Quote: in the same way that other things might be tests.
Oh NO you dont. There will be no suggesting ulterior motives to us men. We are too emotionally underdeveloped and mentally simple to come up with anything so profound as testing women.
Man hungry, want eat. Man horny, want nookie. Man work hard all day, want sit on couch, hand in pants.
edited to add
Anything wrong with asayint "you might miss me more than the problems with the house and inventory should something cause me not to come back?" (Open discussion type of thing)
Yes there is something wrong with it. Dont do it. First, its not assured, confidant, its questioning. At worst it could be female filtered to supplicating, looking for validation that you will be missed and are needed.
Second, open discussion, logical conversation usually does not satisfy a woman emotionally. Your wanting something to be-- the way you believe it should.
I didn't mean to suggest that any of these things are set up by either party as tests. It's just that they often turn out to have been tests after the fact.
That's also not to say that people don't sometimes create situations AS tests.
My point was that the ordinary bumps and ridges of everyday life naturally create events that give each partner the challenge and opportunity to react graciously and compassionately like a grownup or withdraw in a pout like a cranky toddler.
Quote: Anything wrong with asayint "you might miss me more than the problems with the house and inventory should something cause me not to come back?" (Open discussion type of thing)....Yes there is something wrong with it. Dont do it. First, its not assured, confidant, its questioning.
Situation: Company gone so I moved my things out of her room to my room. BB asked why. I said I was protecting myself from more rejection and little physical affection while being in the same room. That it is easier not to ask any more than get turned down 99% of the time.
I brought up the question before you guys posted. I did it as a follow up to one of BB statements at the time and tried to sneak it in under her radar like Lil suggested. BB did say missing me would be a bigger problem for her than my left behind inventory and cars.
She said she does love me but my things just frustrate her so much she can't show the love. She said I am doing the wrong things by spending time reading books, reading relationship articles, and posting on the interner. It was kind of like a ILU but these things cause me to be angry/distant.
I said i tried to love her but was rejected so often, there is little if any love in me for her now. I said I was not trying to be mean or spiteful, just trying to protect myself.
I listed the things I did for her but BB said they were things I needed to do anyway and then she listed the things she still needs. I said that is just it. I don't get credit for what I do and you bring up what you still want me to do for you. From MPOV, doing the right things to make you happy is going to be very difficult, and the way you list the right things, I got them done in the wrong order. (other things said but they follow in a similar path. All trying to make my point that me doing is not going to get me very close to what I want, there will still be reasons ((medical-emotional-timing) she can't do them.)
Because I said, I ran out of love for her and it was not my intention to be mean, I asked if she needed anything. She said a hug and to hold her while she tried to sleep. I got in bed with her and held her and she kissed me. BB later offered sex but I was so drained/hurt/frustrated I declined. End saturday evening.
Sunday we went out with friends and got home about 8PM. I fell asleep on the sofa around 9 and BB went to bed around 10. I joined her an hour later but that did not work out so I went to my room. I was keeping her awake by turning over in bed several times (my back went out a little and I was trying to get comfortable), the dogs were cat chasing, and BB had the radio on.
This AM things are "polite company" like.
Quote: "Mary Lou, clean your room." ... she'll just keep throwing out these little mini-grenades that explode in your path, distracting you from the point you are trying to make.
Lil, this description is so good. You must have been a fly on the wall at one time in a past life, or do they call it experience / BTDT?
Quote: When she tried to take the conversation off in another distracting direction, you acknowledged her and then repeated the main idea you were trying to get across in simple terms. I'm just asking you to stick with that, but now to minimize the repeating. Just make the statement once or twice and don't get into a "discussion."
Lil, I think I made my point. I steered clear or avoided trying to offer fixes to BB problems and stayed on as few points as possible. Mainly I was drained and did not want to continue on like this.
Quote: . Another test might be how do you react if my car breaks down and I have to call you to come and get me?
First time OK but the second time would be something like "you better........."
RE Blackfoot, really good and I agree I don't devise games. Real life is difficult enough.
