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Hey Sheila! I had a decent reply to you started last night but W went off and I didn't get it done.

The short version is I think you're right that you're in kind of a DB'ing nirvana right now. See still_hopeful's latest post in Surviving to kind of back that up.


I'm hoping the space will take the pressure off of H and he'll find a way to stop lying because there wont be a need. Does that make sense?

Perfect sense.

Good luck!

Thanks Bud. It's strange to read S_H's thread and think it might be me posting about splitting things up in a few months. Reading about her H not paying his bills, him selling his truck and her being sad really hit home. She said she knows she has to walk away or else face a lifetime of irresponsibility. Ouch.. so true Just what she says about her H could be said about mine. The main diff between my H and many on here is that his OW ended the A and sent him scurrying back home. Sigh...

Oh and your replies are always more than decent.. they're usually just what I need at the moment, so THANKS!

Sheila

Burgbud,

Thought I'd post over here to you instead of on your thread. I actually realize I didnt have to put that title on there because you're one of the few who replies here anyway!

Just had some thoughts about the sitch with your W. If she's read some of the posts (you didnt say if you know how recently), then she's might be getting a better picture of your feelings for her right now? The detachment, the posts about how you're almost afraid she'll change her mind, just basically saying that you're not going to and might not be willing to work this out no matter what happens now.

What are the stages of grieving? I don't know them off-hand, but anger is one of them. Do you think she could be reacting to realizing that dont choose HER anymore? I still hold true that no matter how much someone says they are through, the realization that the other person is no longer in love with them, and that they don't have the POWER to choose the R if they want it is quite a blow. Yes, as usual I'm projecting. But I remember so vividly the day that I found out H had had sex with OW. It was o the tail end of two weeks of me insisting he couldnt come home, I was through, etc... and I honestly believed deep in my heart that I was a stone because of all that had happened between us previously. No way was he gonna get in there again! Yet, knowing that he wanted someone else, and that meant that I couldnt choose him if I needed to (yes, I know how very selfish this is!) broke me. That stony exterior was built knowing that I could have him back if I wanted him, so I was set to be stubborn until he made some changes after realizing how miserable he was without me. Your W... could it be the same at all for her? J slipping away and you slipping away. No job on the horizon.. maybe playing with the thought that she could take her time and maybe decide to save the M if she couldnt work something else out. Could it be that reading the posts was a big blow to her ego? I mean, she went from having a H who was divorce busting.. changing for HER to save the M, to having a H who changed so much that he's not only great H material, he's a man who realizes the kind of M he deserves. I can see from the progression of your growth that at first she couldve have said the word and you'd have worked it out, now she would have to work very very hard to convince YOU that it could be done, and she'd have to make amends for some stuff that she doesnt even want to admit she's responsible for.

Is it anger time there? I know you said the do no harm motto isnt a priority for you. But how about it? Can you see if this is anger rearing it's head.. weather it the way you've weathered the rest, and see if it settles down, be a teflon rock and take the "I want stay in the house" as just more words/threats until she goes into more detail? I'm not saying that you wouldnt be smart to be prepared (lawyer), only that maybe the comment about her staying in the house doesnt need to be mentioned by you to her. Maybe act as if the plan remains the same and see what happens as you quietly explore your options?

Like I said, just some thoughts. Especially since she vented the other night, maybe it's emotions talking and she wants to hurt you more than anything else right now if she read the BB and feels rejected.

And gosh, I feel silly giving you advice because I know you've probably come to all these conclusions yourself. Mostly just know that you are thought about! You've helped so many here.. it's hard to see you being jerked around like this.

And, if you ever have to go dark on the BB because of W reading your posts, my email addy is sheilab1@charter.net if you ever need to vent privately you can add me to the groupmail of people who miss you on the BB!

Hang in there... even when you're at your best, it's not all that hard for someone who's determined to find fault if that's what they wanna do.

Sheila

Hey Sheila! Thanks much for this. You've really hit on some things.

If she's read some of the posts (you didnt say if you know how recently),

She said she read some quite awhile ago and again about six weeks ago. But who knows?


Your W... could it be the same at all for her? J slipping away and you slipping away. No job on the horizon..

