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I gotta think that if you can start to balance the power in your R, it will help you. It doesn't have to be this....

I'm totally open to suggestions if you have any ideas on how else to balance things in the R. I haven't really "strategized" until now....I've just been doing what comes natural and seems reasonable. But I'm sort of at the last resort at this point. If I'm considering walking out the door, then I really have nothing to lose.

Don't stop coming back here for support.

Are you kidding? You're not going to get rid of me that easily!! Seriously, you know how emotions can be and there will be much turbulence ahead I'm sure. And a great deal of disappointment if things don't work out the way I'm hoping.

I still wouldn't buy a new house.

I tend to agree. Thing is, I really need some space. I am staying in a room that is only big enough for a daybed-it used to be our study and it didn't even have a door on it, it was just meant to be sort of an open room. No closet. No dresser. No mirror. My clothes are sort of hanging over chairs, whatever. I still use the walk-in closet in the master bedroom and my dresser is still in there, but I don't have a space to call my own that has all my things. A place I can feel comfortable and safe and retreat to if I need to. My bed also isn't big enough for me and the kids if they wake up and need to sleep with someone. Right now, S5 gets up just about every night and comes to sleep on the loveseat (I am currently sleeping on the couch). So, I really need to have room if he or D2 chooses to come and sleep with me. The way things are now, they'll just go to Daddy since he has more room. If they want to sleep with Daddy, that will have to be fine, but I don't want the reason to be because it is a default since I don't have a big enough bed.

The biggest problem with actually moving is that the land we were looking at is pretty far out in the country. If H and I were to split, I would not like to feel that I needed to remain in the country or else my kids would be so far away from me.
So, our other option is to rent for a year and have our current house completely remodeled, a second floor added. We like living in Norfolk and we have a big enough yard for an inground pool and hot tub. I'm thinking we just stay where we are and remodel. It would probably be cheaper because we have the land, foundation and structure. But I could be totally wrong on that.
I also think that if we remain in the house we're in now and H and I had to split that I would be the only one that could afford it on my own and so I would probably get to stay in the house which would work to my benefit. Right now, somebody would have to carry H out kicking and screaming because he would be way better off staying than renting as it is the kids' home PLUS the house payment is half of what rent would be. So, right now, everything is to his benefit. Remodeling (unbeknownst to him) would tip the scales in my favor I think.

Dear Heather

I would like to say how much I admire you for coming on these boards and working on saving your marriage. From reading your thread, I began to understand that ultimately it really isn't about the affair or the ow/om; it really is about the relationship that a husband and wife share.

I have debated over many weeks whether to write what I am about to say. I hesitated mainly because I did not want to give the wrong idea or to, in any way, hurt you. However I decided to write hoping that you would take my comments as they are intended - simply a way of presenting a different tangent. My comments may or may not be valid but I thought by stating them - I am at least giving you an opportunity to verify your own thinking (by knowing that my remarks are completely off base).

ok enough waffling.

I have been reading your threads quite regularly. I empathise with your frustrations.

I was just thinking however - is there another way to look at the situation. As you wrote, I began to wonder if my H would be thinking along the same terms and feeling the way you do. This got me wondering how your H may be feeling.

Please do not misunderstand me - I completely agree that a lot of your husband's actions are completely unacceptable and undermine any respect for you.

I was thinking; however, that your H does not have the benefit of these boards or the way of thinking we all have come to appreciate. He is still struggling with the fact that he was betrayed. I am not sure he, even if wants to, knows how to get beyond that.

I could, honestly, see myself using my H for s@x and not wanting the kissing (This is before the benefit of this board). I could see wanting my H to move out of the bedroom and into the spare room.

I think also, somewhere in your thread the issue of how long it has been since the A and how your H should be moving on from it. When I read this (apologies if this is not from your thread), I put myself again in your H's shoes and I was wondering - does your H truly, truly know it is over and that you have no feelings for the om? For me this is one of the major things. You have mentioned that your marriage before the A was perhaps not quite how you would have desired it to be. My marriage was sinking before the A and now I know that for me a major issue has been Hs feelings for ow. I dont want to come between them (yet I hate that H had the A). I know that because of all the lying and the betrayal that the A inherently entails, trust is a major issue for me. Maybe your H feels the same way? How have you tried to regain your Hs trust? I remember that this was an issue for you in some of your posts - where H dictated where you could go etc. I know that without the benefit of these boards I probably would have reacted in the same way.

