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Hi Bud! Thanks for checking on me I think things are kind of indifferent right now. It's been an uneventful week for me.

I think H would say that I've been mad at him most of the week, but I haven't. I've taken a stand on a couple of issues and he hasn't liked it. He gets right back into that "I promise I'll do better" mode and spins his wheels attempts to smooth things over and then keeps a close eye on how I'm feeling.

I feel differently about that cycle than I have in the past. It used to make me feel helpless, but now I realize that I have a choice. I've backed off contributing to the cycle by not being so vocal, or telling H what he should do. I express my feelings, but am learning to put responsibility on his shoulders. I have an opinion, but now I know that I don't have to share it just because I think it. And, I realize too that I have a choice about whether or not to continue our R and I'll be OK if I decide that this isn't something I want to be a part of long term. Depends on if our R becomes a sitch that adds to my life, or if it continues to subtract from it. It comes back to what you said on my last thread.. about matters of practicality. H and I CAN work this out, but do I want to since we're still struggling with issues that have been a problem for years and years with no resolution? We can be loving and close, but practically, is he someone I want to spend the rest of my life with? I'm not sure. I'm not in a hurry to make the decision, but although our R is changing for the better, he isnt becoming much more responsible (just a little.. I'm hoping it's baby steps), or less passive. I'm not sure he's decided that he needs that for himself or is willing to work on that.. so, the ball will continue to be in my court to decide when I've given the R enough time and if I can handle a long-term R with H if he doesn't change.

I've been taking good care of myself. I've been going to the gym regularly and reading. Not reading R books, but reading for relaxation. I picked up a couple of beginner yoga tapes yesterday and D11 and I are gonna give it a try this evening. I'm determined to lead the life I want to live regardless of what H does or doesn't do. He can contribute to a good life together or not, but I'm not going to allow him to de-rail me from my goals any longer.

So, the indifference. I have no idea where this is going, but unfortunately, it all looks too familiar for me to be thrilled. The positive is that things aren't emotionally charged and negative. I'm not spending so much time analyzing myself and H and our R. We're the same people we've always been.. hopefully changing together for a stronger R, but I can only do my part. I know I'm capable of having a happy, healthy, loving R with a man. I regret that I've let the last year throw me into the tail spin that it has and make me doubt myself and feel guilty for not being perfect. I'm sane, smart, fun, attractive, healthy, honest, compassionate and understanding. I'm also a wonderful mother and loyal friend. I've spent the last 6 months trying to change some of that. Trying to not be so responsible and driven.. not be a fixer or caretaker. But, it's who I am. I'm not a controlling b*tch.. never have been. I like to take care of the people I love and I like to be taken care of too. If H views me saying that his financial irresponsibility and dishonesty is wrong as trying to control him. Then well, that's his problem. I still think he should be a more responsible husband and father and don't mind saying it if it needs to be said. I'll always think lying is WRONG and if confronting the lies and being angry about them makes him think I'm a b*tch.. then that is also his problem. The fact is.... the other people in my life don't mind that I'd expect them to be mature, financially responsible and honest when dealing with me. They expect the same out of me and I'd want them to point it out if I was making decisions that would destroy my family. H needs to grow up, get a clue, and stop trying to convince me that our problems are a problem of perception on my part. I contribute to them sure, but if I was out of the picture, he'd still be facing the same problems in his life.. and I wouldn't be around to clean up the messes he makes.

I'm getting stronger I sense H trying to pull me back into the drama, but I'm not budging. He's been passively snippy the last couple of days. He's been whining because we haven't ML (he's been feeling under the weather), yet he hasn't tried to initiate it either. He's blaming it on me being mad (I havent been), me not taking his "hints" (umm??? I dont get hints.. meet me naked in the shower and I'll understand that. DOH!) Basically, I think he's stirring things up to provoke my anger because it's always been motivating for him in some way. Well, I'm not angry, I'd ML with him if I knew he was feeling OK and initiated it. I love him, but am not taking the bait to argue so he can vent and feel better and blame it on me. He's called me three times in the last two hours and asked me if I'm mad at him.. I've said "no". That's all he's getting. I'm not.. I'm not asking him why he thinks that.. I'm not gonna tell him it's irritating when he asks, and I'm not gonna let it p*ss me off when he huffs before hanging up the phone. I've got a new book to read... I'm going home and making stuffed pizza.. doing yoga with Brooke, taking a hot bath, painting my nails and reading before bed. Somewhere in between I'm going to start a tickle fight with the boys so I can hear their laughter, and hopefully H will join in and have a happy night too. If he wants to ML.. he'll let me know. I'm not going to initiate it just because he's been hinting for a week and whining. I used to go all out making sure that I responded to his passive clues, but this time, he needs to find the way himself. I mean, I wish I could just say "I miss you" to someone and they'd start lighting candles, setting the mood, wearing something sexy to please me. H is going to have to learn that he gets the best results by taking action and not saying words.. that I'm not his puppet that he can set in motion by passive comments and body language. If he wants some tonight he might want to set the mood for me for a change.. run a bath, light some candles, and make an effort. On the other hand, if I decide I'm in the mood, I'll initiate it because I want to.. not because it's been awhile and he's getting impatient, or we're drifting apart.

