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So, if I'm the pursuer in my R and I take steps to change my behavior, do you suppose the changes have to be life-long changes? Gosh in that case, it would be like changing my personality, a piece of who I am....
Like you mentioned in your post, when I distance myself, H responds well (as long as the distance is still amicable and very friendly...if I stop making friendly efforts, he just pours himself into the kids and ignores me) and I suppose at that point, I have reverted back to my pursuer behavior. But unless H enjoys being the pursuer, eventually a balance has to be found where it is give and take at the same time. That has been a frustrating aspect of my R with H....that one of us pursues at a time instead of both giving at the same time.
On the one hand, you don't want to reinstate the pursuing behavior, but on the other hand, you want to reward the other person's pursuing behavior. How do you manage that, lol?!

I haven't been posting a whole lot, I think probably because H is gone still and when he's gone, my R with him isn't in front of me all the time. So, I can focus on other aspects of my life. My job has suffered a lot in the past year, not in a way that my boss has noticed, but in the way that I know I can give more. My M problems have just consumed me for the last year and everything else has went to the back burner. When H is gone, it allows me to focus on some other issues. Lately, my performance at work has stepped up and I feel a renewed commitment to my work, which feels good.

Gosh in that case, it would be like changing my personality, a piece of who I am....


Ditto... I enjoying being a person who is easy and happy demonstrating love. If the person I am with finds it too much, then am I with the wrong person? Is there any way to enjoy this and still not pursue?

Gosh in that case, it would be like changing my personality, a piece of who I am....

Isn't that kind of what DB'ing is all about? Making behavioral mods in ourselves. Looking at ourselves and purging the "bad habits". Isn't that why people are encouraged to "DB for life"? I think that these behavioral mods are not aimed at changing the entire you, but rather pieces of you.

On the KLA CD's MWD talks about smokers who instantly light up after a good meal or love making session. It's little habits like these that we are called to notice and act on.

HG, you kind of stated a question that I have been thinking about. First, just how do I start a relationship w/o the op feeling pursued? What is the difference b/w enjoying the attention and feeling pursued? And secondly, once in a relationship, how does one keep it healthy by balancing spending "quality time" or "demonstrating love" and pursuit from the op's perspective?

Exactly Anna. Can we still be loving without pursuing? I suppose we could if our love was demonstrated more as a reaction/reward for those behaviors we find desirable in our partners as opposed to repeatedly instigating random closeness....hmm. What do you think?

I gave some advice on another thread that I think I need to take as well. I need to make a list of what I feel good about in my R and another list of what I don't feel so good about. Then I will go through the same list and think of behaviors that I can try to influence more of the good on my list and less of the bad on my list. I will work on this and post it later. I'm just telling you so that you don't let me off the hook!! Now that I've said it 'out loud', I have to do it, lol.

So, if I'm the pursuer in my R and I take steps to change my behavior, do you suppose the changes have to be life-long changes? Gosh in that case, it would be like changing my personality, a piece of who I am

Are you looking for an excuse not to change things? Who you were 20 years ago is a bit different than who you are today, who you'll be 20 years from now could be different than who you are today. Unless you're a robot. Isn't it healthy to grow and mature and develop as a person? Isn't DBing about changing behaviors?

So, your argument is, for example, if it's part of my personality to be an over-eater, I shouldn't change my behavior because it would need to be long term and it goes against who I am right now. Sorry, I don't buy it.

On the one hand, you don't want to reinstate the pursuing behavior, but on the other hand, you want to reward the other person's pursuing behavior. How do you manage that, lol?!

I think the concept is not about rewarding the partner's pursuing behavior. It's about creating a climate where the distancing partner hopefully realizes why they distance themselves and works on their issues.

The distancing partner always has the upper hand and control of the relationship. They're the ones that set the boundaries of what the relationship will be, The pursuing partner responds to that by attempting to have the distancer draw closer, but that just propels the distancer further. It's a never ending struggle, and not very fulfilling and eventually the pursuer seeks comfort elsewhere and immerses themselves with: their work, their kids, an affair. Any of this sound familiar to you?

You rationalize what you do, Heather. You have to break through those rationalizations so as to not cling onto your current pattern. YOU become the distancer, and things may change for you.

Are you looking for an excuse not to change things?

