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I got slightly sarcastic in a conversation with H last night.

What you wrote didn't come across as sarcastic at all to me.

he stops me after I said the part about S5 saying "dead". H says "We don't say 'dead', but anyway, continue"... He said "The more we use the word, the more real it becomes".

Wow, is that interesting or what? Does that point to his having too much of a fear of death in him? We all fear death and try to not think about it, and we all need to accept that it's just as real as life, and will happen. But some people have a real phobia about it. Perhaps this was a manifestation of his.

You know I'm on this "commitmentphobia" idea right now, and what it's leading me to is that the push-pulls that happen in our relationships are many times attributable to one person actively acting on fears, their partner knee-jerking responding to that, and a cycle ensues. So, I'm believing more and more that the issue in our relationships are not the topical problems we see outwardly to address, but the root fears that those outward signs indicate. The outward problem is the use of the word "dead", but the real problem is H's fear that makes him wish to avoid using or hearing that word. I'll betcha if you had said "not alive" in lieu of dead, there would still be voiced an objection of some kind. It's not about the word itself, but about what the word means to him and how he feels about that.

But is it realistic to never use the word 'dead'? What do you guys think?

It's part of the English lexicon, it's part of the human experience. What do you think?

I get so defensive, I'm not sure why

I think it's because, as you wrote: "I took his words as an attack just because he feels differently than I do."

So what you're getting involved in is a "who's right, who's wrong" type of conversation, as you try to reason with his differing viewpoint. He thinks he's right, you think you're right, and you're each in your camp explaining your reasons why.

I would have been much better off just saying "I disagree that 'dead' is a completely off-limits word. Sometimes it has it's place in a sentence as long as the conversation isn't morbid, instating fear or violent". That's how I feel.

"Reasoning" doesn't always work. Basically, you have two camps, and arguing (and again, I'm using the word "arguing" not meaning the "angry quarrel" sense of it, but in the sense of "stating your supposition") for your camp only serves to set things up as a debate, which is how it turned out. As I mentioned above, that's not the real issue.

Heather, yuppers controlled binging...that was HIM...it was amazing towards the end of our R, I could tell if he was going to drink that night by how he acted during the day...there was a pattern.

I wondered a great deal about myself too Heather...there are no answers...and as my first C told me, you can't make sense of insanity and there was insanity regarding him and the drinking...even so more...I do hope that his new R gives him the peace of mind that he seems to be seeking or claims he is...he lost himself...couldn't handle the stresses of life and the depression that sunk in and in hindsight I couldn't help him because I couldnt' understand how he was feeling and dealing with it. Of course that has all changed and I can't change the best...I can only wish him peace of mind.

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". H says "We don't say 'dead', but anyway, continue". That just sort of stopped me 'dead' in my tracks. I said, what exactly is your point in saying that? He said "nothing, continue". I said "He's not allowed to use the word dead at all? Don't you think that's a little unrealistic? I mean what about "Mommy, the flowers we got you are dead" or "That bug is dead"......He said "The more we use the word, the more real it becomes". I said "H, I didn't use the word, S5 did, he knows its a word and he knows what it means". He said "You just said it like 5 times in a row".

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Wow, Heather, this is a huge clue here!
One of the big driving factors behind midlife crisis is - Fear Of Death and Dying. Your H has FEAR with a capital F! He can't even hear the word! He's trying to act as if death doesn't even exist! He must be terrified every day, no?

Not sure how best to help him with this, but man, this might explain a lot.

Ellie

I'm not sure if death is a fear of H's or not. I think it might be, he refuses to talk about where or how we should be buried. I've been open that I want to be cremated and would prefer not to have a funeral unless those *close* to me need one. Anyway, he has shied away from discussions like this in the past. He has also told me that he remembers way back to early childhood having thoughts of not wanting to get old. Getting old seems to be a big deal for him....although I'm here to tell ya, he's got nothing to worry about, he's *the* biggest kid I know, lol

But actually, in this case, I think the 'dead' thing is really linked to H wanting to make sure that our kids have a great childhood and aren't exposed to any realities earlier than they have to be. H has never revealed any particular trauma in his childhood and I know his family very, very well. Nothing has ever been said about H being an unhappy child per se. But the fact is, that he was an unhappy child. In fact, until H had kids, he was an unhappy person. Period. He talks about feeling really lonely as a kid and he talked about not understanding the importance of certain things that other kids seemed to intuitively understand, like the importance of grades. Light bulbs went on for him much later in life than for most kids it seems and apparently he feels that his parents could have guided him more.

