Quote: "About a year into my M I realized my H didn't think I "needed" him...it didn't matter that I "wanted" him"
chromosphere, GEL The way I see this is "being needed" can be like going to a job every day that you don't like that much, but need the money.
OTH "being wanted" is like being rich but going to a job because you like the work, people, what ever. It's something like winning the lottery (I neve play) and keeping your job.
There are third and forth condition. 3. I need you and I want you, that's a very strong position. 4. And I don't need and don't want you, that is very weak position for people to stay married.
GEL I am strongly against him flat out explaining it. Generally in my experience women do not want a man to need them. It is not strong, or independant. You figured it out. That is entirely different, and is exactly what the Men Women adore book trys to teach them. For the women here, there are far better books for less then the $40. I thought it was overpriced. I dont see anyone here except maybe Chrissy or LFL, for differrent reasons, not lumping you two together, who may benefit from it. DB when applied will lead to the same results but maybe not with a clear understanding, or enlightened moment like GEL had.
I have seen the looks on womens faces when men say I need you. 2 friends 1 losing long time GF, 1 going thru D. My mom and stepdad during there D. Various voyeuristic moments as a bartender.
A bloated rotting horse carcass would seem to be the fountain of youth compared to the revulsion, derision, and abhorrance they show when a man does this.
No I have to unequivocally veto this particular idea, especially at this juncture in ther R. Too supplicating, to desperate, to ... needy.
His W does actually need him in many ways and she is ungrateful and spouts off garbage about not doing so. She wouldnt appreciate this as an attempt at EC or becoming closer.
I do recall talking to her about this once..... long ago sometime. I need to readdress it. I'll try to think/wait for an opportune time to bring it up. And your right, it does need to be "flat out."
Wow, such a different perspective. The problem in my own relationship is that I am needed. I am needed for my income, I am needed to dirve the kids, I am needed to go to kids activities, I am needed to go to the store, I am needed to take care of the house, I am needed to be a roomate. I HATE being "needed". My guess to is that my wife HATES being "needed" as well, mainly the physical stuff. For most of us "need" causes resentment, loss of respect. Most people want to be "Wanted". Being "Wanted" is what makes marriage work for most of us. As a side note, most people that were abused in any way as children will have a very hard time to actually "Want" someone latere in life, and this can develop long after marriage. Being "Wanted" is VERY "Risky". You have to lay it all on the line, this is NOT unconditional love. This may be why you want to be needed, it is unconditional love, like what a dog has for it's master. The dog "needs" its master to provide for him, and the dog always bounds to meet the master, no matter what. True success in marriage requires taking risk, security KILLS marriage.
Stigmata, dont know if you have a plan, if your W is having A or if she is just a WA, I am assuming A.
There was a poster here named CSW, and NOPkins gave him a lot of great advice that applies no matter the details.
If you havent read thru his threads do so and check out the advice. Doing the Shuffle
There are several threads prior to this one follow the links, lots of good advice from everyone. There are also several recommended Reads in the threads.
here is one more I came across a couple months ago. Its a quick read, too the point and makes the affair about the cheaters not the LBS. Which it is.
Quote: Stigmata, dont know if you have a plan, if your W is having A or if she is just a WA, I am assuming A.
There was a poster here named CSW, and NOPkins gave him a lot of great advice that applies no matter the details. If you havent read thru his threads do so and check out the advice.
Blackfoot,
Just happened across this thread; glad I caught your post.
I think my S is a WA and my gut is telling me she's just begun a new A.
If hindsight is 20/20 the insights on these boards brings it down to 20/10. (btw, best human sight ever recorded is 20/08...don't know why that would mean a hill of beans here, so...). Anyway, the reason I say this is I discovered she had a PA 4 years ago, we've been together for 6. I knew something was up the whole time during the 2.5 month tryst but I couldn't prove it and I was too arrogant to believe she would have any reason to cheat.