I don't know for sure about J but it seems that might be the case from my limited ability to observe. I guess I'm basically thinking this because since we agreed she could bring her phone upstairs, I haven't heard it ring (except once and that was a call from her SIL). She also called him in the wee hours this morning to vent after our dust up, and I can hear if she's not quiet, which she wasn't. I'm pretty sure either he hung up on her or he said something to her and she hung up on him. But they've recovered from worse.

And whether she's read the board recently or not, she knows how gone I am. She was happy at first, but if she's feeling down anyway, maybe my moving on and possibly being happy without her makes her feel more alone? And resentful?


Is it anger time there?

This evening is good so far, but yes, she's definitely angry. Way angry. The stuff she was flinging at me would curl your hair (even more!). And she was just completely making up some stuff. It was unreal. I need J to come back and work some of his magic. C'mon, J, do it for the children!


...be a teflon rock and take the "I want stay in the house" as just more words/threats until she goes into more detail? I'm not saying that you wouldnt be smart to be prepared (lawyer), only that maybe the comment about her staying in the house doesnt need to be mentioned by you to her. Maybe act as if the plan remains the same and see what happens as you quietly explore your options?

I think that's exactly the right way to play it. I was thinking along those lines but hadn't crystallized the thought, so thanks for that! I almost sent her a short email today but I'm glad I didn't, especially since we're being civil at the moment. As long as L doesn't tell me something different, and I don't know why that would happen.

I've filed your email, you know not what you do!


...know that you are thought about!

Thanks, that really helps on days like this. I'm thinking about you too! If you string together a couple of posts without a good response I start to feel bad (but I fight it, so don't worry ). But you can rest assured I'm reading everything!

Have a great night...I hope you and H can each continue down your healthy paths and then, well, who knows?

H not being in the bedroom is giving me way too much freedom to use the computer and neglect my sleep. But dang, I'm so relaxed when I'm not in constant contact with him.

I'm pretty sure either he hung up on her or he said something to her and she hung up on him. Well crud, I hope you don't receive the blunt of their disagreements because he isn't there to hear it!

This evening is good so far, but yes, she's definitely angry. Way angry. The stuff she was flinging at me would curl your hair (even more!). OK, what are your boundaries here? Have you decided that you'll listen to all of this and use it to benefit your sitch, or have you given yourself permission to not remove yourself and allow her to deal with it until she can be calm and reasonable? I'm heavily exploring my boundaries here.. it's amazing what they keep off my radar.

so thanks for that! I've filed your email, you know not what you do! You're welcome, and thanks for filing the email, I consider it an honor to be on that list. Ya know Bud, thinking about your W saying we're a bunch of whiners... well we're not, but we are genuine! And I wouldnt care if anyone here emailed me really, at least we know that much..no BS. This board has given me a much different view of people in general and more compassion. We just never know what's going on inside a person and I try to keep that in mind. I think I've read most of the threads here at least one time and don't post a lot, but read many regularly. All the different personalities are beautiful.. really.. and I know if the knowing started in person it would look SO different. A ramble.. aaack. See, I don't ramble in person, and my friends would be so surprised if they could see how random my mind really works

If you string together a couple of posts without a good response I start to feel bad (but I fight it, so don't worry ). OMG.. I'm not sure if I've ever been on a pity list! Whoo hoo! j/k I know that's not what you meant! Thanks for your posts The journalling unleashes so much for me. I'm a sharer in life, but I don't get to vent much anywhere else. I voice my opinion, thoughts when appropriate, but when it comes to probs, I tend to be on the listening end and I think people assume that I "have things under control". I generally don't but the fact that I don't let myself come too unravelled gives that appearance I think. It's like when I fell two years ago and cracked a vertebrae, I went on like I was a little sore and when I found out that I had actually damaged my spine, I was like "D*mn! I coulda gotten six weeks of bed rest out of that, but noooo I gotta be the tough girl" And sometimes when I see someone going through a rough spot and that their allowing themselves to be weak, I envy that ability. So, I come here to be weak, unravelled, unsure..whatever I am at the moment. It's very forgiving not having to answer to some of the cr*p that goes through my mind that I used to keep bottled up. Just the venting helps me so much to sort things out... especially when I'm being an a*s, and ya know what, that's OK.. I accept that my thoughts are selfish, blaming, screwed up sometimes, as long as I don't always act on them!