So, with that being said, I think it's just SUPER important to H that our kids have a happy childhood. And I've mentioned to H that no matter what we do, our kids are going to look back and have some regrets about their childhood. I used his own childhood as an example. It hurts his Mom when he expresses a memory where he felt hurt or discouraged, etc. because, like any parent, you try to shield your kids from that. But the fact is, it happens. They are their own people with their own feelings and their own perceptions and they are going to interpret our actions in a different way than we intend them sometimes. He acknowledged that was probably true.

What I said in the conversation with H might not have sounded sarcastic written in words, but my voice was pretty sarcastic. When I said it was a pleasure, it would have taken an idiot to not realize that I felt our conversation had been far from a pleasure. So, that's the raw me, just letting my words flow. A backslide because that's what I'm trying to change.

it was amazing towards the end of our R, I could tell if he was going to drink that night by how he acted during the day...there was a pattern.

Definitely. I always knew because he wouldn't eat dinner or would decline an invitation from others or myself to do something that he would normally have accepted (because he wanted to stay home and drink). So much of the non-alcoholic's energy gets wrapped up in the alcoholic...only someone who's been through it can understand I think. The mornings after he drank, I would count the cans so I would know how many he drank. Then he got to the point where he would not put all his cans in the same place. So I would count how many were in the fridge when he started and how many were left in the fridge the next morning and subtract the two. I can't even tell you why it mattered to me, but it did.
And then of course on a 'non-drinking' night, if he accepted a beer from someone, I never knew if it would stop at 5-6 or continue on to the full event. And when we came home from someplace if we had been out drinking, of course everyone else would go to bed, but not H. He'd stay up and continue drinking.
The experience drove me closer to the edge than I will probably ever know. I HATED him. But when I could put it out of my head, I loved him and we would seem normal. But it was always like a secret that I kept. When people would tell me I had a great H or whatever the topic was, I would always think "If only you knew". I did not have a perfect life and I did not have a perfect H and I was not lucky and I was not happy. But to tell anyone that would only have made me feel vulnerable and weak. I'm competitive, I like to feel like I've done my best and achieved my goals. My M was a far cry.

I'm not sure if death is a fear of H's or not.

"I think it might be, he refuses to talk about where or how we should be buried.

he has shied away from discussions like this in the past.

He has also told me that he remembers way back to early childhood having thoughts of not wanting to get old.

Getting old seems to be a big deal for him"


You're not sure if H has a fear of death?

I think the 'dead' thing is really linked to H wanting to make sure that our kids have a great childhood and aren't exposed to any realities earlier than they have to be.

Your child mentioned it. Was he acting nervous or afraid when he mentioned death? They do see things die, pets, plants, older relatives. They are cautioned not to run out in traffic. It is part of their experience, though they go through different stages of understanding it. Why preclude your child from understanding it?

You know what's worse, IMO? When a child is young and say a grandparent dies, and the child asks what happened, and the parents tell the child things like, "God wanted another angel in heaven" or "Grandma's gone away". That paints of picture of God striking people dead for his own selfish purposes (besides being theologically incorrect information to teach) or can install a fear of going on vacations.

Anyway, H's fear of it stops him from allowing his children to have a healthy understanding of it; in a way, he's doing to them what was done to him. He's making "death" a taboo subject, and what they'll learn from that is that death is a thing to be feared, hidden, not spoken about... just like he does.

H has never revealed any particular trauma in his childhood... But the fact is, that he was an unhappy child.

If there was trauma, he may have never spoken of it or has it buried so as not to remember it, but he's acting on something.

And you still don't see how you rationalize things?

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I'm not sure if death is a fear of H's or not.

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Of course it is - a BIG one!
It is NOT normal to think that a 5 year old will be traumatized by just hearing the word dead.
And it wasn't just the issue of your child hearing it - your H was becoming very uncomfortable hearing you use the word with him during the conversation.

I think this is an instance of him projecting his own fear onto the kid.

Ellie

All right Heather, I don't know if I'm going to be able to get this point across the way I intend it, but it's worth a shot.

I wonder if you and the rest of us aren't dealing with the trees and not giving the forest enough attention. When I look at H, these are some of the trees I see:

• He doesn't want anybody to count on him or ask him for help.
• He used to drink way too much, and now has some unusual drinking rituals.
• His reactions to your rather minimal affair have been somewhat bizarre and way out of proportion.
• He has an odd and somewhat disturbing (to me, anyway) fixation with death and aging.
• He runs hot and cold in his feelings and actions toward you.
• He's stated that just being with you for the kids' sake is acceptable to him

Without getting into any of those specific items, can we just stipulate that he is not healthy? Which means that you are not in a relationship with a healthy person?

