, and what you have done has helped damage her marriage, and yours. Period.
If the affair was recent, I think you should tell your wife about it. For sure, I think you should write this woman a short, to the point, non-emotional, "no contact" letter, simply stating that you are dedicated to your wife and that what you did was wrong and you want no further contact with her under any circumstances.
My last paragraph will draw nay-sayers, but it is what you should consider doing, and there is a long track record of good outcomes supporting the suggestion.
Once the affair is properly dead and dealt with, then I think any additional energies invested in it is a waste of time. One thing is for certain, the affair IS still affecting your marriage. Marriages with more than two participants rarely succeed.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Some more VERY bad things have happened today. Unfortunately they have happened partially because I reacted badly to earlier situations so I am really spinning around now. I really want to tell all, but I am so afraid that it will just make things worse. Please somebody help me. I don't know if I'm going to make it this time.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
You ARE going to make it Chrome. Don't even think like that. You are an amazing, intelligent, thoughtful man and so many people care about you. I'm so sorry you are going through such a hard time now It may help to share with others what is going on. Gain more perspective, etc. It's up to you. LFL
) are rather short and to the point, just know that I am trying to put it in the past. Thanks everyone for listening.