Well, the absolutely horrible part of it was the OM started calling our apt. leaving messages on the answering machine about the A...for my benefit, of course. She denied it like a grand champion of Sicilian liars (delivering previous in that distinctive Chris Walken manner)...I almost believed her until I saw it in black and white via some agonizingly painful chat logs between them.
And I say it was absolutely horrible when the OM started calling b/c it is probably the reason why I'm where I am now. See, she had actually ENDED the A weeks before and I, of course, was never supposed to find out about it...and I wish I hadn't. Even Cs say if an A is over and a S doesn't know about it then it's better not to tell them after the fact b/c it's a whole new can of worms. As are prob. the toughest thing for any partner to get past.
Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
We had always joked to each other what we would do to the other's unmentionable region if either one of us were to cheat and there I was staring at the truth right in her face. I went numb.
A wise sage said, 'to forgive and forget is to be naive; to never forgive and never forget is to find yourself alone; so you must forgive but never forget." Or something along those lines.
I forgave but the not forgetting turned me into an insecure, overly jealous nightmare inside...which found its way out from time to time. Questioning her dealings with male friends etc. Vvvvery unattractive.
Add to the the fact that I did EVERYTHING to make her life easier when she was not working her long hours...gourmet meals, home improvements, starting her car every morning during the icy winters etc. etc. and I now realize I became her Cato (of Pink Panther origin not 'Kato' Farrah Fawcett haired OJ asshat). It's not out of insecurity that I had done these things. It's who I am. I believe (or had believed anyway) in chivalry...in laying your topcoat over the puddle forr a lady; in being a knight in shining armor.
Compounding this, I, again, arrogantly thought I knew what women wanted. Many...many of her girlfriends were extremely jealous. Nightly foot rubs, hand massages, head massages, cuddling, spooning etc. etc. since she was so tired all of the time from her job... She didn't want a wham, bam, thank you for my benefit...or at least I foolishly thought. Throw in other stresses, raising her psychotic ADHD puppy, dealing with tenants from our rental house...a perfect storm that resulted in little/no actual sex or even a vacation full of sex together to recharge.
And, worst of all, ZERO communication about unmet needs/wants, whatever semantics/terminology you guys are settling on at present. Two hours of TV on the couch then off to bed we went to crash in exhaustion....until it became routine, day after day, night after night.
Routine is death. Security is death. Complacency is death. Comfort is death. "Such a Nice Guy" (friends) is DEATH.
My 'Man Card' was revoked and I deserved it. Her feelings are valid. She lost the 'spark' and doesn't feel it for me anymore. At least I told her I accept her feelings completely and didn't beg, plead, cry or the like in front of her; I had some dignity left in my completely wussified persona.
Anyway, this is turning into a freakin' novella so I'll just say things went downhill a few months ago when her work role changed. She began flying to various sales conferences...I pushed her to go for sales as that's where the money is...
Well, it's a recipe for disaster. Posh hotels, fancy dinners, late night bar hopping, etc...all to get people to 'network.' And she went alone nearly every time.
And now it seems all the new friends she has made at these events are D men and her new best friend is a D woman, who just left her alkie husband. How many of them do you suppose are bitter about M?
So let me be a warning to you XY chromosome cretins. Women say they want comfortable, sensitive, loyal, and safe men in any long term R but it only goes so far. Ever play the game "Kill, Marry, F$#^" with a woman? It's a game where you ask a woman, for instance, "BFoot, Stigmata, or Cobra. If you HAD to pick one for the following fates who would you kill, who would you marry, and who would you F?" It's scary if you play it with mutual M-Fs...and very revealing.
Anyway, back to my sitch, when some helmet at a conference with a slick sales rap, sharp attire, cocktails hits the right buttons on a woman who feels no 'spark', head for the hills. Game over. He's mysterious. He's confident. He knows what to say. She gets his "A" game. It's not him they're seeing, it's his representative.