Very few people are totally mentally and emotionally healthy, of course. If most of the folks on this board were completely squared away, we probably wouldn't have gotten to the point we're at in our R's or we would have avoided them in the first place. But one of the outstanding benefits of DB'ing is how we're encouraged to look at our unhealthy behavior (as well as the underlying beliefs and attitudes) and get them turned around. Of course, the idea in the beginning is that this will help attract our spouses. And over time, most people come to recognize they like themselves better this way and try to stick with their changes and healthier outlooks because it's best for them. You have followed this path yourself. You do a lot of introspection and a lot of analysis of your R's dynamics. You look for ways to improve yourself and how you handle your sitch and you implement the necessary changes. You're getting healthier.

But H isn't. He doesn't think he needs to. He rejects even the idea of seeing a C. But I don't think it could be more obvious that he's not emotionally healthy.

Which brings me to the main point that I'm struggling to put together in my head so you'll understand what I'm trying to say. I think you absolutely need to understand that you can't make Matt healthy. When you make your changes and when you analyze his actions in an attempt to figure out how to bring him around, I think you're kind of chasing your tail. You're getting caught up in his drama and you're spinning your wheels. I think in part, this is what NYS means when he says you're rationalizing. You seem to be looking for a key to unlock Matt from his dysfunction, and you say, "Well, maybe he wouldn't do *that* if I wouldn't do *this*", or "What can I do so he won't do *the other thing* anymore?". You're hoping his behavior is based on something you can control. And in some instances I'm sure it is. Some, but not all. Maybe the bottom line is that to stay in your M, you gotta accept that until he himself does something about it, you're going to have an unhealthy partner. So you've gotta figure out how you can remain healthy and make the R as healthy as possible with little or no help from him.

To keep yourself healthy, I think you have to detach quite a bit. I don't blame you for not wanting a M in which you have to detach from your partner. But that seems to be what your sitch calls for, otherwise you're going to continually get spun into his unhealthy vortex. And I fear that will keep you questioning yourself and your value and possibly eroding your self esteem. Don't let that happen. If your M survives it will be because *you* were strong and healthy enough to carry it thru this turbulence. Let his accusations of irrationality and his other fault finding hit your skin and drop to the ground before it gets in your head. He's wrong about those things and it's obvious. So don't buy it.

If you can get to the point where you can be calm and centered amidst his stormy words and behavior, then I think you have a chance. At the least you'll be able to save yourself. Just don't let an unhealthy partner wear you out. Detach and let his craziness wear on him and not on you.

BTW, VJ has an interesting post in Jennbird's thread on Newcomers about great dads. Might be worth a look.

Wow, there's a lot of stuff here that I'd like to respond to.

And you still don't see how you rationalize things?

First, NY, your opinion that I rationalize. At first, I just ignored the statement because I don't agree and didn't really want to get into a discussion about it. But since you've mentioned it again, I'd like to tell you how I'm interpreting your words and see if the way I hear it is the way you meant to say it. The way you used the term, seemed to me to refer to an action taken on my behalf that is different than what others on this board are doing here, and something that I need to work on. To me, it seemed pejorative so [honestly] I looked it up in the dictionary. This is what it said: "...to bring into accord with reason or cause something to seem reasonable, as: to attribute (one's actions) to rational and creditable motives without analysis of true and esp. unconscious motives..."
The word rationalize and this definition made me recall H's accusations that I am irrational, to be excused. You might recall how I felt on previous posts to be called that. In my opinion, I'm trying to make sense of the interactions between H and I and the things that have happened in our R the same way many others do. I have trouble making statements as though they are fact, particularly when they are not statements about myself. For example, does H have a fear? It appears he does, but hell, maybe he just doesn't want to talk about it. Is it a fear? Sure, maybe, call it what you want. The way I see it, it doesn't matter if it is a fear or not per se. What matters is that he doesn't like to discuss it and is projecting that onto our son. Is that rationalizing?

It is NOT normal to think that a 5 year old will be traumatized by just hearing the word dead.
And it wasn't just the issue of your child hearing it - your H was becoming very uncomfortable hearing you use the word with him during the conversation.

H didn't say that I was 'traumatizing' S5. He said the more we use the word, the more real it becomes. Hence his irritation that I was repeatedly using the word in front of S5 during our conversation (which I wasn't, S5 was in another room at the time). My interpretation of how he felt was that S5 is too young to be fully exposed to death and therefore would like to limit his exposure to the word.

Anyway, H's fear of it stops him from allowing his children to have a healthy understanding of it; in a way, he's doing to them what was done to him. He's making "death" a taboo subject, and what they'll learn from that is that death is a thing to be feared, hidden, not spoken about... just like he does.