I guess the reason I am writing is because, having been on the other side of the betrayal, I truly empathise with your H and I also feel that maybe his view of all that has happened in your M may be just as valid to him as yours is to you.

Sophie

Hi Sophie, thanks so much for taking the time to give me your perspective!!

I have debated over many weeks whether to write what I am about to say. I hesitated mainly because I did not want to give the wrong idea or to, in any way, hurt you.

Just the fact that you would care that much and that you've taken the time to keep up with my situation tells me that your intentions are good and I'm glad to have you on my thread!

He is still struggling with the fact that he was betrayed. I am not sure he, even if wants to, knows how to get beyond that.

You're right. I have had a recurring feeling throughout all of this that many people (maybe even some of the LBSs on this board) would react the same way my H has if their partner had been immediately remorseful. It's just that often, the LBS doesn't have the opportunity to act the way H is because there is often feelings for the OP and the LBS doesn't want to drive their partner into their arms. My H knows he doesn't have to worry about that. So, on some levels, I know some of my H's behavior isn't unheard of. The first chapter of "After the Affair" really helped me understand how he is feeling.

I was wondering - does your H truly, truly know it is over and that you have no feelings for the om?

I'm pretty sure he does truly, truly know that. There was nothing between me and OM, he told me things I needed to hear and there was some kissing. There was no genuine affection or even like on my behalf toward him. I saw him about five times and I still can't figure out why it went on even that long. I think because I was just numb. But I don't think H disbelieves that OM is out of my life. He may be worried on the other hand, that I will jump into bed with the next man who talks nice to me, which might be why he is nervous to let me go out in social situations without him.

I know that because of all the lying and the betrayal that the A inherently entails, trust is a major issue for me. Maybe your H feels the same way?

Very much so.

How have you tried to regain your Hs trust?

Aside from the dinner I had with Burgbud and Koshka in an Irish pub, I have not set foot in a bar without H since I told him what happened. I have not really gone out in any kind of social setting at all. He has the password to my email account. I've offered him my cell phone records. I moved the computer out into the living room. If I am going to be late coming home from work, I call him and let him know.

his view of all that has happened in your M may be just as valid to him as yours is to you.

I really don't want to invalidate his feelings. I really don't. I only want him to at least say that he can see us getting back to normal at some point or else let me go. I understand that it is entirely possible he may never get over the betrayal. That would be something I would have to live with and take responsibility for.

I do want to save my M. However, H and I seem to have different views of what that means. Apparently, to him it's having a pleasant relationship where doing things as a family is enjoyable. He doesn't seem to have any real need for a M right now outside of sex. And he can't seem to tell me if he ever will. I can't define a M as anything other than people who share kisses and a bed. Maybe I'm focusing too much on that, but I just can't imagine going the rest of my life without even being able to kiss my H. And the fact that he would be willing to carry those things out forever....well, to me, that's not love. And I guess that is truly the bottom line. It's not necessarily that I *can't* go without kisses.....I suppose if I had to, I could. It's more that I *can't* spend the rest of my life with someone who doesn't love me anymore. Does that make sense?

Remember how I said I am starting to think that H's LL is Acts of Service?
Well, his truck has a flat tire. He flys in tonight at 7pm and he plans to take a cab (because he won't ride in my car).
Since my brother is staying with me, I can borrow his truck and put the car seats in there and pick H up in his truck. Would that be considered a good act of service? Should I do that do you think? He would really love it if the kids could be at the airport waiting for him and it would be a total surprise because he assumes I will not be there. That do you think it would say to him if I came?

I'm not dying, H is not being outwardly mean to me.

What?!?! A few posts ago didn't you express angst over H getting physical with you if you just moved back into your (plural) bedroom. I got the impression that H had gotten physical w/you in the past. True or did I misinterpret?

"I know you won't be happy if we split. But Mommy won't be happy if we stay together. My happiness is more important, you see?"

Now I think your brain washed. To tell your children that your leaving you marriage b/c your not happy kind of leaves out the part that daddy won't let you back into the bedroom, drinks too much and likes looking at other women naked doesn't it?

H told me yesterday that he watched Spanglish. . .He said "I saw a lot of myself in him".

Maybe he we referring to the scene where Adam Sandler drinks too much.

One of the things H tells me is that I set the tone for our R. That if I'm pleasant, then we're pleasant as a couple. If I'm not pleasant, then neither is our R.

And how does H set the tone for your R? If he's drunk is he pleasant and so are you? If he's looking at porn is he pleasant towards you and so your pleasant towards him? Heather, MWD does say it takes one to tango but it seems like every misstep gets blamed on you. H does take the lead here sometimes, but he doesn't acknowledge it.

