I wanted to respond to you, MsNop. Yes, the "unofficial" stuff on her list (i.e. the "between the lines" stuff like, remembering to pick up a kid's pair of socks, or, as I will mention later, not contacting her at work) gets added into the official listed items, and gets critiqued immediately upon its discovery by her. For example, she'll see the socks and shoes on the floor, ask me to take care of it (usually while I'm working on something else), and then, when she returns from her errand, a half-hour later and sees them still on the floor, will say something like, "how come you didn't put the socks and shoes away?" But she doesn't really care about my answer, even if it is reasonable. She just wants to let me know that I have failed her once again. What she wants is a meaningful, "I'm sorry."
And yes, it is often this type of minutae that gets her started.
When do I get to score her on how well she is meeting my list items? I suppose I could do the ongoing commentary, but, knowing how annoying it is, I choose not to. Rather, I wait until the MC appointment, when the MC asks us how each of us is doing on the other's list. Unless, of course, I feel she is violating a boundary (List item # 2), at which time I will let her know.
You asked
Quote: are you allowed to express your stress the same way your wife does?
"Allowed?" I don't know if it's a question of being "allowed." It's just not the type of person I am. And how would I express my stress-related frustration over her lack of effort in the physical touch category, or the making love category (List items #5 and #6)? "Excuse me, but did you not realize that you've walked past me all day without once touching me?" Or, as she is falling asleep next to me, "uh, I understand your need for sleep, but you really need to put the 'making love' item higher on your list. I just don't see you trying hard enough."
Sorry, but that's not my style. I KNOW how annoying it is.
But here's a story from last night that shows me that not taking her crap is a good thing.
She got upset with me after I called her at work to ask her about something that is actually quite relevant to her list. I had a coupon for 25 cents off each gallon of gas at the gas station in our local grocery chain parking lot, if you spent at least $30 on groceries. Not a bad deal. Problem: our budget is on a monthly basis and we are actually out of money in the "food" category until next Tuesday.
Now, I know this may sound silly to you, especially if you're not the "budget" type (like me), but the budget is her baby, and you do not violate the budget. If you recall, last month I went out to lunch with a co-worker and spent $15 on my lunch. Although W was upset about the fact that I went out with this female co-worker (who I've known for 15 years), she focused on the money aspect, and basically went ballistic. So, just accept this statement: The budget is important.
I decided that I'd be cautious, knowing that it was close to the end of the month, and I'd check the budget, which is a Microsoft Money program on our pc. Check...hmmm...we're already about $5 over on food this month. Hmmm...we have $50 left for gas, though. I decide to call her, because I know that the budget is her baby, and it's just easier to put the question to her, rather than to be presumptuous and spend $$ in one category, on another category.
I called, and she was upset with that. No recognition that it was prudent of me to check the budget, to call her with a question. No...it was wrong of me to call her at work because she is very busy.
When she got home (and, thanks to cell phones, during her drive home), she lambasted me for bothering her on a day when I KNEW she was swamped, not properly exercising my discretion by failing to wait until she got home to talk to her about this, and causing her even more stress.
After listening to her rant and trying to explain my justification (dang, Corri, you were supposed to be yelling in my ear, "stay out of her sh!t!"), I decided to say, "I'm done trying to discuss this with you."
She went on for a while, saying that I should apologize to her for bothering her, but I just ignored her and went back to work. She left me alone, and went upstairs for a while. She came down, came up behind me (I was on the pc) and asked me, in her nice voice, what I was doing. I told her that I was reading an article on something. She put her hands on my shoulders, and even played with my hair.
On the way to our DD4's swim lesson, she called me and apologized for being so testy.
Quote: "Allowed?" I don't know if it's a question of being "allowed." It's just not the type of person I am. And how would I express my stress-related frustration over her lack of effort in the physical touch category, or the making love category (List items #5 and #6)? "Excuse me, but did you not realize that you've walked past me all day without once touching me?" Or, as she is falling asleep next to me, "uh, I understand your need for sleep, but you really need to put the 'making love' item higher on your list. I just don't see you trying hard enough."
Sorry, but that's not my style. I KNOW how annoying it is.
Let me explain where I'm coming from here. I'm a big believer in "atmosphere". For instance, back when our child was young and got excessively rowdy, there would be times when I would tell her, "You're not contributing to the peace of our home". When NOP came home from work, our home was a place of refuge for him. The peace had become so palpable, that we had people comment on it. That peace was eventually replaced by the disconnect and stresses of our damaged relationship.