The real "him" probably has a ton of baggage and bizarre idiosyncracies that he will never expose as this new "rogue." 5 years down the road in a R she might be contemplating introducing his cranium to a Louisville Slugger. but by then you're just a tiny footnote in her rear view mirror.
Anyway, this all gets to the title of the thread "Attitude" and how the sexes must act. And I must say, I lean towards BF's views on gender roles, whether it's PC or un-PC...and I will continue reading these posts as part of my tough education and penance.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Sorry you don't think I addressed any of your issues. I'm just a lazy, self-absorbed kind of guy who looks at life through his own lense. I guess if I can avoid a difficult subject, I'll do it.
I don't know what Eeyore type comments are.
Compounding this, I, again, arrogantly thought I knew what women wanted. Many...many of her girlfriends were extremely jealous. Nightly foot rubs, hand massages, head massages, cuddling, spooning etc. etc. since she was so tired all of the time from her job..
This pretty much describes my experience with my WS both before and after the discovery of the affair. Was it wrong? I don't know, it seemed right at the time and still does, to an extent. Zero discussion of unmet needs - well some are coming out from our MC, but my WS wants to suspend that because this is a busy time of year for her - she is a grade-school teacher and the bustle doesn't slow down until after Christmas. I don't like the thought of suspending the MC and have told her so; but my job is up in the air so I don't know if I could afford it much longer anyway. I am not very communicative right now; it is Monday morning and we had a busy weekend.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
As are prob. the toughest thing for any partner to get past. ....Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
I prefer to know the truth and deal with it as best I can or can't.
I pushed her to go for sales as that's where the money is...
ahh thats the best part, knowing how much you did to help them become the person OP is having fun and reaping the rewards with.
purging---
So I thought I was going to get my piece of paper tomorrow. No such luck. She didnt file as she said nearly 6 months ago (again), but she did 6 days ago. Got served today. So thats 2 times now she has F'ed around with the paperwork, short version she didnt do it correctly first time, wouldnt have gone thru,(intentional? claims not but her job is massive paperwork requiring tremendous attention to detail, and she is very good at it.) found out after we were back together. x is unwilling to give me what she claims to want (and truth be said is showing with her actions) so I can move on with my conscience clear. Let me go she has repeatedly said. Um I did how much clearer can I be than not ever contacting you for 5 months.... Finish what you started please.
Recieved voicemail tonight telling me when courtdate is; which when she last informed me of proceedings would not happen, it was to be paper only. We were both pleased with this it seemed at the time. At least she hopes I am doing well. Thats nice.
HD do I have to show up? I have already wasted 9 years, I cant imaging wasting a whole days revenue for this.
Its interesting to watch her attempts 'to get my goat' escalating. So according to the script. It just increases my lack of respect for her. As does continued contact with me, since she has OM and OR. Have some dignity, show OM some respect, for that matter have some for yourself. I expected no contact with OM when we reconciled, why would I not apply this same rule since you two are acting as H and W with your conjugal visit(s)? I respect selfishness. I respect if someone is unable or ceases to meet all your 'needs' and you choose to leave. That can be accomplished with integrity and honor. Why the need for vindictive, vengeful, acts of seeming retribution?
I expect next she will be cleaning out joint savings and my checking which has her name on it still since I placed it there before moving out of other state. I have mentioned before she destroys things around her when hurt/angry. I remember I did for the first time in years when she recontacted OM the first time. I still feel chagrin over my lack of control.
It was interesting to me that Cobra takes TKD as I have found generally people are drawn to what is like them. I was heavily into Aikido. its very circular, based on defense instead of offense, and basically uses the attackers own energy to destroy them. In other words they wouldnt get hurt if they werent trying to cause hurt. It appears to be reactive, but actually requires knowing OP moves before they do.