Thanks again for asking Bud. I didnt know that I needed to vent a little, but apparently I did I feel better now. I'm feeling stronger.. it's gonna be all right and I don't have to be in a hurry... I'm OK today and not worried about the future.

You know, you've had several posts where you sounded a lot happier and more optimistic than you do in this one. But this may be your best post. You sound very calm and accepting and forward thinking. You have hope but not out of desperation. It just seems like you're centered and willing to stick with this R and make your side of it work over the long term without burning yourself out. If you eventually decide you need to give it up, it won't be because you just can't take it any more. It would be because you've decided it's no longer productive to continue. I think that provides the optimum chance of working things out.

Stay in ths place mentally as long as you can. When you slip, have the tenacity to keep coming back to this place in your head. Nobody can keep themselves centered like this all the time except maybe monks on a mountaintop. But with determination you can always get yourself back to here.

Good luck!

Oh Bud, I wish I had read your post before talking to H this morning on the phone. I needed sane advice! You're right. I have been centered, calm, forward thinking and optimistic.. about MY life. I have been reserving my energy to work on my contributions to the R with H without over compensating for his lack of effort.

He is clearly threatened by me being grounded. The less I respond to his attempts to passively control me, the more frustrated and angry he gets. Last night he started as soon as I walked in the door asking me again if I'm mad at him. I re-assured him that I'm not mad and asked him what I'm doing to give him that impression. He said "nothing".
We cooked dinner, ate, played with the kids, etc. He said something about missing me again and I said "H, I'm right here. You don't have to miss me. If you want to ML, you're free to tell me at any time. You haven't been feeling good all week, and if you're feeling neglected I'm sorry, but I can't read your mind. I have figured if you truly want to ML, you'll let me know. And, BTW, you can set the mood for me sometimes too and make an effort. I find it frustrating that you expect me to pick up on your signals and expect me to do it, especially when I know you've been sick and am not sure what you really want." He said (kiddingly) "Oh.. you want me to set the mood for you? I can do that"

We put the boys to bed and I settled in to read a book. He asked a few times what the book is about. Then he said "hey, you want me to bake some cookies for you?" I said "sure". He went into the kitchen and couldnt find the recipe. Me and D11 went and helped him mix the dough. Then he left and got on the computer. I baked the cookies. At one point I left a cookie sheet that needed to be washed off and more dough put on it just to see if he'd put the next batch in the oven. He didn't. He walked into the kitchen, got a cookie and left. He came back as I was taking some out of the oven and said "I didnt mean for you to bake the cookies" I said "well, you left them and I didnt want to take over but was afraid they'd burn. And, I left the sheets out for you to put some dough on, but you ate a cookie and left me with it. Then I asked him why he starts something he wants and leave me to finish it. He just said "I don't know". There was one more batch in the oven and I left him to it. Even then, he went away and didnt take them out before asking if I thought they were done and waiting to see if I was going to take them out. He came in and said he was going to clean up the dishes. He ran some water over the baking sheets, grabbed a couple of cookies and left the kitchen but never cleaned up the dishes. I'd have baked him cookies if he had asked and I told him that. But why doesnt he ask? Why the whole process to get me to do what he wants without just asking?

I asked him for a hug because he seemed to be tense. He turned around and kind of held his stomach and said "I've felt bloated all week. Do I look bloated? I need to take something for it. Then he got in the medicine cabinet and was poking around. I went back into the LR and started reading. He came in and said "hey, I thought you wanted a hug" I said "I did, but after I asked you started talking about being bloated and looking for medicine so I thought I'd let you take care of that. He said "the kids were in the room" I said "no, they were downstairs, and does it matter?" WTF?! It's like he denied me a hug on purpose and then came and asked me why I didnt want the hug. Ugh.. games.

