Hi Sheila...I know you are frustrated. And I don't have all the answers, but I think Al might be right and he's trying, but he's trying in a "makes sense to a guy way" and not a "reaches out and show Sheila way". So the intent is there, and that's a start.
Yes, good parenting and money management should be normal. But if it hasn't been normal for him in the past, it may take a long time for it to become a habit with him. I can speak from the dark side of money - I am horrible with it. I often had great plans and goals, but so often it was easier to let everything slide, and fall back into my bad habits. I would say you handled it well today, let him know you appreciate he's being responsible with it. I know it gets tiring to hear "have patience", but it seems you are seeing a lot of desire on his part, now he just has to translate that into the actions you need to see.
"makes sense to a guy way" and not a "reaches out and show Sheila way". So the intent is there, and that's a start OK, this makes perfect sense to me! I'm having a prob with the not a way that reaches out and show's Sheila part!
Yes, good parenting and money management should be normal. But if it hasn't been normal for him in the past, it may take a long time for it to become a habit with him. He IS a good Dad. I have to say that for him. He gets impatient, but with two very active boys, I think that's common. It's the sniping when he's in a nasty mood that bothers me more than the frustration of dealing with the boys when they're being stubborn. And he's not been snipping at anyone the last couple of days and making the atmosphere generally tense. I think that's the meds kicking in and helping him deal with his frustrations.
It's hard to deal with this because he can't see the difference in how he acts when he's stressed and not coping well, or when he's just parenting normally. He sometimes thinks I don't want him to discipline the kids and that's not it. It's just the way he goes about doing it. The difference between disciplining and guiding vs. being critical and harsh with them. S19 sees this too and it's something H is going to have to figure out for himself because if I say anything it's seen as criticism and me thinking he's a bad father. I don't think that at all. And this brings me back to him not seeing his psych regularly. If he could just commit to getting better, so many of the probs would go away as he works through his issues in C and learns to cope with anger, and stress better. If he'd take his meds regularly, he'd have help coping with his frustration and it wouldnt spill out onto everyone in the house the way it does. I'm learning (slowly) to not take that personally (and get out of his way), but the boys don't understand the difference between Daddy has taken his meds and Daddy hasn't. I've seen the results of this with D11. She's just now understanding that his moods aren't about her when he yells at her for no good reason. He's said some nasty things to her when he's in a mood and their R has suffered for it.
I know it gets tiring to hear "have patience", but it seems you are seeing a lot of desire on his part, now he just has to translate that into the actions you need to see. Patience. Yeah, I need more of that. I have to take the hit on that one for sure. I wish so much that H would deal with his depression and get to a point where we could do counseling together and see if this could work. I've been willing up until the last couple of months. If I could see a committment to wellness, I'd be in there with him in a heartbeat. I don't see that. I know we can't go anywhere without that. Waiting is taking its toll on me mentally and emotionally and I do believe what our Dr. has told H. He's gonna have to pull himself up by his bootstraps and take responsibility for getting better or he's going to drag the whole family into that black hole with him. He's encouraged me to be here for H because he needs his family right now and it wouldnt be a good thing for him to be on his own and coping with that. But he's also said he knows I'm walking a fine line myself here. It's so frustrating! On one hand I'd like to believe it's only a matter of time, but on the other.. after 8 months of this since he moved back in and no firmer committment from H, I think I'd just be in denial to think tommorow will be different. And even with treatment for his depression, I have no idea whether we'd ever work things out between us or not.
I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing and moving forward with my life. Hopefully H will get some help, or at least keep taking his meds regularly. He's functioning well enough to listen and take his Dr's advice and the rest is up to him. I do know rewarding anything other than a committment to getting healthy will only continue this destructive cycle. I've got to deal with my stuff and maybe that will be the best thing I can do for H and the kids. Just be as strong as I can be whatever happens. I've got nothing to lose.. he's here with us until March 1 anyway, so we'll see if he wakes up and gets back into counselling.
Thanks VJ! It does encourage me when others see that H is trying. I'm not wanting to downplay that at all. and I realize I'm at fault for not being as patient as I could be. I'm just so ready to move on from this. I've put my life on hold for over a year and I'm tired. I miss the H I had when things were good and the R that came with that. I miss having a man in my life! And it's frustrating to not see the things happening that would really make a difference for our family and keep it together.