I'm thankful when someone wanders in and says hello and offers advice.. this has went on so long and it's hard to share with my friends and family much. I've made my bed so to speak and I can end this at any time, why burden them with worrying when I choose to remain?

I hope you and H can each continue down your healthy paths and then, well, who knows? Well put! And it's well after 10PM.. lol We actually had a R talk tonight.

He came home from the rec center and asked if I'm OK (what a surprise) Code words for H wants to talk until it's fixed again. I was laying on the couch, chilling watching criminal minds. H came over and sat on the coffee table. Little chit, chat then he said I could talk to him anytime.. he wants me to be able to do that, and he's glad we've been talking. I've kept my thoughts and feelings very quiet the last month, and was surprised that he things we've been communicating. I need to ponder that. I said, well, we really haven't discussed much. And he started...

H: You know I've been very frustrated with the job sitch and if I could just find another I think that would go along way towards us working things out. Then he started explaining for what he thinks he needs to do, but hasnt yet.

M: (thinking... ummmm.. this would have been a major catalyst months ago, but now, it's so much more about our R and less about OW) OK J.. I didnt mean to dig all that stuff up. We really don't have to go there. The time for that has past. What I'm saying is that I'm really OK with where we are right now. I realize I can't control this sitch and that's OK. What you choose to do, or not do is up to you and I'll be fine with whatever that is. No need to explain. I've finally realized that I didnt create this mess and I can't fix it. I can only fix the parts of me that contributed to our problems, but as far as OW and the last year, you say I didnt do anything to bring this on, that you were happy with me until you lost your job, matt went off to school and your world fell apart. So I have to assume other than not asking you to move out and realizing you were depressed there isn't much for me to do but accept the way you choose to handle your health, job, financial stuff and let you figure it out. Right now, we don't have a R that works for me. I can't tell you what you need to do, but I'll always be here to listen and help if you need it. I just can't jump in there and be involved in something that doesn't belong to me. It just frustrates both of us.
H: You're really OK with this ending aren't you?
M: Yeah, I really am. I've done the most I can do right now and that's OK. Unless we get to a place where we can both commit to counseling and being honest, what can I do, but be supportive of your choices and see if they get you there too? I didnt want it to end and I fought for it, but I could only give my 50%. The rest is up to you and you're not there right now, so if I'm not OK with it ending I'm stuck. I didnt make the decision for this to end. You made that decision when you made it clear through your actions that you're not ready to do counseling to make it better, communicate honestly, or work through our issues together. What real effort can I make if that's where we are? This simply can't be smoothed over with promises and us pretending that things will be OK in the future if we keep doing things the way we've always done them. I've wanted to change and be better in this R and it would have been good for all of us if we could've worked throught that together and been better for each other, but for now, I have to focus on changing the things in me that won't work for me regardless of what R I'm in.
H: I'm sorry I make you so miserable
M: You dont make me miserable.. at all. I won't let you make me miserable. What made me miserable was trying so hard for something that I couldnt get. That's the difference now. I'm happy with things the way they are. I'm happy with me, I'm happy with the kids, happy with my family, friends, my job. The thing that was making me so unhappy was that I wasn't taking care of those things and I was focusing on our R and wallowing in the problems that have no solution right now. I wasn't healing because I thought you had to fix things before I could heal.. I was waiting on you to get better, but I'm not now. My happiness can't be about where you are or what you do or not do.

blah, blah.. then there was talk again from H about what he's going to do and take care of. And I said, you don't have to explain to me, but I'll listen if you need me to. The thing is.. I've said it over and over and it's finally sunk in with ME.. the words are not what matters. It's the actions that matter. It's seeing you get your life together that will make a difference in whether or not I could ever be in our R again. If you take care of your health for you, and your responsibilities, and basically get in a good place, then those things might make it safe again. I know it sounds like I'm still giving you a list and I don't know how else to say it, but I just really really hope that you take the opportunity to find out what makes you happy and to be the person you want to be because you've expressed so many times that you want to change things about yourself. If you try to do it to keep me, or for me, the timeline on that is short in your mind and you'll burn out trying to accomplish a long process by yesterday. But if you do it for you.. then you have a lifetime to accomplish that.