I find this whole thing so sad and wasteful. Its been 17 months now. Think how much can be accomplished in that time when energy is put towards positive goals. I think of how much I have accomplished despite all the crap.
"You do not truly know someone, untill you have fought them."
Quote:
I didn't mean to suggest that any of these things are set up by either party as tests. It's just that they often turn out to have been tests after the fact.
That's also not to say that people don't sometimes create situations AS tests.
My point was that the ordinary bumps and ridges of everyday life naturally create events that give each partner the challenge and opportunity to react graciously and compassionately like a grownup or withdraw in a pout like a cranky toddler.
Lil I am absolutely riveted by this post. You are a fantastic conveyor of thoughts.
I am not ignoring the implications, by stating that I am ignoring what you may be implying.
There is a muffled, tinny sounding voice in my head when I read this. I think I need to sound proof the room I placed it in.
I'm sorry for what you are experiencing. My ex-H did not show to our D hearing and there was no need. Everything had really been worked out already, a consent order was signed and there was a witness that could state that we had no cohabitated in 1 year. That was MD. Other states are different.
I was interested in your analysis of martial arts. I took Ichinryu and TKD. I LOVED it. They are both completely out of character for me. I loved the challenge of sparring because my opponents found my weak points and I could work on them. I hated the aggressive aspect of sparring. My favorite stuff was kicking/punching drills and kata/forms. I loved the meditative aspect of practicing. For anyone who has never experienced the martial arts I heartily reccommend them - Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Tae Kwan Do, Aikido, Jujitsu - they are all different but a real mind/body education.
As far as the feeling of time wasted in the marriage etc... I know that feeling well. I was married for 10 years. You have to mourn the marriage. At some point you have to come to terms with your own culpability in it. Many would say I had none - ex-H was a drug using physician, verbally abusive, unable to negotiate life or relationships, mentally ill etc... Well, I lived it. I did have very specific areas of culpability. I am not responsible for everything that happened but I know where my responsibility lies. Ultimately, I came to a place where I also understood that ex-H did his best with the tools he brought to the situation. I couldn't hold it together with what he brought to the table. It is sad. I mourned it. I buried it and I moved on. We don't fight anymore, we have fairly friendly convos although exH is still everything I just said minus the drugs. Ex-H doesn't pay child support or handle visitation reliably. Why be mad? It is just who he his.
My point? Mourn your M. Identify your mistakes. Be brutally honest with yourself when you are ready. Ultimately, forgive yourself and her. It takes time but the peace in the end is worth it.
Quote: As are prob. the toughest thing for any partner to get past. ....Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
"I prefer to know the truth and deal with it as best I can or can't."
--Same here. But I only see this happening in a world in which we have the ability to "mind-meld" to our partners to hear/feel how they really feelabout us and any situation; ie, true remorse/regret. Okay, I know I'm being cynical as I'm sure there are ladies and gentlemen on this board who still believe in personal integrity.
And I have much more respect for those who "come clean" about an A than those who get caught or try and keep the dirty little secret (like my x). I recently read an author's address of As in which he said, [if his/her first reaction is, 'can't we just start over with a clean slate?' They are not truly remorseful and you'd better watch out."
I pushed her to go for sales as that's where the money is...
"ahh thats the best part, knowing how much you did to help them become the person OP is having fun and reaping the rewards with."
--And I knew there might be some tests from this. Almost a foreboding but I didn't want to appear insecure and just swallowed my fears. No offense to sales people but I've heard some slippery sales guy-types so silver-tongued they could sell ketchup popsicles to old ladies in white gloves.
"...attention to detail, and she is very good at it.) found out after we were back together. x is unwilling to give me what she claims to want (and truth be said is showing with her actions) so I can move on with my conscience clear...."
--Intentional 'mistake' first time? It does smell fishy. To me it looks like she gave you the shot over your bow to get your reaction. I also think at that point she probably hadn't convinced herself this is what she wanted. It is also somewhat possible her subconscious fudge the papers and she didn't even realize it.