OMG Shelia, in your last two posts I can see me and my XW before the bomb. It hit me in the first post some. I could feel what your H was feeling. It hit me more in your follow up post because I could close my eyes and hear my XW say those words. I'm going to try really hard to give you what I sense about it all because it sounds like I may have insight. I cannot, I am afraid, be really good about saying how and why your H can act to make things better because my wife left me and we divorced and I will never have the chance to test anything like that now. I can however, tell you how it was before that, and I think it is similar for how it is for you two now.
To answer your general question, yes it is a guy thing in a way. Let me see if I can paint a picture of your H's perspective over the last day or so.
There he sits with you watching TV. He feels fairly comfortable. He knows you two have things to work through, to work on. He knows he has things about himself that are part of the problem, and even in a general sense what those things are. But he is happy because you love him and want to stay and work on those things. He is happy because the two of you are having a normal moment,sitting there watching TV. And then you get up and announce you are going to your room to be alone and think.
The bottom drops out of him. It is brought forcibly home to him that things are not truly fixed, that he has not done what he needs to do yet and that you are not happy yet. He loves you and this thought makes him VERY anxious and concerned. Another thought makes it worse. He knows you are unhappy, and in a general, loving way, not connected to what it means to your marriage, he doesn't want you to be unhappy.
So what does he do? He seeks you out. He wants to know where you stand. He wants to make you feel better, if he can. He wants reassurance that you love him and although you two have not resolved everything and he is not perfect by any means, that you are not "done" but that you really do want to stay married to him.
Now as a sideline, you are right. If you had told him the problem, he would have defended. Why? Becasue he desparately needs to convince you that you can stay together that it will not fall apart. If he can argue away some issues and promise to fix the rest, that may do the trick. Part of him may know he won't get the fixes done, but most of him firmly believes right then and there that he will, from now on, do the right thing and keep the marriage alive.
But you don't say what is wrong, although he can probably guess. If he were me, he would push you and push you for as long and as hard as it took until you broke down and told him, and then he would follow the same defensiveness pattern. He didn't, either because that is not him or because he HAS learned and he HAS grown in this process. I hope it is the second one.
But your not saying, worries him even more. Like him, I would have done SOMETHING to try to (a)make you happier and (b)make you happier with me. My something would follow my love language. His MAY have followed his own love language, but it SEEMS to me that what he did was reach beyond that just a little and TRY TO DO THE THINGS YOU SAID YOU WANTED. Is it great that it took this to get him to do it? Hell no. It sucks. But it IS great that he did it. To me, in guy talk, it screamed "I love you Shelia and I want to make this work". I know it is not what needs to be done, but it is what he is capable of right then and there.
Sure, it's sh^t he should do any way. That is not the point. It's all sh^t we should do anyway. Whatever IT is, it is never something outlandish or over the top. It is usually something that we, the other spouse, would do as a matter of course. That's WHY it's something we want. We don't have what we feel are unreasonable demmands. We don't have what an indepent observer would see as unreasonable demmands. We have a need for something that is not there, whatever it is.
Why can't he keep doing these things? Why can't he follow through on his promises? Why can't he just do those little things you ask for? Hell, I don't know. If I did, I wouldn't be divorced. But I can tell you what it ISN'T. It isn't because he doesn't love you. It isn't because he is not willing to work on the marriage. It isn't because he doesn't care.
I wish I had the magic bullet for you Shelia. Some days I see you two as so close. Some days I sense you pulling back from that, tired and worried and anxious for your future. I don't blame you a bit. You have needs too. I guess if I could give your H a tip that I learned from all this, it would be to turn everything upside down. To 180 his perspective, his understanding, his outlook or whatever. To turn it over and over like that fricken' Rubric's Cube until he finds the side of it that tells him the solution. Like the cube, he may have to keep twisting and looking and keep finding those sides, little by little, but the pattern will start to emerge. I may also tell him he is damn lucky you are sticking it out and giving him the chance. Many of us were not that lucky.
Wow.. thanks for this post! I'd say you have my H down to a T. And I can see why you'd say we remind you of you and your XW. You hit the nail on most of our interactions. And you hit the nail on why this makes me so sad too. We love each other and care about each other. I've doubted how much H cares through this, but I know he does. You can't have the history we do and stick with it this long unless both of us care. And yeah, we can still be close. No doubt if this doesnt work, we'll still always be close as friends and parents.