I'm a believe in atmosphere for relationships, too. The blinking light for me was your expression regarding her upcoming arrival at home.
You're a grown man, HD. You are a decent man. I cringe when I read your descriptions of her "corrections" of you, her *demands* for your apology. I firmly believe that if you reflected her behavior back to her, that you would find how much she would NOT tolerate experiencing what she does to you so often.
This isn't just emasculating behavior, it borders on the abusive. Fear of or concern for having to deal with your spouse's anger over such innocuous situations is not a healthy atmosphere.
Quote: I called, and she was upset with that. No recognition that it was prudent of me to check the budget, to call her with a question. No...it was wrong of me to call her at work because she is very busy.
When she got home (and, thanks to cell phones, during her drive home), she lambasted me for bothering her on a day when I KNEW she was swamped, not properly exercising my discretion by failing to wait until she got home to talk to her about this, and causing her even more stress.
After listening to her rant and trying to explain my justification (dang, Corri, you were supposed to be yelling in my ear, "stay out of her sh!t!"), I decided to say, "I'm done trying to discuss this with you."
See, I think you should draw the line immediately when the rant begins.
If you called at a bad time, she could simply say "this is a bad time, I'll talk to you later." Calling at a bad time should not result in the emotional expenditure that occurred in your hom.
I understand that your personality is not inclined to get in her face the way she gets into yours on a regular basis. But that doesn't mean that you have to continue to tolerate her behavior. I think you should *never* try to justify your actions to her until your relationship has some semblance of equality. As soon as the rant starts, what would happen if you said immediately "I am not going to tolerate this." and walked away right then?
Because that's what I think you should do. Don't volunteer to be her stress whipping-boy. You didn't have a discussion, you had her accusations of wrong doing and your attempts to explain why you had the audacity to call her. You are already in a losing, submissive position.
I think you need to stop placing yourself there. Whenever she starts expressing her anger at you, let her talk to the walls, or the door.
Funny, that's exactly what the MC said to me. "Why do you engage?" Just say that you won't argue with her, and walk away.
Point taken.
And funny you should mention "whipping boy." It's exactly the term I used when I told her to lighten up last night.
And finally, as a co-worker just mentioned to me, this is not about "taking back my power." Putting this all in terms of "power" or "control" is buying into her framework of the relationship. No, this is about two adults, with equal rights and responsibilities, treating each other with respect and love.
Hairy, I don't know if this is relevant or not, but I have shades of MrsHD's blowupitis in me. If I feel stressed, I have (used to have?) a tendency to blast the next person in line. Which was usually H.
He, by nature, is a blame-taker. Like you, it's not his style to get right back in my face; he's the type to get introspective at the onslaught of my words and say, Yeah I guess I shouldn't have called with such a petty issue and not even *get into* the fact that I didn't have to blast him with a snotty attitude, at all.
When H pulled away from me abruptly, many years ago, I had a chance to really examine my own behavior and see if I was even a person with whom he'd like to get close. My analysis? I can be an awesome, loving lady. But I have a mean streak in me that absolutely must be shelved. There is no excuse for her to slink out of the slimy hole she inhabits and be a part of our interactions.
It was hard to do this when I was seriously sex-starved. Nay, impossible. I simply was not strong enough to kick her azz back into the slimy hole while out of my mind with physical frustration. But I did start a campaign whereby I vowed to be the nice honey all the time and curb my dang temper.
It has produced some of the finest and sweetest fruits of any modification we've done. It was loooong overdue.
My point, I guess, is that this is not something that can't be overcome. Also, it helped me that he totally pulled away from me and allowed me to examine my role in it. I was nowhere near MrsHD's level of hostility but, really, does that matter? My blastings hurt MrH a lot and always, always took him off guard--the worst kind of blasting there is, imo. I also wanted to reiterate what you already know--that being firm and strong and unwavering in your stance will stop her in her tracks.
And, dude, hair playing?????
I think you need to bother her at work more often, lol. The adrenaline of getting pissed off seems to have stirred up some other bodily cocktail in her.
For example, she'll see the socks and shoes on the floor, ask me to take care of it (usually while I'm working on something else), and then, when she returns from her errand, a half-hour later and sees them still on the floor, will say something like, "how come you didn't put the socks and shoes away?" But she doesn't really care about my answer, even if it is reasonable. She just wants to let me know that I have failed her once again.
HD
When she does stupid stuff like this and you are busy try.