Quote: Man hungry, want eat. Man horny, want nookie. Man work hard all day, want sit on couch, hand in pants.
BF, did you hear men read books now. Yes, a little up grade to the male species. I saw it on a GEICO auto insurance commercial.
Quote: First, its not assured, confidant, its questioning. At worst it could be female filtered to supplicating, looking for validation that you will be missed and are needed.
I see your point BF. I have the bigest problem imagining what it sounded like going through the "female filter" and more importantly "BB's filter"
Maybe my saving grace was to get her to admit my value to her and get away from the "things are a problem" statements.
Another part of the question was, Why does she have to borrow trouble? Why am I going to die in a firey expressway crash 10 miles from my sisters house? I am a careful type person, why assume the worst.
Was she afraid I was hooking up with my 6 grade crush? After all, BB is the one that said "She did not have to worry about me leaving her, I am too cheap, un kempt, etc, that no one would want me". Hurt at the time but now it's laughable. And there was the couple of times I went to lunch with a mechanic I worked next to back in 1985. He moved back to town and now he and I were gay lovers?
The drama all fits in some where but it changes so I try to understand what I can, What is my part. What is her part. What is impulse. What is venting. What is not worth worring about.
Re Lil
Quote: My point was that the ordinary bumps and ridges of everyday life naturally create events that give each partner the challenge and opportunity to react graciously and compassionately like a grownup or withdraw in a pout like a cranky toddler.
Good attitude to have Lil. I think I had something like this in mind when I titled my thread, filter out the garbage and do the right thing.
Quote: You're such a good man, Lou. I think that if you did wind up on your own, you would have to beat women off with a stick.
Thanks for the compliment Lil. IRL, no OW right now but it might feel good if I had someone fight over me or just some good attention . It sure would be different.
At one time, I was wondering what part of my MO would be causing some of our R problems so I found a web site that supposedly matched personality compatability traits. They said I was matched perfectly with 5% of their female testers and another 30+% were potential matches. The test on the site said I needed to stay away from big spenders, eye candy seekers, and women that had to make an impression on the people she interacts with. I like tests but need to be able to follow up on some of them to see how I can get closer to the correct answers.
Quote: She said she does love me but my things just frustrate her so much she can't show the love. She said I am doing the wrong things by spending time reading books, reading relationship articles, and posting on the interner.
Lou, This is where you need to focus your energies. Any and all free time need to be devoted to getting rid of the excess inventory.
It is completely unfair and unacceptable to say that BB needs to stretch herself out of her comfort zone (ie, have more sex) but you are allowed to stall and dilly dally on the inventory. Even if you have to take a loss on some of the stuff, I think you should do it. It would be a huge act of goodwill and filling her love tank.
She is giving you a map to her heart and you are saying, Yeah but I can get good money for this stuff....
Which might be true, but time's a wastin. I see BB making tiny little baby steps in your direction and I see you doing LOTS of stuff for her, but not the things she says would fill her tank, kwim?
I know how hard it is to fill your spouses tank when it's diametrically opposed to your nature, but that's life, eh? H likes spiritual discussions and I have had to develop a knack for having them. Oh Lou, I used to suck at it sooooo badly. I would start fights and purposely pick the opposite viewpoint of his and then tear into him with my verbal skills. Devil's advocate to the extreme, with the emphasis on "devil", lol.
Anyway, I think there's a lot of good going on in your house...she's making steps towards you but she's flat out telling you that her resentment over the inventory is preventing a lot of forward growth. Imo, that's where you need to focus. And fast.
Good luck and pay no mind to her worrywarting. Enjoy yourself; you've earned it!
Quote: Any and all free time need to be devoted to getting rid of the excess inventory.
I can do some of this with no goal/pay off in mind but yes it is opposed to everything I ever worked for. I sold a printer for $400, 2 weeks age that I might have gotten $150 for on eBay. I have another printer I will try to sell for $200 that sells for $75 on eBay. The big difference in prices, is I recondition the printers and warranty them.
Quote: It is completely unfair and unacceptable to say that BB needs to stretch herself out of her comfort zone (ie, have more sex) but you are allowed to stall and dilly dally on the inventory.