I think maybe where it differs from your sitch (correct me if I'm wrong) is that H has had it all laid out on the table for him. I didnt expect him to magically start doing the things I need, or do it over night. There was a plan involved from the day he moved back in. Me, H, our Dr., our MC, his psych all agreed on the way to put this back together. Intially it was - look for a job away from OW, make sure everyone knew the R was over (meaning he had to end it in person, with a letter, etc showing his re-committment to our M. Reasoning behind this was spiritual, and because he came home and lied about still being in contact with her for awhile, and moved out when I asked him to end it the second time), stick with counseling for 12 weeks, be open and honest and stop writing bad checks.
This all didnt have to be done over night. He went to see his psych and was doing great with the meds. We started MC. He wasnt opening up, so me and the C carried our sessions and basically all H had to do was study the material and show on paper that he'd worked through it in some way between sessions. The MC asked for 12 weeks of steady effort from both of us and said we'd be able to see progress by then if we worked at the exercises we were given. He also had a bible study that he was supposed to do on his own.
The MC had a communication tool we were supposed to use at least once a week to deal with our issues. And we had specific study we were supposed to discuss what it means in terms of our M, but not necessarily hash out the probs. 8 weeks in, it became apparent that H wasn't willing to do any of it consistently. He didnt make time for the discussions, his study, or even do the writing exercises. I did all mine. So the counselor focused on what I had to communicate and we worked on my for a bit. Then I started to resent that my dirty laundry was getting all the attention and asked H for more input. Let me tell you, I was getting hammered weekly because I was still angry about his A (it turned into a how's Sheila going to get over being angry and just let it go party) and H was sitting in the sessions not confronting anything he did to contribute to our problems. Finally on the last session, the MC said he didnt really see a reason for us to continue if the material wasnt being worked or applied to our R. I agreed, so we stopped. A week later I approached the MC and asked if he'd be willing to work with H alone. He said he thought that was a good idea, and H said he thought so too. That way he'd get comfortable at his own pace and I'd be reassured I wasnt the only one making an effort. The MC point blank told H that he'd bet I'd do my part if he'd even try a little. H was supposed to get with the C and set up a time for individual counseling. He didnt even call or email the MC for a month I think. He finally did and then didnt answer the MC email at all until a couple of weeks ago. During the weeks of no contact, the MC told me to let it go and not say or do anything, that H was going to have to decide to try or it will never work.
The job search. He didnt put out the first resume for three months I think it was. Then he did a little.. now he's looking consistently. If I told you all I personally went through to encourage him to carry out what the MC said he needed to do, you'd call me a fool. At one point I needed the closure, now I don't and am just left knowing he couldnt/wouldnt do that for us. You know the pain I went through knowing they saw each other every day and not being quite sure it was over. But still, I was willing to work this out if he'd start doing "something" we agreed on and follow it through.
So now we're left with H needs to be getting treated for his depression (meds and Ic), be open and honest and stop writing checks. He wrote some on my account for awhile and told many lies. He's pretty much stopped that as far as I can tell. Not much open and honest communciation though. He stops taking his meds sometimes and we have to deal with that roller coaster. I have no idea when he's going to see his psych again. To top it off.. he's having ED probs and is supposed to be seeing our family Dr about that and hasnt seen him in over a month I think and I don't know if he's planning on going back or not.
So other than just say f*ck it.. we'll be OK and continue, I don't know what to do. I feel like he's had every opportunity to go to bat for us. Our friends, our church, our pastor, have all been sooo supportive of us. Our family Dr. has even gone the extra mile to encourage this process.
So I guess what I'm saying is.. what can I do with someone who won't get in there and work with me except to apply some effort when the mood strikes or things get uncomfortable? Hell, I tried to wing it for awhile and do it his way but we still couldnt piece it together because of the destructive patterns in our R.
Al, you're here Dbing your butt off, getting advice, etc. trying to change. If H had done the above, even worked on the 5LL book with me consistently, worked on DR, did our couple's bible study.. just any part of it and did it willingly and committed to it.. I'd have given him the benefit of the doubt. Sure he's acting nicer and he cares, but where does actually applying himself to the process fit in? He can't. I'm not going to say he won't. I'm just saying he cant. And without his part of the effort, we can't get there from here. We tried to get there by just doing it our way and then we faced all the communication and intimacy problems. If I came home tomorrow and he wanted to *do* anything to work on this, I'd have hope. I just don't see that. I see a guy who tries a little and hopes it's enough to get him back to a place where I'm willing to do all the trying and work for us again.