I don't think so.

So, your argument is, for example, if it's part of my personality to be an over-eater, I shouldn't change my behavior because it would need to be long term and it goes against who I am right now. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Geez, I wouldn't say I was 'arguing' anything. Just making an observation about a topic that was weightier than I had first given it credit for. I am certainly not saying that a behavior with negative consequences shouldn't be changed. I have already said that I've noticed a difference in H's behavior when I distance vs pursue, so that must mean that I am trying out new behaviors, not looking for an excuse for things to stay the same. My purpose in saying what I did was that, like Anna said, this was always a quality that *I* rather liked about myself. I started with DBing as a way to change things about myself that I didn't like, things I wasn't proud of that contributed to my place in my R with H. I realize it is also about changing things that don't work, whether you like those things about yourself or not. So with that being said, I have tried distance and I can rather say I don't like it and was just expressing my anxiety that it will have to be a life-long change. Bummer.

It's about creating a climate where the distancing partner hopefully realizes why they distance themselves and works on their issues

And how, do you do that?


Any of this sound familiar to you?

Perhaps...it is difficult to tell because the alchoholism muddied the water. Maybe the real reason H used alcohol was b/c he knew it would create distance. Who knows. Right now, the only thing that sounds familiar to me is that I sought comfort somewhere else and that lately, things seem to improve if I employ a bit of distance. That could be because I feel better about myself (guarding my heart a little more closely) or it could be because H truly responds better. I need to observe a bit more closely.

You rationalize what you do, Heather.

Do I? Because, I suppose I could see how someone might think that about me a few threads ago.....I was operating in a heightened state of defensivenes.....but I guess I hoped that I have taken on a bigger piece of responsibility for my situation by now. I will refrain (as much as I can) from being defensive if you can please expand on what you mean here.

Thanks!

So, your argument is...

Geez, I wouldn't say I was 'arguing' anything. Just making an observation

I didn't say you were "arguing", I was putting forth your "argument", as in "supposition", as in "premise", as in "hypothesis", as in...

So with that being said, I have tried distance and I can rather say I don't like it and was just expressing my anxiety that it will have to be a life-long change.

Oh! Well... why didn't you just say so?????????????

It's about creating a climate where the distancing partner hopefully realizes why they distance themselves and works on their issues

And how, do you do that?

Become the distancer, and stay the distancer. Something stirs within Matt, hopefully, he starts to figure out what he really wants. It's the only time he's going to do it, since when he's the distancer he's self-absorbed and doesn't get focused on what's missing.

it is difficult to tell because the alchoholism muddied the water. Maybe the real reason H used alcohol was b/c he knew it would create distance.

That could happen.

You rationalize what you do, Heather.

Do I? Because... I was operating in a heightened state of defensiveness.....

Ha! You just rationalized again! Gotcha!

Heather, not knowing your sitch fully or your H...I can relate however to the Alcoholic part...WAS in my sitch is an alcoholic...his social drinking had increased the month prior to his moving out. He met and moved in with OW who IS an Alcoholic...he said it was to escape the pain and hurt that he didn't want to feel but wanted me to feel because he FELT that I had let him down.

9 days ago, I decided to let him know that he had won...I was hurting...we haven't spoken since and right now I am very happy this way...the first few days it was very tough...but when I think back of all the pain and hurt he has instilled upon me the past 3 mos, this is the first peaceful break I have had. He has chosen to make his bed so to speak with OW and the bottle of Jack...as my therapist said, there is nothing that can be done to change the situation until he either sobers up or OW throws him out on the streets. I pursued...and now I have distanced myself like there is NO TOMORROW...he hasn't tried to reach me...maybe he will maybe he won't...but i know from talking with him that he is hurting...and the booze is just his way of dealing with things. DBC said OW isn't EVEN the issue here...just the enabler.

Read up as much as you can on alcoholism...join AlAnon if you like, it wasn't for me...I decided to have one on ones with a therapist that specialized in families of addicts...but have since ended those sessions...in favor of DBC.