He just called from work and it was more of the same. Him expressing his frustration that we havent ML. I told him that I made it clear that I want to ML to him but havent been sure if he's feeling up to it. He said "I've been sick for a week, but I do want to ML.. I've just been tired" I said "OK, but you don't have to explain to me. I havent been mad at you for being sick or pressuring you to ML. Why have you been whining around like I'm the reason we aren't ML right now when obviously you havent been in the mood?" "You aren't being genuine and honest with me H. You're sick, but you want me to feel bad because we havent ML. You want to point out how much you miss me and desire me and say I'm depriving you, yet when given the opportunity, you don't act on it" He said "you're right, but when you were sick, I didnt make you feel bad about it" I said "I'm not trying to make you feel bad about it!" He said "hey, you're starting to get ugly" I said "no, not getting ugly, I just don't understand why you're playing this game with me" He said "Im not playing games! I want to ML, but I've been sick!" I said "you're the only one making an issue of this H. I've been here all week. We had a day off together thursday. You say you want to ML, but when the opportunity presents itself, you don't make a move" He said "I havent felt good! But you havent made a move either. You could come to bed with me" I said "huh?! Why would I pressure you by coming to bed with you when I know you've been tired and feeling bad? I have no idea what you want from me. Why does this have to be my fault? Why are you making me feel bad because we havent ML, when you havent wanted to because you're not up to it right now?" blah blah.. etc. etc. See what I'm dealing with? It makes no sense. I'm supposed to initiate ML with someone who's sick, and if I do, he won't feel like it. But if I don't I'm supposed to feel bad because I'm depriving him.

It seems like a power struggle to me. In the past, H used sex to punish me. I've always been HD and he knows that. If he's ever felt me distancing myself from him, felt unloved or angry he's used sex to get me to pursue him. I can see that cycle in our R over and over. If he needs to feel desired, or wants to send a message that he's not happy, he rejects my advances. Before he does that though, he makes comments about how much he wants to ML.. then when I try to initiate, he puts it off until a future time with an excuse. The general amount of time until he decides he wants to ML is two weeks. In the meantime, I'm doing all I can to be desirable and pet him, show him affection and make him feel wanted and my self esteem plummets. He tells me he desires me and wants to ML, but his actions show that he doesn't. When I ask he says I'm being crazy or selfish because A or B is really the reason we aren't ML and I should know that! Well... if I'm not pursuing, I think I must take that weapon away because he's getting very frustrated that I'm not pursuing him for sex right now. I KNOW any attempts this week would have been met with rejection. And really, I haven't been in the mood to play the game because I see the cycle and it's wrong to continue it. If I say it's OK that we're not ML right now, he gets needy and clingy and steps up his efforts to lure me into the cycle. Like last night. He said "Oh.. you want me to set the mood for you? I can do that!".. but then we had two hours of time alone and he didnt make an effort. But, before he went to bed, he hugged me and told me how much he misses me and he's sorry I've been mad and we havent been ML. WTF! I'm not mad.. not mad except that I've been accused of being mad and accused of depriving him, and accused of being at fault because we havent ML because he's tired and has had a raging headache!

I swear.. if I didnt know better.. I'm married to a woman. I've kept up with the games for years and been an active participant, but I don't have the energy for it. I don't have the desire to even figure out why we've played this game. I know that H is expecting after our phone call this morning, that I'll make an effort to resolve the ML problem this evening. It's my part of this cycle. When it gets to this point and is so frustrating and emotionally charged (except this time, I'm not feeling very emotional about it), I find a way to fix it because I'm tired of arguing, he gives in, we ML and he makes a comment about how we shouldnt wait so long, or I should ML to him more often. It's past time for me to get needy, clingy and whiney because he doesn't want ME, but I don't feel that way. I figure we'll agree to ML because we both want it, or it won't happen.

So, I'm stuck right now. If I continue to not initiate ML, he'll continue to tell me he misses me and I'm depriving him. If I give in and initiate, he may or may not be willing and if he is, we'll end up in a convo about how it was my fault we waited so long. And eventually, I'll get mad and say "why is it we only ML twice a month?" He'll get angry and the cycle will start over.

It's funny. I hate it that the bomb dropped, but it removed us from the cycles we created for years. H is easing us back into those "comfortable" cycles. But, I've been out of them long enough that I can stand back and see them for what they are. And, seeing them, I don't want to play that part anymore. H is giving little effort to communicating right now or changing the dynamics of our R. He's made a few false starts for a week or two, but when he pulls me closer, he starts being passively controlling like he has in the past. Like he's trying to reel me in close enough that I'll be comfortable and go back to all the games we used to play so that he can be comfortable again.