I'll say this might just be too much for someone with depression to deal with. If you knew how compassionate and patient our MC is and how encouraging he was for me to be compassionate and patient, well, MC was probably the best place for H to be as far as having a cheerleader.
The only ray of sunlight in the last weeks has been H saying that he's concentrating on stopping the behavior that hurts me, ie, writing checks and lying to me. That is a good positive step. It's not gone unnoticed by me. But still, we can't make the next step without some counseling.
Anyway... I'm still listening and thinking about your post Al. I'm going to keep it in mind when dealing with H. I can be more encouraging and I'll try. I still can't jump back in there though with something a little more from him.
Shelia, I waited with baited breath to hear your response, LOL. I am beginning to think I want to work out my marriage, dead and gone though it is, through you. I at least hope I can elaborate some more....
First, for me... no I wasn't. By the time I had the DB book, she was gone. The best I did was hold off on the pleading and begging, not very helpful it turned out. Much too late. But the idea that things were laid out for your H was exactly one of the things I thought about and deliberatly left out hoping you would bring it up.
Let me explain. I loved my wife and she DID come to me and lay out to me what she thought the problem was and what I wasn't doing. Thing is, it was not black and white for me nor did I understand what to do (and maybe I still don't). I promised my ass off too though. I did certain things right away and then let them slide too. Things were not spelled out as much as yours. We had not the benefit of professional C's or clergy or anyone but the two of us, but there it is. I didn't KNOW what to do, and when I had a concrete suggestions I ran it into the ground till it was no longer fruitful thing, more of a going through the motions "act".
Your H does sound a bit like me (Lord help us both). Maybe I can see myself there and try to help. I would say his check writing/lying thing almost sounds like a mental illness - in the sense of a problem like alcoholism or gambling addiction. It is something that needs the same kind of approach anyway. Saying "just quit doing it" is not the right one (not that I am accusing of anyhting, you know that. If I had a wife that cared and tried as hard as you, I would cut off my arm if it would help. No BLAME for Shelia) I am not a professional, and I don't KNOW how that sort of thing is supposed to be handled, but it seems as though if something from an addiction treatment program was borrowed, it would help.
About the rest, the appointments to make, the "homework" to do, the job to find - I wonder, is H bad about things like that in general? If he has a call to make, some work to finish by a certain time, some errand to run, does he put them off and neglect them? Does he often let the deadline go by, doing nothing? Is this the way he is in gemeral or only with these very specific things?
I am guessing it is the way he is in general although it may not be obvious sometimes. I guess this because I am exactly like that. I may even be worse. I don't KNOW why. I don't even know what makes me quit being like that some times, but I do know it almost seems to not matter at all how important the thing is. I kid myself and make myself feel fine about it by telling myself I am a rebel that hates rules and "have to's" and that is partially true. I make myself feel better by telling myself how responsible I am in some things and how hard I work and that's partially true too. Hoever, it doesn't excuse me. Just wanted you to see that some people are like that. I wish I knew more about why. I may have to investigate it sometime.
If he is NOT like that and these things seem to be the only things that he is not following through on, then I almost suspect that he is unconsciously trying to sabotage the process. Why? My best guess would be resentment. He may not even realize that he has it. He may realize it a little but pushes it down.
Forgive me if I am remembering wrong, but didn't you split up at one point (even divorced?) and then reunited. Is that right? Seems like it was you that initiated that the first time? If I am remembering this right, I would say that maybe even though he "owned" the reasons for the break down and even though he did terrible things (like the A), he never worked through the resentment towards you. It may be down there somewhere, bubbling up and messing things up. Just speculating.
I will say this. I see from my little half obscured view, a man who loves you and a marriage you CAN heal. I am rooting for you even if I don't come by very often.