What about the other things I do for her? They seem to not count for much. And more sex? Some how I think there would be a back door/way out of this too.
I am not discounting what you say as I thought out your plan many times and wondered if it would work. How is this?
Lou retires now or soon. gets rid of the inventory, fixes up the house, installs a home gym in the basement next to the hot tub and B does not have to cook much anymore. OG has lots of sex. untill next medical situation a month or two later indicates sex is bad for someone.
Same situation but no differences in physical touch/sex. House fixed up, junk all gone, house ready to sell, another reason for little sex, do a split, OG travels around for a while, finds things he likes. BB buys her condo, gets more dogs, asks OG to come over to fix something, she is lonely, OG says he has a TV dinner with his name on it, can't come over, meeting friends in 1 hour. OR, BB finds a boyfriend, they spend her money, he splits when she is broke......
Just thinking out loud HP.
She is the one who retired early, did not stick to our agreement about her retiring early, just quit 6 months ahead of the agreeded early time, which was almost 4 years ahead of the normal time. Guess I have to get that old retirement plan thinking out of my head.
Quote: I used to suck at it sooooo badly. I would start fights and purposely pick the opposite viewpoint of his and then tear into him with my verbal skills.
Sounds like what is going on here HP, not only with talks but with things I am doing. Are women "sistas"???? BB's Devil's advocate is telling me "Yes that is nice but you should have done Y instead."
Quote: she's flat out telling you that her resentment over the inventory is preventing a lot of forward growth.
But can I trust what she says??? She seems to back out of some things.
BB did admit to doing the opposite of what people want. It is an attitude she said she gets. The more someone wants something and pushes for it, the more she is going to resist. It's like "chase me but I don't want to be caught" or Mrs. hairdog giving in to sex only after hairdog quits asking, needing or wanting sex.
Underdog said she threw out mini-bombs in her M and was an angry person because she felt ignored. Maybe BF has something about men being simple and women complicated. Again are women "sistas"?
HP, I see value in what you say but I don't think BB will change her desire patterns. She told me one time she had the feeling (sexual) for a long time, got frustrated after her Hysterectomy and my back surgery, and does not want to ever be frustrated that way again. She said she never wants to have feelings for a man that cause her to be frustrated again so she does attempt to get anything sexual out of intercourse or petting.
She does realise men/me need some sexual outlet but wished my needs would disapear too. It's like why mess up something fairly good with all of that sex stuff. It is messy, gives women UTI's, and guys just do nice things for women to get into their pants. She said why can't I be like most men my age and have ED problems. I over stated the points to let you see BB's one extreem of feelings.
Another thought I had, I pretended I was single and a condition to date BB was that I had to have a neat house, was retired, eat out often, go to dog and cat shows with her pets, and BB would be pleasant and loving to me but little sex. We would both spend what we wanted to and if we were ever broke, we could apply for public housing and still live together like good friends.
I gotta disagree with HP on this one. It's not like the inventory is sitting in the middle of the living room floor and they're tripping over it.
Lou, I think getting rid of the inventory is not going to fill BB's love tank IMHO. Simply getting rid of this stuff that you can sell and realize a profit on goes against your value system.
I don't equate it with HP stretching herself to have spiritual convos with her H. A closer parallel might be if HP's hubby insisted that she keep her car cleaned out, a car that only she drives and that he rarely sees the inside of.
It's not that BB wants more quality time with Lou and that the inventory is preventing this. If BB said, "From now on, I want us to spend two evenings a week together, and maybe you can find time to putter with your gadgets at another time so it doesn't interfere with our 'together time,'" that would be a different matter... but I think if it weren't the 'stuff' it would be something else.
I just had another thought... maybe BB is projecting. She UNCONSCIOUSLY condemns herself for accumulating so much junk, so she sees in Lou the fault she CANNOT see in herself... and condemns HIM for it.
Anyway... IMHO this ISN'T about the stuff... Frankly, I don't know what WOULD fill BB's love tank...