Not gonna happen this time! I'm still centered today. I love him, but I can't allow myself to be a part of the destructive cycles any longer. There are so many of them. Like with the cookies.. sounds silly I know, but it's a pattern. He starts something, I jump in and do the work to finish it and make it right. When I don't rise to the occasion, he gives up. Sheila will fix it. Maybe he's an acts of service guy? Don't know, but I do know that I'm no puppet and I'm going to give from my heart what I want to give from now on unless he's willing to tell me what he needs in a way that's not passively controlling or manipulating. The bad part is, I know he sees this very negatively and is likely to withdraw and get angry. If I'm not there fixing everything, he thinks I'm mad at him.

Right now he's wanting to know if my Mom bought a new car. He called a friend to check and see if she's getting a good deal. We believe she is, but may be getting screwed on the financing. I gave her the info and told here that if she needs anything else, to let us know. We can buy the car cheaper here and bring it to her, but it's her choice. He kept on and on about did I tell her that Paul will make her a good deal? I said "yes, but it's her decision and I don't really feel like a trip to OH to deliver a car unless she needs us to." He kept asking me to call her last night. I said "she said she'd call and tell me if she has a new car and I'm busy and dont want to be on the phone for an hour" He kept dialing her. I said "dont call her, talk to her for a minute, then hand me the phone, OK? I really want to finish what I'm doing first" He thought it was funny. I didnt find it funny, but didnt say anything more. He tried to call until the time he went to bed. He does that all the time to me.. calls her, talks for a sec and hands me the phone. He gets what he wants and leave me holding the bag.

What do I do? Refuse to react to his passive control, yet be loving and giving in other ways? I've been trying to do that, but maybe I'm not acting as if enough? If it wasnt frustrating, it would be humorous. Is there really any hope in breaking this cycle. If it was normal give and take, I wouldnt mind. But it isnt that. Most of the things he gets me to do passively, I'd do if he asked or just do it anyway, but the elaborate game is so clear to me and disturbing. Why do we play these games. If I stop, will H stop?

I just got off the phone with my Mom. Shared with her the frustrations of the last week and we discussed it. She's shared recently that she had the sitch in her R with my father. She was HD and he was LD and it led to problems in their R. She felt unloved and wanted and he felt like he wasn't able to be a man and satisfy her. She also felt like he used sex to control her. He'd get angry (not sure if it was because he was mad at himself), and they wouldnt ML for weeks until she'd kissed his butt enough that he'd give her what she needed. I saw that cycle and hated it. I remember it vividly. I don't think I knew sex was part of the cycle, but maybe on some level I did. I remember how she would baby him, wait on him hand and foot, plan evenings out for them and build up his ego. I can remember how beautiful she looked before going out on a Sat night. She'd go to the beauty shop and get her hair and nails done and spend all afternoon primping. She'd shower him with affection and compliment him.. then for days after they would be happy again.. until the air in our house started getting tense. Dad would get moody and withdrawn, mom would get p*ssed, and then she'd give in and baby him again. Sound familiar?

She had some insight though that might be useful. She said that my basic assumption that H is using sex to passively control me might be right, but not enough info to solve the problem.

She asked me to consider it a different way and try to really see my part in the cycle and stop it. Not just stubbornly refuse to give in, but nip it in the bud so to speak. She said that maybe H is anticipating that I'm upset that we haven't ML and since he knows I'm HD, he's thinking I'm bottling up my frustration and he's going to have to deal with me confronting him on the fact that we're not ML regularly or as often as I like. And, he knows that I feel undesirable when he's not in the mood. She asked if I feel that way. And I said "not really.. I just figure he's been tired and doesn't feel well" She said "well, in the past, even if that was the case, you might not have been that understanding with him" So, he might be trying to tell you that he wants you, but just isn't feeling well. Maybe he's saying that he's changed too.. he desires you.. knows it looks like he doesn't, but in this case, it's just a matter of physically being up to it right now. In the meantime, he still wants and needs to feel like you desire him and wants you to show it even though it doesnt end in ML. Maybe he sees you not pursuing as you sulking, losing interest in him instead of seeing it as patience.