Hi Sheila and Big Al If you wouldn't mind I would like to join this conversation. By the way my name is also Sheila! Out of nowhere my H had an affair (something I never thought he would choose to do) last September. I think it has ended (although since they work together I cannot be completely sure). He has been going out to bars and spending hundreds of dollars (that we don't have). Although he is only 37 I see signs of a midlife crisis in him. In November as I was pursuing him in a relationship talk he told me "he loves and cares about me but is not in love with me and is not attracted to me anymore". Of course being the type A fixer that I am I immediately got on the computer, ordered all kinds of relationship books (basically wasted alot of money) Then I found this website. I have DB and DR and I have been debating on paying the $130 for a phone consultation. Anyway to get to my question; my husband did not move out (kids and finances probably prevented that), we still share the same bedroom (as roommates), he started wearing his wedding ring again a couple of weeks ago and as long as I don't bring up our relationship we get along fantastic. But...I cannot live without intimacy or affection. The only thing I get from him is a hug on his way to work. I know I am rambling, but any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Shelia, I waited with baited breath to hear your response, LOL. Is that why I had a sleepless night last night? I was anxious to see what Al (my H) had to say this morning? hehe
I am beginning to think I want to work out my marriage, dead and gone though it is, through you. Give it a shot. It can’t hurt either of us at this point, and if nothing else, we might gain some insight.
The best I did was hold off on the pleading and begging. H gets good at this. Just letting it go and believing things will work with *time*, and anything else would be inviting a confrontation that would only do more harm, right?
Let me explain. I loved my wife and she DID come to me and lay out to me what she thought the problem was and what I wasn't doing. Thing is, it was not black and white for me nor did I understand what to do (and maybe I still don't). I promised my ass off too though. I did certain things right away and then let them slide too. Things were not spelled out as much as yours. …. and when I had a concrete suggestions I ran it into the ground till it was no longer fruitful thing, more of a going through the motions "act".
I think the problem comes when the actions are without understanding why it’s being done. They become a demand that can be explained away as unreasonable because the “doer” doesn’t necessarily understand the value of doing it to begin with (hey, I’m happy and can just “deal”. What’s her problem?! OK, I’ll try if it’s what SHE wants!). This is where H being a part of the process and doing the work is so important. He has to discover, agree and commit to his part of the “fixing” or it just becomes a service FOR ME to be happy, not something that we need to have a good R. If it was balanced with his input into what I need to do to improve our R too, it might leave him feeling less like he’s the one that has the burden on his shoulders. It’s a lot of pressure to be the only one who’s asked to change, and it might make changing easier for both of us if we were in MC and making changes together that complement and support our individual efforts.
Maybe I can see myself there and try to help. I would say his check writing/lying thing almost sounds like a mental illness - in the sense of a problem like alcoholism or gambling addiction. It is something that needs the same kind of approach anyway.
I agree. With or without me, he’ll have to deal with this or it could destroy his life. This is a good reason for him to pursue seeing his psych. The theory being that his depression is at least partially caused by behavior that keeps him in a cycle of making mistakes, lying, etc and he has self esteem and insecurity issues because he can’t get this under control.
Saying "just quit doing it" is not the right one.
Yup, again I agree. When we reconciled after the D (and this was the major reason for our divorce, the lying and check writing, and failure to get that under control), I accepted that this was a flaw in H, and decided all things considered, I could live with this. He started doing this because he had his own checking account and couldn’t resist over spending on it. So, he cancelled that account and I took control of the finances accepting that this would be something he might never get “good” at. Then we were in the sitch where I had all the financial control (he resented that) and responsibility (I resented that). But still it worked better than it had ever worked. H chose not to share his feelings with me, or try to become more financially responsible. I became the controlling “mom”. And, being who I am, it’s not wise that someone allow me to control their purse strings exclusively. Mine and H’s views on spending are different. To get what he wanted, he resorted to manipulation instead of confrontation and because I felt guilty for having control, I allowed myself to be manipulated and really - he was controlling the $$ sitch passively. I had the bank account, but wouldnt say “no” to him. Instead of doing that, I started being very stingy with myself in terms of spending. I’d go without spending on my needs in order to indulge his wants. I knew it wasn’t a perfect solution. It was the only one that I could do anything with because getting help with his money probs was not something he wanted to do and I didn’t know what a balanced solution that would work looked like.