"Let me go she has repeatedly said. Um I did how much clearer can I be than not ever contacting you for 5 months.... Finish what you started please."
--Again, her guilt is making her deploy an irrational defense mechanism. She's projecting behavior onto you that she desperately wishes were true so the process will be easier on her...she is fighting guilt feelings of looking like the 'bad guy.' or the executioner.
"Let me go" suggests you are holding on, thus pushing her away and giving her the green light to run from the M. But you're not playing that game.
I also think she is scared. Too much responsibility to end an M yourself. Digging deeper, I also might think she might be dragging her feet as a last ditch to draw you out to defend the M. Essentially, perhaps she is internally upset that you seem to be letting go too easily and she's using this "Let me go" fantasy to get you to chase her again.
Are any of us ABSOLUTELY sure we want to permanently end a long term R?
Now this is dangerous b/c she may not want you back. Worst case scen. is it's a trap and once you start to pursue, boom, her power is restored. She may just crave your attention/desire so she feels as though she has the control back. Your 5 month silence has taken that power away from her and...she...does...not...like it.
"...need for vindictive, vengeful, acts of seeming retribution?"
--Projecting again. Since we're on the Kato thread, it's like OJ convincing himself he did not murder two people. She's convincing herself that you started this.
You are supposed to be the bad guy and she is fighting guilt feelings of being the bad guy so much that her mind is trying to warp reality; ie, "Let me go!" She lost her power over you and she's throwing a tantrum over it. And she's probably also vengeful and pouting b/c you are not playing by her rules of supplication/begging etc. And just when you start to figure out what the rules are, she will change them.
'BF wants a divorce so bad I'll show HIM a thing or two.' Of course, it makes no sense.
She might also be using it to bait you into an emotional outburst/eye for an eye behavior. If you blow up she will point her finger and happily yell, See what he's doing?!" Instant justification for the D and she tightens the screws. Cool and detached, my friend. Cool and aloof.
Ever just smile at someone shouting you down? I have and heartily recommend it. Makes them insane and they give up/fold like a deck of cards.
" I expect next she will be cleaning out joint savings and my checking which has her name on it still since I placed it there before moving out of other state."
--Count on it. Dealing with that now. Transferred to her own account. I told her to close the joint but she's leaving it open for now. Will see what happens/what that means as more time passes.
"I have mentioned before she destroys things around her when hurt/angry."
--Ah, yes, the lashing out. Sign of immaturity/selfish personalities. Like the child who destroys a sibling's artwork/construct after he/she couldn't handle being called names, no matter how harmless the names were from the others.
Blackie, I'm curious. Was she an only child or perhaps an only girl sibling? And, if so, was she spoiled rotten?
Mine was an only child and spoiled rotten. She seems to share a lot of your x's traits. And it's becoming hard to DB someone so self-absorbed and and insensitive. It's only been about 3 weeks since I left and I can't go through what you've gone through for 17 months. No way.
BTW, after both of us being "dark" I gotta call from her the other day. Just letting me know she totaled the car and another family's poor vehicle on her way to the airport for another jet-setting conference overseas. Naturally, my name is on the title and insurance...so a nice bonus for me.
She was banged up but still determined to go to conference and got flight next day. Wouldn't want to miss flashing the corporate Amex and hanging out with all her new buddies. Old her would have stayed home and had me take care of her aches. MLC or basking in all the attention she's been receiving? Think it's the latter. Narcissistic or Histrionic Personality Disorder? Not sure, but signs are there.
"Cobra and TKD; Blackfoot and Aikido"
--And I prefer Brazilian Ju Jit Su for similar reasons. Grappling, submission and pressure point moves in lieu of striking moves.
But I do like to work a heavy bag to "get it all out."
"You do not truly know someone, untill you have fought them."
--And I'll add, "People appear normal...until you get to know them" -Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