Well I am in the midst of doing something at the moment now if those socks and shoes need tending to in the real near future you might want to pick them up yourself.
My step dad use to do this. He would walk past something out of place 80 times in 10 minutes and bitch about it no matter how busy others were but would never do the simple thing. Put it were it belongs himself instead he expected everyone else to drop what they were doing and come running.
Good job standing your ground and not playing her games!
Quote: After listening to her rant and trying to explain my justification (dang, Corri, you were supposed to be yelling in my ear, "stay out of her sh!t!"), I decided to say, "I'm done trying to discuss this with you."
She went on for a while, saying that I should apologize to her for bothering her, but I just ignored her and went back to work. She left me alone, and went upstairs for a while. She came down, came up behind me (I was on the pc) and asked me, in her nice voice, what I was doing. I told her that I was reading an article on something. She put her hands on my shoulders, and even played with my hair.
On the way to our DD4's swim lesson, she called me and apologized for being so testy.
So, uh, yeah, I need to do more of this.
Hairdog
Hairdog,
Methinks you and I are learning some things this week. Sure seems kinda humbling, tho, that after four years of deep analytical thought, reading, pondering, prayer, etc., that perhaps all I needed to do was "pull a George Costanza."
Your W reminds me so much of what my late H used to say about his first W. She was also a One and was NEVER wrong about anything, never changed her mind, never gave in on a point. She was also very firm about money. She would not discuss money in the evening. Period. If he wanted to talk about money, he had to call her during the day. She was a SAHM. If he did bring up ANYTHING having to do with money in the evening-- even planning the $$ part of a vacation or something-- she would hold up her hand and say, "I won't discuss money in the evening." Those Ones have such an unwavering sense of what's Right and Wrong-- to them.
First, I want to say that Mrs. Nop and I are saying the same things to you with different vernacular because of background and obvious shadings from age and gender. If I were a guy I would prefer hers too. Maybe.
trying to explain my justification Ughh, trying to logical an emotional outburst. I won't say it.
how come you didn't put the socks and shoes away?"
'do it yourself, or get off my back'. Neutral, no anger. Ignore her anger and remove self if it arrives.
I feel she is violating a boundary
'Knock it off'. "The way you are acting -right now -is not acceptable'.
I'm done trying to discuss this with you."
Good job. Sooner next time. You did not supplicate, you did not try to reassure, you did not try to fix. So she did. Its so sweet and you felt better too. Make yourself feel good, more often, and I bet she will want to make you 'feel good' too. Even I am astounded that it happened this fast, from the picture you have painted.
You have a REAL chance at turning things around quickly, IF you can change yourself. Write down 100 x I will not take her disrespect. Or say it everytime you look in a mirror. Both would be better.
Sorry, but that's not my style. I KNOW how annoying it is.
Change your style. Mrs.Nop calls it reflecting bad behavior. I call it being dominant. You are both acting the way you want the other to act. Do you understand this? You can change yours without being annoying or negative. Too much. She will get over it, and better yet you will probably get sum.
Putting this all in terms of "power" or "control" is buying into her framework of the relationship. No, this is about two adults, with equal rights and responsibilities, treating each other with respect and love
umm ok if this makes you feel better. Its her framework because that is what subconciously she is attracted to. You cannot change that. Your equal rights, responsiblities, is P.C. rhetoric.
It is about power. You both have the right to be respected and loved, but they are not equal. You have to enforce yours, earning respect by not allowing her bad behavior, without anger or negativity, and give her respect and love . She cannot enforce it. Well-- she can try but it does not have the same effect.
HP said
Quote: that being firm and strong and unwavering in your stance will stop her in her tracks.
simple? I dunno, but it is amazing that they do stop with a few simple words uttered by us and revert to nice girl. Even the Valkyrie here admits it.
Some other thought from previous thread. The guys here who are not getting respect, you have to rock the boat, you have to point out what she needs to work on. Treating her as you want her to treat you is not going to work.
Quote: It's like there's ongoing scoring, but she's the only one at the judge's table.
be a judge or get judged. it is your choice.
Hairy, how about just getting the groceries and gas, and if she raises a stink say 'I did it. Its done. You can be courteous and find out why or you can keep quiet'.
You checked the budget first, you were not being irresponsible or passive aggresive. you were being proactive. You are the man, give yourself permission. PLEASE. The results will shock you some more.
Its so sweet and you felt better too. Make yourself feel good, more often, and I bet she will want to make you 'feel good' too. Even I am astounded that it happened this fast, from the picture you have painted.