Quote: It's not like the inventory is sitting in the middle of the living room floor
None in her or our space upstairs.
Quote: "From now on, I want us to spend two evenings a week together, and maybe you can find time to putter with your gadgets at another time so it doesn't interfere with our 'together time,'" that would be a different matter...
I would buy into that idea, but nothing like it was offered. Just, I can't be sexual with all of XYZ going on in her life or XYZ in the house or women my are are not built for sex, or I lost those desires back when.
Quote: but I think if it weren't the 'stuff' it would be something else.
It has been other things, events, people so that is why I don't count on the things being gone, will solve the problems.
BB has a female friend that worked at the same place for almost 40 years. Her job was in the food department of a large company but she did not cook. She got fed up with working, quit at around 57 years of age, no pension but had IRA's, very rarely cooks and tells people she does not cook, has a very nice house, not even an old news paper laying around, only a cat box and an exercise bike in the basement, perfectly clean car and garage. The H is retired and never worries about paying for anything. After all, what are charge cards for, charging! Get the picture Lil. I think BB compares her/our life with this woman's lifestyle and sees we live in a dump or warehouse.
This is why I say I don't think the improvements I make to the house or the things I move out will really solve the whole problem. The differences between our two houses are significant, as are the differences between the people.
I do admit I have way too much stuff and will remove about 50% to 65% of it in the next year. Will it be good enough is the question?
Quote: Frankly, I don't know what WOULD fill BB's love tank...
I think if I went 80% of the way to match her friends house, BB would be happy and maybe up sex to 2X a month and not complain too much. Add to that, her friends house with out the friend's H. He kind of rules the roost and BB thinks her friend should have more say in the M.
I need to lighten the load, so will continue to gradually move things out. They need to go so HP is right in a way. but getting what I want???, that is the 64,000 dollar question.
About me and BB BB seems to pay more attention to things I want to do and is being a little more attentive. I was concerned about ((I said "I tried to love her but was rejected so often, there is little if any love in me for her now." I said I was not trying to be mean or spiteful, just trying to protect myself." from saturday evening. Maybe it did some good and not too much harm. Sure is a lot different than some posts i read where women say their H just left and they had no idea he was unhappy. Slightly different than ILUBINILWY speech other posters write about but very similar.
Additional thoughts to ponder. Do some guys love someone but they don't know it or can't say it? BB once said I was one of those guys.
Lou, ___________________________________________________________ I think if I went 80% of the way to match her friends house, BB would be happy and maybe up sex to 2X a month and not complain too much. Add to that, her friends house with out the friend's H. He kind of rules the roost and BB thinks her friend should have more say in the M. ___________________________________________________________
I'll bet BB has convinced herself of this. I'll bet she thinks that if she just kept close enough up with the Joneses that she would be happer, have more desire etc... I say, BS. I'm worried that you are starting to believe that maybe this stuff would actually impact her in this way.
Caveat: If you live in squalor and BB's friends have access to nicer things, don't just srape by etc... then I would have a different opinion. People who are scraping for the necessities typically don't have a lot of desire, even the more HD of us don't function well under serious financial stress.
So, Lou, assuming that you don't live in squalor and that you adequately fill BB's "love tank" I think that gets you up to baseline "good, postive feelings" not sexual feelings. There is something missing here and I sense that besides the respect issues that we have harped on before I think that BB doesn't understand the sexual side of herself. She seems to see sex as marital currency. So, to her, it is how you get extras. A certain amount of actions toward the love tank is expected. Extras can be bought with some sex. Am I totally off base here? Does it seem like that at all to you? Maybe I'm being harsh here but I keep feeling like BB just isn't in touch with her sexual self so sex has taken on other meanings in her life e.g. chore, marital currency etc...
If this is correct Lou then all the efforts at filling her love tank will result in a more pleasant marriage. What that might buy is BB's willingness to go to therapy not her willingness to get serious about your SL. What do think?
We are too emotionally underdeveloped and mentally simple to come up with anything so profound as testing women.
Thanks for the compliment Lil. IRL, no OW right now but it might feel good if I had someone fight over me or just some good attention 