She might be right. Might not be right. Maybe H needs me to smother him with affection, but feels like I'll only do it if I'm pursuing him for sex. I see laying that affection on him as putting him on the spot when he doesnt feel well. I see it as pursuing him, but he might see it differently. Maybe he just needs me to say what he has said. I want to ML, but I realize you're not feeling well and it's OK. Maybe if I reassure him of my desire, without pointing out that he's saying one thing, but acting another way, the outcome will be more positive. We both feel wanted and needed, but H doesnt feel guilty, and I don't feel like he's trying to control me by withholding sex.

Anybody have any insight into this kind of thing? It didnt occur to me that H might be trying to assure me of his affections because we haven't been ML. I see it as him telling me he desires me, but his actions say something else. He sees my patience as me withdrawing and sulking because he isnt meeting my needs. And I resent him insinuating that I'm mad at him when I'm really trying to be patient and understanding instead of assuming the reason we're not making love is because he lacks desire.

So maybe I started to handle it positively by telling him I'm here if he wants to ML and willing, but then pointing out that he's not acting like he wants to is adding guilt, so he reassures me again and tries to act like I'm denying him so that I can't say that he's the one who doesn't want to ML and then get upset and blame him in the future.

Help! I just want to not be doing this. Why does it have to be so hard? Why can't he just say he's not feeling well, I say OK, and when he feels better, we ML like we both want to and in the meantime, have a normal life without all the weird convos about who wants who.. who's fault it is that we're not ML right now, etc. It's WAY too complicated and takes too much energy!!! Crap.. it also ruins the mood and when we finally do ML, we'll both be nervous and tense.

What do I do? Act like we haven't had the convos, but be loving towards him? Give him a nice back rub and love on him, and tell him that I'm sorry he has been feeling bad the last week, but he'll be back to his old self soon and I can't wait to ML to him when he is? What is the simplest solution to stop the cycle and both of us come out of it feeling good about our R, loved and desired?

I know I'm going to have to DB my butt off this afternoon and act as if, or we'll get into the same sitch as yesterday.

Oh, yeah, and I forgot to add. It's not about placing blame or finding fault. It's about coming up with a mutually beneficial solution. Don't get caught up in the blame game.

Thank you USSwede. We do need to come up with solutions that are mutually beneficial. We don't trust each other much at this point and it is SO hard. We've both changed but often fail to recognize the changes in each other. And, I definately fight the blame game, and quite often lose the battle... so, it's easy to see how H would try to cover his tracks to not deal with the blame. Then I get upset because I havent been mad or blaming and he fails to see it and is acting as if I AM mad or upset. It's reasonable. We haven't ML much in the last couple of months and in the past, I'd have been either vocal about it, or smoldering on the inside.

He's was home for a few mins, but has went out for awhile. No mention of the convos or anything.. wheww. If he brings it up again, I'm going to thank him for reassuring me of his desire and reassure him that I haven't been upset and understand he's been sick. If he doesn't, I'm just gonna act as if and be happy and affectionate as usual.. AS IF we've been making love the whole while and are close as can be! And, since he's clearly withdrawn in response to the last couple of days (no hugs or kisses when he came in from work ), I'll give him a big hug when he gets back and tell him I love him.

H responds so positively to the as if technique. I wish I wouldnt forget that so easily and start trying to figure out what to do when we hit a bump in the road! I don't know why I didnt see that he's been trying to reassure me that he wants me and trying to escape blame for something I'd have been upset about in the past. I guess I figure if I know I havent been upset, he should see that too! On my end it's been like dealing with a huge contradiction. Here's a man who says he wants to ML, yet isnt initiating it, says he feels too under the weather to ML, yet is accusing me of being the reason we aren't!

Thank God for the people on this BB who can help sort out the tangled web we've weaved!

Becca,
Men are just as sensitive, if not more than women, about certain feelings and actions. Most of the men I've talked with are extremely sensitive when it comes to any sexual dysfunction. Just like women, men can have problems engaging if there is an "elephant" of emotions in the room.

I've found that it's the almost subconcious things that work the best. The gentle touch on the elbow, the gentle smile. Direct eye contact. Flirting. You know, the direct eye contact and then looking away with a smile. The swish of the hair. Small signals that reach the lizard brain of most men but aren't overtly sexual in nature.

It's above me to suggest what works best for you, but these are the things that most of the men I've spoken with mention when they talk about the women they are attracted to.

Sorry for the marathon answer.

By the way, did I mention that my wife's a redhead?

Speaking of redheads. I picked up a little nugget the other day. Did you know that redheads usually require more anesthetic than most people? Seems that they're more sensitive to physical pain than most people. Could this be the cause of the "grouchy redhead" stereotype? Hmmm, makes you wonder.