That's it.. interesting.. not sure what to make of it, but was a reinforcement of dropping the rope.

Nite!!

OK, what are your boundaries here?

Earlier in the summer when she was doing this, I felt like she was getting stuff out and using it to help heal. Now she's just venting anger, or trying to keep me in line with blame. I'm not as interested in that. So we'll see.


If you take care of your health for you, and your responsibilities, and basically get in a good place, then those things might make it safe again.

You know, I wonder if he's a little scared that if he really focuses on himself and not for your benefit, his feelings for you might fade? I don't think they would, we see that a lot on the boards. But it's scary to let go of that connection and actually do things for yourself. If he can make that step he might really start to have success, and feel worthy of your R. Could be!

But you're right about waiting for actions and you seem to really be accepting where you are headed right now. Just remember how to get back to that when/if something happens and you slip off it a little!

And I keep forgetting to tell you, way back when we had a discussion on caffeine injestion, I really cut back after that! Well, not so much today, but in general. It's actually more expensive because I buy two Diet cokes from the machine at work (total $1.20) instead of buying a 2L bottle at the store ($.99). But that means I drink two cans instead of two liters. So that's a good step for me, thanks to your thread!

I'm not as interested in that. So we'll see.
Good to hear that!!

You know, I wonder if he's a little scared that if he really focuses on himself and not for your benefit, his feelings for you might fade? Hadn't thought of this. Actually, his feelings for me probably should fade because I'm not entirely sure they are healthy feelings. Need vs. want. I'd rather him wake up himself and realize I'm not for him than to continue struggling and believe that fixing things with me will be the key to his happiness. Might be where we've went wrong much of the time. He's never been a happy, joyful kind of person, but he's not negative and down all the time either.. well, doesnt show it. I sense his lack of joy and run around trying to make him happy and it never gets the job done. He has our whole family doing it. D11 even asked me about her Dad's mood and why he's snapping her head off when he talks to her. I had to explain for 30 mins that it's not her fault and she's OK. I shouldnt have to tell an 11 year old that her father's feelings/moods are not her fault!!! She is SUCH an angel.. it makes me sad to think that she's learning to walk on eggshells and take responsibility for how other's choose treat her.

Just remember how to get back to that when/if something happens and you slip off it a little!
It's hard.. so very hard. I'm down and blue today. After two months, I think H finally realizes I'm serious about needing to see change before I can commit to our R again. So today he's very short and distant with me, which is OK, and I understand, but it makes me sad too. I know this is the RIGHT thing to do, but it doesn't make the sorrow and loneliness any less real for me. I feel strong, but I feel regret that things arent different and there's nothing I can do right now to change the R I have with H.. except to make it a friendship. But also letting go and finding my independence so it wont be like ripping off a bandaid when he moves out. Most of the time I don't miss him, but I've missed him today because he hasnt even been "there" when we've spoken. We're both very guarded and distant. Sigh.. I just wanna be held and for all of this to have been a bad dream. And I remember one of your posts to the same effect right before you turned a corner that resulted in more acceptance. So, Im hoping that this sorrow will lead to acceptance and acceptance will lead to peace that I can feel and not just understand the logic behind what I have to do right now.

Way to bust caffeine Bud!! And see, I didnt have to say hey Bud, how much caffeine are you drinking.. think you should cut back? You gathered the info, thought about it, made a decision and applied it to your life without me suggesting or doing it for you. That is exactly the kind of think I'd like to see my H doing for himself. He kinda stops at the appication Oh well, you give me hope that there are men out there who don't need a Mommy.

Hope you have a peaceful relaxing night!
Sheila

Journalling:

Since H and I are no longer working towards reconciling , I've decided to relocate and stop taking up space in piecing. I'll probably relocate to surviving as that's what I'm going to be focusing on... getting through this without going insane! It's hard to live with H this way (not that he's making it hard, but that it's just a stressful situation). It's weird to live here and not have the closeness that we've always had. H has been clear that this is MY choice and I'm going to have to work through that notion. It is my choice, but it's not. I didnt want this..there just isnt a way to piece our R back together right now, and although I won't completely admit it, I dont hold out hope that we'll ever be H and W again. Too much under the bridge now and I have scraped the bottom of the barrel as far as options to change things. So, I'm going with Dr. Dobson on this one. If staying with H means that I must abandon self respect and the promise of a healthy, loving R, than I can't stay. It's doubtful that H will do the work it'll take to bring us together before it's too late for me. I can feel the door closing more and more every day.