My best to you...you're going to need all the strength you can...I've ridden this rollercoaster and it's filled with nothing but hateful babble, anything that they can do to put THEIR pain back on you, blame you for everything that has gone wrong in their lives. There were nights that I swear to God I wasn't going to make it through...but as everyone told me, he has to hit rock bottom on his own before he sees the light. So you become the lighthouse...you don't keep the light on permanently for him by pursuing him...let him wonder what you are doing, what things you are doing in your life...let him contact you...let him step up to the plate. When you CHOOSE to speak with him, be cordial, loving but distant....and read all that you can on detachment with love for alcholism. I have a great article that I have bookmarked if you like I can share it with you!

I got slightly sarcastic in a conversation with H last night. I was trying to tell him a great story about the kids and something very smart that our 5 year old son said to me. Snakes somehow came up in conversation with my kids at the dinner table and S5 says to me "If you get bit by a snake, you're dead right?" I said "Not necessarily, it depends on the kind of snake it is, not all snakes are even poisonous". He said "A water snake is poisonous right?" I said "yes, a water mocassin is poisonous, but a bite doesn't necessarily mean that you are dead, the bites can be treated, and they don't live in saltwater anyway". S5 says "I know, they live in lakes, rivers and streams". ?? I was soo impressed with his knowledge about where the snakes live. It was as though it came from a textbook!
So anyway, I was excited to tell H about this and he stops me after I said the part about S5 saying "dead". H says "We don't say 'dead', but anyway, continue". That just sort of stopped me 'dead' in my tracks. I said, what exactly is your point in saying that? He said "nothing, continue". I said "He's not allowed to use the word dead at all? Don't you think that's a little unrealistic? I mean what about "Mommy, the flowers we got you are dead" or "That bug is dead"......He said "The more we use the word, the more real it becomes". I said "H, I didn't use the word, S5 did, he knows its a word and he knows what it means". He said "You just said it like 5 times in a row". I said "I'm in D2's bedroom, away from the kids". I just sat in silence for a second and he said "Well, we're back to the van, so I need to say goodnight to D2". I said "Ok Matt, as always, it was a pleasure". And I handed the phone to D2.

On the one hand, I can see his point about the more we use the word, the more real it becomes. But is it realistic to never use the word 'dead'? What do you guys think?

I get so defensive, I'm not sure why. I have got to defuse that reaction somehow, it comes as normal to me as drinking water. I would have been much better off just saying "I disagree that 'dead' is a completely off-limits word. Sometimes it has it's place in a sentence as long as the conversation isn't morbid, instating fear or violent". That's how I feel. I took his words as an attack just because he feels differently than I do. He stated his sentence as a fact though "WE don't use that word". Yes, *I* do, if appropriate, thank you very much.

So to recap on yesterday's discussion, my goal is to be friendly to H but not seek an emotional connection with him. I'm still pretty unsure about where I stand on the physical connection.....can't seem to make up my mind how I feel about it.

HorseLover-
Thanks for stopping by. Alcoholism is a really difficult thing. I found it incredibly difficult because there are not exact parameters for defining what is and is not an alcoholic. And if I couldn't define H as an alcoholic, then I could never come to grips with my feelings on the issue. I mean, if he wasn't an alcoholic, then maybe I was overeacting. Maybe it was *my* problem. Maybe his behavior would be perfectly acceptable to someone else, maybe we're just not meant to be together. If he's not an alcoholic, then he would stop if he loved me, I've told him over and over how it makes me feel and it's clear it causes tremendous problems in our R. I think the alcohol issue is primarily responsible for making me doubt myself and my perception of things. My H was not your typical alcholic by any means. Even my counselors have expressed much interest in his behaviors and the two counselors I saw had never heard of such controlled binge drinking...as though it were a religion.

Anyway, the good news is that he doesn't drink nearly as much as he used to. I never did make it to AlAnon. I looked it up several times on the internet and got schedules of nearby meetings even. I would pull out the schedule, look at it, wonder to myself 'But where am I going to tell H that I'm going?" It never went farther than that. I felt like I was betraying him somehow by going. So I ultimately had an A. Go figure. The ultimate betrayal. Perhaps I should have went to AlAnon, huh?! I even had an appt once with an addict counselor. Just someone I could talk to to see if my feelings were 'normal'. But I cancelled. I often wonder, if I just would have allowed myself a little freedom to discuss the issue with a professional if I would have been able to handle the problem with more dignity, or if I still would have ended up seeking solace outside of my M. Guess I'll never know.