(not that I am accusing of anyhting, you know that. If I had a wife that cared and tried as hard as you, I would cut off my arm if it would help. No BLAME for Shelia
Oh sweet Al, I don’t take what you say as accusing any more than me replying is defending my belief that this is nearly unsalvageable. There is PLENTY of blame for me. I’ve said it and I meant it; I can be a hateful b*tch. I’ve done much that’s wrong in our M. I’ve cheated the same as H has. I think my cheating was worse because I was emotionally involved and he knew that. I’ve been controlling, demanding, spiteful, unforgiving, you name the mistake, I’ve made it. We D because of H’s lying and check writing. I moved on and dated. It became clear to me though, that I loved him and wanted to work things out. He’d always made that clear to me that he still loved me. Living apart, we got along pretty well. When I started dating and got serious with someone, it broke his heart. Even then he didn’t hate me (sometimes I’m not sure whether his feelings are love or need). When I realized I still had feelings for H and saw that he had made changes to be more responsible, I asked him to move back home after we dated awhile. He did. We agreed that the past was the past. Neither of us were going to be unfaithful, lie, or do things we knew would harm our R again. H had some financial things to deal with before I’d agree to remarry. He still hasn’t accomplished that, but it wasn’t an issue that was a deal breaker for me. After we reconciled I was happy to have my family back together. H was loving and attentive like he’d never been before. We got along great. I didn’t know though that he viewed my R after we divorced as an A/OM sitch. He didn’t mention it. Never expressed much of anything about it. I didn’t feel sorry for that R. Over time H started to act unhappy and stressed again. Instead of sharing his feelings so I’d know how to help, or what to change, he bottled them up and they came out passively. Things like making remarks about the house being out of order, the kids being noisy, being bored, etc. So, having nothing to go on, I started to change to make him happy. I became superwoman. Kept the house spotless. Worked hard. Spent all my time showering him and the kids with time and affection. I planned vacations for the family, couple vacations, etc. Any time he was unhappy I tried to fix it by responding to any “comment” that gave me a clue. He lost interest in ML as often and we went back to once or twice a month. I expressed my dissatisfaction. He didn’t tell me he was angry and resentful about my OM. Doing that was a risk for him. What if I got mad and left again? I think he believed OM was better in bed so he became self conscious with performing. I didn’t know that. I thought he found ME unattractive and undesirable. Several times along the way I tried to tell H that we were heading for disaster. Our happiness was because things were going smoothly, not because we’d worked out our probs and had a better R. We just buried that past and went on. Sure enough, he lost his job, S19 went off to college and all the frustration of keeping his feelings to himself erupted. He started spending, lying, etc. Then he admitted that he hadn’t had feelings for me in a couple of years. All that stuffing his feelings from the divorce destroyed his feelings of love for me. Well, actually, all the stuffing led to depression which led to him not feeling anything about much, just wanting to escape.
I never had the opportunity to confront that I had hurt H or make amends for it. I didn’t know I needed to do that until we first started MC and he admitted his feelings for the first time. I didn’t get to tell him that OM wasn’t better than him, or reassure him when he was hurting because I worked with this guy. I didn’t have the opportunity to really be the W he needed, but I sure did want to. I changed myself entirely to make him happy but was doing the wrong things because I didn’t know what the right things were. So now, I can’t do that again. In order to move forward, we have to deal with the issues and problems together and quit shooting in the dark. I understand this is a risk for him, but I’ve shown him that I’m willing to change. Heck, I did it without him asking me to because I want him to be happy and I want to be the W he needs me to be. And yeah, even if that means I’m wrong, and have to admit I’m a hateful controlling b*tch at times and even if I have to say I’m sorry for moving on after the D even though at the time, I thought I had a right to. I mean, he didn’t corner the market on dysfunctional here. I’ve went out on a limb for us to change and to help him change too. I need the same thing. I also need his guidance and support with my probs. How can I be a wife he wants to be intimate and physically close to? How can I be his encourager vs. his critic? What can I do? I can’t get past my pain because he won’t deal with it and change to make sure these things don’t happen again, and we can’t deal with his pain because he won’t share his feelings and help me understand how I should change.
About the rest, the appointments to make, the "homework" to do, the job to find - I wonder, is H bad about things like that in general?
He used to be good about this, I think. The prob is, H hasn’t had to “do” much in a long time. I became superwoman who didn’t ask him to do anything, I did it myself.
If he has a call to make, some work to finish by a certain time, some errand to run, does he put them off and neglect them?