Am I supposed to make myself miserable to make you happy?

And my question to H, "Is Heather supposed to make herself miserable to make you happy?"

Heather, you've posted a lot in the past few days and I've been involved w/DD's. You sound like your heart and mind and soul are going thru some turbulance. What I want to point out in my replies is that I feel you are taking too much responsability for the state of your R. If your H was drunk 6 nights a week pre-A, then he really wasn't paying that much attention to you. Your response to that wasn't the correct one, but you are remorseful and God knows that almost any of the LBS' on this BB would give their right arm for a remorseful WAS. What I want to say is it's not all you! H has to be accountable for what he has contributed to the sitch and so far it seems like he's cut down his drinking from 6 nights to 2, but still carries on w/porn and his emotional punishment. You've rolled up your sleeves and carried the lions share of the work to repair your R/M. You are to be commended for that. You are fighting the good fight and you should be proud of yourself for that.

It's too late to offer my opinon on the flat tire, but I would have just had the tire changed, called H and told him I changed the tire for him and left it at that.

Be thankful for your children and brother coming to live close by this Thanksgiving.

A few posts ago didn't you express angst over H getting physical with you if you just moved back into your (plural) bedroom.

Yes. When I say he's not being outwardly mean to me, I guess I mean in general we're getting along. But I know from past experience that by trying to move back into our bedroom that I would be pushing his buttons and he would not respond well. Last time, it was physical. He didn't hit me at any time though. It's hard to explain. He put his foot under my head and kept bouncing my head~that kind of thing. He got down on the bed and just stared at me. He turned the TV on really loud. Then he tried to carry me out. It was humiliating and of course after just a few minutes of that, I willingly left the room.

Maybe he we referring to the scene where Adam Sandler drinks too much.



You sound like your heart and mind and soul are going thru some turbulance. What I want to point out in my replies is that I feel you are taking too much responsability for the state of your R.

I know, I just want to fix it. Maybe that's my problem. His feelings are his feelings, his reactions are his reactions and I just can't fix it. I've been focusing too much on our R. You know the overfunctioner/underfunctioner theory? Well, by overfunctioning I've probably been allowing him to underfunction. I think I just need to let it go and stop trying to fix things.

My brother ended up leaving early for his visit to MI, so I couldn't borrow his truck anyway. But when H told me how much it sucked at the airport with us not being there, I let H know that I had planned to come to the airport but my brother unexpectedly left early and I could not.

This morning, I asked H if he wanted to go to Kohl's tonight b/c I need to find table linens for T-giving and he said "I don't care where we go as long as I'm with you guys". He actually included me in that sentence. Wow. We'll see how the relationship progresses or backslides once he realizes that I'm not all that receptive to sexual advances anymore. I'm thinking that things will get pretty cold for a while as he tries to get me to "change back" to being willing to have sex.

"I don't care where we go as long as I'm with you guys"

That had to make you feel good! I nice way to start off the holiday weekend!

We'll see how the relationship progresses or backslides once he realizes that I'm not all that receptive to sexual advances anymore. I'm thinking that things will get pretty cold for a while as he tries to get me to "change back" to being willing to have sex.

It sounds like you've prepared yourself for a bumpy ride and its good that you are prepared. It sounds like this is a boundary for you and I don't think that it is unreasonable to be asked t be kissed on the lips before ML and for it to happen in the marital bed and then for the 2 of you to sleep there afterwards.

Stay strong Heather.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Heather,

I'm a dunce. I never seem to notice when someone's thread locks up. I was talking with BurgBud tonight. When he brought me up to date on your sitch I realized you must be on a new thread.

Good luck on your mission. I hope this will be the thing that opens H's eyes to what he's throwing away.

(K climbs up on his soapbox.)

Quote:

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It's hard to explain. He put his foot under my head and kept bouncing my head~that kind of thing. He got down on the bed and just stared at me. He turned the TV on really loud. Then he tried to carry me out. It was humiliating

---

It's not hard to explain. There's even a word specifically for it. "Abuse." It might be hard to accept, but that's the truth. The "no kissing" shtick is abuse, too. You deserve better. (K steps off the soapbox.)

I read "After the Affair" and STBXW wouldn't. She read DR only up to the chapter on infidelity. Both try to explain how the betrayed partner feels. Each recommends forgiveness. H must forgive you, and you must forgive yourself, if your M will ever be a real, loving M. You can't make him forgive, but will you forgive yourself, whether he wants you to or not?