I agree. I don't know when the right time is to expose a child to the concept of death. In the absence of a death in the family at which time children are normally exposed ready or not, I suppose there is no 'right time' and you have to let your child guide you. The key here, is that S5 brought it up, not me. That means he is starting to relate to what the word means and he will be asking questions to which he deserves objective answers. I will be there to provide them. H can avoid if he so chooses.

I think this is an instance of him projecting his own fear onto the kid.

I agree.

You seem to be looking for a key to unlock Matt from his dysfunction, and you say, "Well, maybe he wouldn't do *that* if I wouldn't do *this*", or "What can I do so he won't do *the other thing* anymore?".

I guess I thought this was what I was supposed to do? Look at my own behavior to see how it is contributing to the madness? Change him by changing myself. Am I taking this too literally?!

I remember a post back in the beginning of my journey where H and I got into a huge fight over him having the TV up too loud and it escalated all the way to him putting his hands around my throat. Someone posted to that and said "I can see a lot of things that *you* could have done differently". That person was right. Maybe I do take this too literally though, I don't know. It sure would be nice to just BE without having to analyze my every move. My problem to date though is that I analyze my moves after the fact instead of thinking things through before I act.

You're hoping his behavior is based on something you can control.

I think you're right. I'm trying to control his behavior. But isn't that part of the premise of what we're doing here? Monitoring "results"....what are those "results" supposed to be? Changes in the other person's behavior, right?

To keep yourself healthy, I think you have to detach quite a bit.

I wish it wasn't the case, I want to be close. But to be able to be calm and centered, I do need to be detached. I'm getting a little more comfortable with it. These things take time, I have to keep reminding myself of that. I'm like a kid. I want to be important and I want to be loved and I want it now. Oh yeah, and these things should come to me regardless of my own behavior!! How's that for a motto?

Thank you all for your thoughts. I know I missed some things I wanted to respond to and I will probably post again later.

I guess I thought this was what I was supposed to do? Look at my own behavior to see how it is contributing to the madness? Change him by changing myself. Am I taking this too literally?!

I think you're right. I'm trying to control his behavior. But isn't that part of the premise of what we're doing here? Monitoring "results"....what are those "results" supposed to be? Changes in the other person's behavior, right?

Ah, good. A chance to try and clarify what I'm talking about.

This may be over-simplistic, but I think the heart of what I'm trying to say is that maybe if you change your behavior you can avoid a repeat of him putting his hands around your throat. But you can't change him from being a person who would put his hands around your throat under certain conditions (which, except in the case of self-defense, those conditions can NEVER justify what he did). He's going to have to see a need to change and take action to change himself. I think part of the DB idea is that if you become this magnetic person who makes everybody tingle by just being around you, then your spouse will see that and do whatever it takes to keep you in their life. That would seem an entirely rational belief if your spouse is healthy. But if your spouse isn't healthy, then all bets are off.

I was thinking about this yesterday...you're in a lot different position from most of us because your marriage isn't threatened. You're not willing to leave and he's not willing to leave. So you're not trying to save your M. You're trying to figure out how to optimize your M and your family life. So by all means you should work on making yourself as healthy and happy as possible. And you should try different things and see how they affect H. Just don't expect that he's going to react to you like a healthy person would. That's what I mean by chasing your tail. Don't expect him to respond the way you'd like to your changes, and above all don't blame yourself when he doesn't. At this point, your R is not hurting because of you. I think your role now is to make your situation the best it can be for yourself and your kids. Let H own his problems; you worry about the rest of you.

I've got a suggestion for you to consider. It seems to me that it's high time to reestablish yourself in your R. Your mini-A is water way under the bridge by now. Seriously...let go of it. Don't take any more bullets for it. And start by fixing your sleeping arrangements.

If you want to sleep in the marital bed, then from now on that's where you should sleep. If he's going to come in and turn on the light on you, then learn to sleep with the light on. If he makes it even more miserable for you to sleep there, to the point there's no way you can stand it, or if you don't really care about sleeping there, then move all your stuff into the other bedroom and sleep there all the time. Including when he's gone. And I mean ALL your stuff. Don't leave anything. That'll just be his bedroom from now on. Let him figure out if that's the way he wants to live. And if it is, then fine. Give up the idea that you can fix this yourself and just worry about making yourself as happy as possible within the limits of your sitch.

If he's happy having just a live-in, co-parenting R with you then good for him. But even that R requires more from him than he's giving right now. He's gotta meet you some part of the way (1%? 10%? 25%? 50 (gasp!) %?).

The bottom line of what I'm trying to say is do whatever you need to make yourself happy and healthy and don't let his crap get in your brain.

That's all.