Depends on what it is. He’s a very dedicated employee. Household stuff.. maint, etc. if he can put it off, he will. Big arguments about this between us. If it’s golf or reffing bball, he is on top of it. If it’s a dinner date with me, he’ll forget.
Does he often let the deadline go by, doing nothing? Oh yeah. Ask him about paying his income taxes for last year.
Is this the way he is in gemeral or only with these very specific things?
Ask him to go rent a steam cleaner, spend a day cleaning the entire house, or ask him to paint a room, he’ll have it done tomorrow. Ask him to get the recall done the car, or even the oil changed, never will happen. There doesn’t seem to be a sense of priority to this except if it brings immediate gratification, he’ll make sure it gets done if he doesn’t have to put himself out *too* much. If it involves money, forget it. They’ll have to show up at the door before he’ll pay the bill.
I don't KNOW why. He says this. I don't even know what makes me quit being like that some times says this too.
but I do know it almost seems to not matter at all how important the thing is. And this is also correct for H.
I kid myself and make myself feel fine about it by telling myself I am a rebel that hates rules and "have to's" and that is partially true. This one doesn’t sound like H, but maybe he feels this way too sometimes and I’m just unaware.
I make myself feel better by telling myself how responsible I am in some things and how hard I work
Yes, H says this. And you know what. This makes it hard because it’s the same deal as with showing him the diff between him disciplining the kids and just being too harsh with them. He wants to have it black and white – I’m ALWAYS responsible because I CAN be and HAVE been and my INTENTIONS are the best. He’s said to me that he doesn’t always tell me things because he knows that if he tells me, I’ll share the *truth* with him so he lies or is secretive so he won’t have to deal with his probs. For instance (this is just one example).. he says he and OW were only friends. I know it’s a lie… he knows it’s a lie, everyone who saw how he acted knows it’s a lie, but until he admits that they were more than friends, he doesn’t have to deal with the fallout of their R being more than a friendship. Because he SAYS it was a friendship, I should have to get over it pretty quickly and he can avoid confrontation. He also can tell me that my anger isn’t justified, that he doesn’t have to find another place to work, but he’s willing to because he cares just that much about my feelings! He can avoid a whole host of probs with that lie. Like, why did he walk out on his kids and not support them? That’s scary. I understand that. I really really do. But it’s not like anyone is trying to use that info to destroy him. We want the truth to use it for a good purpose. To understand and deal with the “whys” of the sitch so it never has to happen again for any of us. I loved this man. I understand how affairs happen. I’ve been there. The not telling, not sharing is so much harder to deal with than the truth. But I think if he admits to me that he had “feelings” for her, he thinks I’ll never get over it and that’s just too much to face. At least right now, he’s in the house whether it’s on the grounds of truth or not. What I don’t know can’t hurt us! But what about preventing it in the future? What about dealing with the things that caused him to feel “out of love” with me. He cant even admit to them and blames it entirely on his depression and says I was the *perfect * wife. Except he told our friend that I was controlling, so yeah, he’ll admit he’s felt that way.
If he is NOT like that and these things seem to be the only things that he is not following through on, then I almost suspect that he is unconsciously trying to sabotage the process. Why? My best guess would be resentment. He may not even realize that he has it. He may realize it a little but pushes it down.
Bingo! This has got to stop for us to get anywhere. He’s bottled it up for years and years. Not just with me either. It’s gonna eat him for lunch even if I’m not part of his life.
If I am remembering this right, I would say that maybe even though he "owned" the reasons for the break down and even though he did terrible things (like the A), he never worked through the resentment towards you. It may be down there somewhere, bubbling up and messing things up. Just speculating.
Nope, it’s more than speculation. As I said above, this is definitely a big part of it. But if he doesn’t choose to work on the resentment and/or allow me to help, I can’t control that. I’ve changed in every way I *know* to change without his input and haven’t been able to get past these feelings. To do it now, I need a little guidance. And being the b*tch that I am, I find it ironic that after 5 years he has anger and resentment for a R I had after our D and I’m just supposed to have let everything go by now and we’re not even a year into the process. Talk about resentment.. I resent that there are different rules for me in our R than there are for him. He also does the pushing when he wants to know what’s wrong with me. But, he isn’t willing to share what’s wrong with him. What right does he have to ask for something he’s not willing to give? At least when I ask something of him, he’s free to ask it of me in return and expect that I’ll give it to him and if I don’t he’s free to call me on that too!