I hope your Thanksgiving was good. Thanks for posting kind words on my thread again.

Oh, yeah, before I forget. Written anything poetic lately?

Thanks,

K

Hi all, I need to post a little update, I've just been really busy at work. I find it easiest to post during the day because by the time night rolls around, my thoughts aren't as clear....tired...


It's not hard to explain. There's even a word specifically for it. "Abuse." It might be hard to accept, but that's the truth. The "no kissing" shtick is abuse, too.

Yes, the situation was definitely abusive. I can't and don't see any reason to deny that. Overall though, I have a hard time saying my relationship is abusive or that H is abusive in general. Some people would probably say it is, although my tolerance seems a bit higher because I know he would not have acted in these ways before I did what I did. I feel responsible, so it's hard.

H must forgive you, and you must forgive yourself, if your M will ever be a real, loving M. You can't make him forgive, but will you forgive yourself, whether he wants you to or not?

I'm beginning to accept that my M might not ever be anything that would make another person envious. I have high expectations for myself and my life so this is really a struggle for me to accept, but I'm getting there.
Not being a religious person or even very deeply spiritual, forgiveness is sort of a foreign concept. I may have forgiven myself, I can't really tell. I'm not sure what that means. Even if I had, I would still have bad days right? I think that's probably the case here. For the most part, I don't beat myself up about it. But I have my days.

I did have a good holiday and I sincerely hope all my DB friends did as well. It felt long and lazy, which is just what I needed!
I think I've talked H into remodeling our home vs buying the land. That is good news all the way around, whether we stay together or ultimately split. I don't think H would be able to afford the new house payment on his own, which means I would have a better chance of getting the house if we split. That is important to me because it is the kids' home, the only home they've ever known. So, I've started investigating builders and construction loans.

We had a pleasant visit while H was home. He was affectionate, although nothing overboard. No sexual advances by him, no encouragement by me. So that part seems to be going well and I'm glad because, at least for now, it's a boundary that I need.
H is talking about going back to school, which means I would be the primary source of income in the house. I don't know how I feel about that....supporting him while he goes back to school. I don't really think he has the right to ask that of me right now, but if we're still together-which we obviously are-shouldn't we proceed as though we intend to stay together? I'm not sure how I'll ever get rid of this ambivalence if we can't move forward. On the other hand, I'm not the one holding things back I suppose.

One other interesting note~I've noticed that H drinks O'Douls almost every night. Sat night he didn't have any and he actually drank a few beers on a night that is not a drinking night. That would be normal if we had been out in a social setting and H wanted a couple, but I can't recall a night in a long time where he just had a couple beers around the house on a non-drinking night. We got into an argument about that because it took me off guard. We had been watching a movie and I fell asleep on the couch. Woke up to see him finishing off a beer in the kitchen. I was pretty taken aback since he had just drank the night before. So, we got into an argument beginning with me incredulously asking "Are you drinking?!" The discussion moved into O'Douls because his excuse was that he didn't have any O'Douls so he thought he'd just have a couple regular beers. I asked him if, on the night before, he had more than six regular beers and he said yes. That's a first since I filed for D that I know of. So, I'm not very happy about that. He doesn't see anything wrong with drinking O'Douls as often or as much as he wants. It seems ridiculous to me and it is obviously still feeding his addiction. UGH.

Not being a religious person or even very deeply spiritual, forgiveness is sort of a foreign concept. I may have forgiven myself, I can't really tell. I'm not sure what that means.

Heather, I think that the main reason that I've been able to come to the point I'm at now is because of my faith in God. There have been times where I've questioned why God would put this upon me, but I've come to the conclusion that He let this happen and that if He did, I can handle it. There is a book by R.T. Kendall called "Total Forgiveness". I haven't read it yet, but it is on my list of books to read. I think that by totally forgiving WAW, I will drop the rope and move on without any problems.

No sexual advances by him, no encouragement by me. So that part seems to be going well and I'm glad because, at least for now, it's a boundary that I need.

This sounds like it is working for you. Congratulations on setting a goal and seeing it thru! Build on this success!

he actually drank a few beers on a night that is not a drinking night. he just had a couple beers around the house on a non-drinking night. It seems ridiculous to me and it is obviously still feeding his addiction.

I may have missed something here, but does H have designated drinking nights? Are they just when he is home? Is this part of some agreement b/w you two?

I do agree w/your assessment of his drinking being an addiction. Is it an escape? Has he ever gone to AA or counseling for this?