I had a talk with my SIL this afternoon. She has a close friend who's sitch almost mirrors ours. Her H is verbally abusive and there's ALOT of infidelity involved. Hearing her talk about the cycles that her friend has been through, and the promises that her H has made, and his refusal to commit to working on the R made me think about what advice I'd give a close friend. I'd say "If he hasn't changed in 17 years (almost the same amount of time me and H have been together), and you've divorced and reconciled once (same as me and H) and the same behavior is still present, then it will probably still be the same in 17 more years. Let go.. get out. Her H also won't work on MC with her. My H will go, but not put in the work. Her H just doesnt show up. They have three kids at home the same age as ours too.. within a year anyway. I know this friend.. she's a wonderful person.. good wife.. great mother.. absolutely gorgeous... has tried everything. She just married someone who's not good for her. I did the same.

So, off with my rambling. I'll post in surviving the next time I post.

I'm hoping someone over there will understand how it feels to have to end something that you wanted to hold on to so badly. It's kinda like slitting my own throat, except the ending is gonna be much better when I get there!

Sheila

I'm hoping someone over there will understand how it feels to have to end something that you wanted to hold on to so badly.

I'm not that person but I am very sorry this is how it is right now. You have certainly wanted this so badly and you've worked so hard, on yourself and on your M. And in reality, you're not truly done, you're just willing to be done and I think there's a difference. By continuing to work on you and becoming the person you want to feel happy about being, you're giving H every chance to get inspired and take it upon himself to follow your lead and do his own work.


So, off with my rambling. I'll post in surviving the next time I post.

Meet you there!

I'm back to this thread because don't know if we'll piece back together, but I also don't know that we wont.

I've added another SH book to my arsenal, and this one is something that I'm already seeing results with as far as my PMA. So until the time when I know what I know, I thought I'd work through some stuff journalling. The book is "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie. I've seen it mentioned on the BB by someone (if I could remember I'd give you credit!). The basic concept is that by applying four questions to a specific problem it will help you to see what is troubling you differently. To quote Byron Katie "It's not the problem that causes our suffering; it's our thinking about the problem." Understanding that our R tends to go in the direction of my attitude (unless H has done something particularly disruptive), improving my thoughts can't hurt. The more I concentrate on H's flaws and problems the harder it becomes for me to stay here. I'd venture to say that his problems aren't huge because we've had periods of relative piece, but I know he has major issues, and a few of them are very hard to live with day to day. The point is, can I love him in spite of those issues and not make them mine? And can he learn to manage his problems on his own, change what he wants to change, and be happy. I don't know, but I do know that the answer isn't going to show up on my door today, so finding peace is the best place to start. The boundaries are in place. I need to find a way to lovingly enforce those specific things without bringing additional turmoil into our situation. When H steps over the line, I tend to dig up more reasons that this R can't work instead of focusing specifically on what I'd like him to change. The discussions we have are defensive and don't produce positive changes. Maybe if I can change the way I think, it'll help both of us to focus on solutions instead of rehashing and defending ourselves.

The first part of what Katie calls The Work is to write a statement/judgement about someone without censoring it. She says to be judgemental, harsh, childish, and petty, totally honest about how you feel. To point the blame to people who've hurt you, caused anger, jealousy, etc. After doing this, the questions will be applied to each statement in order to find understanding.

It might take a bit for me to get a judgemental statement out about H. I do a lot of judging, but I went back and read my anger journal, and the statements were not pointedly judgemental. A lot of what's going on, how he contributed, how I contributed and they were solution oriented. I'll journal later when I can focus on my specific negative feelings about H. I'm kinda liking him right now because he fixed the dishwasher and put a new outlet in my bathroom this afternoon, so I'd hate to say anything bad about the guy who's renewed access to the hairdryer I'd say the dishwasher too, but it's been his peeve, not mine. I can wash by hand, but I don't air dry well!

Thanks for listening,

Sheila