And would you believe, somewhere in all these "whys" H has also said that some of the stuff he does, or doesnt do, he believes he does to get my attention? So that I will confront him and then he'll know I still care. He's also said I make him a better person. The MC has told him and I that I'm not his conscience and he shouldn't use me to do that job. H is motivated by my anger. It's kinda sick really, like he needs someone or something to prod him because he's not strong enough to do it for himself. Maybe he thinks he's not worth the effort, but his family is. Not sure, I just know it's screwed up and being a part of that makes me screwed up too! CO-DEPENDENT AS H*LL and I know what healthy is. I'm ready to choose healthy!
I will say this. I see from my little half obscured view, a man who loves you and a marriage you CAN heal. I am rooting for you even if I don't come by very often. I hope you see that I agree with you more than you might have expected. I love ya for sharing this with me and for rooting for us. I know that man loves me, but to heal, it’s gonna take more than a healthy dose of love. It's going to take a committment to having a healthy R. Seeing the good points makes me doubt. I've doubted myself into staying for years. But 18 years leave little doubt in my mind where we'll end up without professional help. I can't do that without H being willing to do that too.
I'm not ignoring you! Have you started your own thread on the BB yet? If not, it might be a good idea to do that and get some advice from experienced Dbers. I'll be back later and reply, but I'm not sure if I can offer much *good* advice.
hang in there. Sounds like your sitch has a lot of positives!
You are very perceptive, you know. Yes, H has not learned to express his negative feelings - anger, resentment, fear, doubt - the whole host of bads. He holds off on them because he is afraid, frankly. He is afraid of losing you most of all.
You made the right call, he needs the reassurance from you and looks for it. He doesn't see it, for some reason, the way you give it so he prods you until it comes.
Somewhere inside of him is sure that he doesn't deserve this. That Sheila is much to a wonderful a person to want him, that she has seen that once before and it's only a matter of time until she sees it again. That self fulfilling prophecy is so painful to watch for me. I was there. It ends with the exactly what you don't want.
I wish had the perfect answer to how to deal with this and how to get H to deal with it. You are so right that you have to plow through it together. You are so right that he needs to work through all of this in himself not just bury it and hope things will be fine. I wonder now, since you went your separate ways and then returned, how much more motivation he needs to do that?
But I wonder too, how clear he is on the fact that this is what he needs to do? I KNOW you have told him, MC has told him, pastor maybe has told him. I know you have probably tried to show him from every angle, but being a teacher I know that saying something perfectly clearly and lucidly over and over to someone else in no way means they KNOW what you are telling them.
I hate to resort to parlor tricks that I know nothing about any way, but I wonder that if he could see a little success and a little step in the things he needs to do that somehow it would lead him to a bigger one?
Maybe you could try something like "on Tuesdays you are going to tell me something that you absolutely hate about me or our marriage WITHOUT ramifications or at least the most horrible ones."
"You can tell me once a week (or month or whatever) anything like that. Anything that just scares the sh^t of you to say to me. I promise not to walk. I don't promise not be hurt, but I do promise to think about it and try to understand it."
"Tell me you sometimes think of OW and fantasize, tell me you are haunted by OM every time we make love, tell me you LIED about something to do with $$ last week, tell me you daydream about being single sometimes, tell me you hate the way I have my hair now, whatever"
You know, Sheila, I don't know jack about these things and so please bounce them off someone who does before trying them.
I have another thought too. Your H may think poorly of himself in some way too. He may be sabotaging his chances, without knowing it, because somehow he thinks he's not worthy. Somehow he sucked you back into a marriage that you left because it was so bad, and NOW you are not happy. He is to blame, so he thinks. Sheila's life has been ruined twice because I am not good enough to get her what she needs. I can't let her go voluntarily, but I could push her away.
Understand, I don't think he THINKS these things in his conscious mind. He probably doesn't, or maybe not as much as I write.
Let's keep talking. I really want to see how this goes because I really want to learn about myself just as much as I want to see you two people to be happy.
e-mail if you need to allensaccnt at gmail dot come
no no no, don't email! I am being selfish. Keep talking right here if you don't mind. So much of this is familiar, I am gathering information for myself.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
