Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Learning to trust myself III

Thanks for all the support on my last thread. I was surprised to find that it was locked. The final consensus toward the end of that thread was that I am not ready to leave. Perhaps I am taking refuge in my children as NY indicated, but I don't think I'm hiding from anything or placing a burden on them for my happiness.
So, with that being said, I just need to keep going forward. One of the things I've been battling with and that dampens any effort I make to be loving toward H is best summed up by BB's quote below:

It's been awhile in this thread since emotional abuse has been mentioned. But to ML over the course of a year without allowing kissing is emotional abuse in the highest form as far as I'm concerned. And with no apparent plan for that ever changing?

Do you think I'm going about this the right way? I mean, I've considered refusing sex as long as this is our arrangement. Whenever I've brought the topic up for discussion, I'll ask something like "I don't understand why you are healed enough from my A for us to have sex, but you are not healed enough for me to sleep in my own bed"....and now I can't recall if I've ever directly addressed his refusal to kiss me. It seems like a touchier subject b/c it more directly relates to OM than my bed does. But anyway, his repsonse is something like "We shouldn't be having sex either. But it's something we both like, we do it well."
Admittedly, it is not just him who initiates so it's not like I feel used during the act itself, not at all. And I have chose to keep it up for a couple reasons. First, I thought it would be a good 180. In the past it was easier to just take care of me myself than to bring him into it (even in the past although we slept in the same bed, we never went to bed at the same time, so if I was feeling frisky, I'd have to get up, approach him, etc. It was just easier to take care of myself ). So I thought a 180 would be to let him know how sexual I am, he probably doesn't have a clue. Secondly, he seems emotionally closer to me than he would be if we weren't having sex. I am clearly meeting his needs in this area which seems to have a good impact on our R in general. Third, I get some! If I were to choose to withhold, who knows when I'd be having sex again in my life and I would just be starting some game...I'm not good at maintaining games.

Any suggestions?

Any suggestions?

I think you're right to not withhold sex as long as it's something you want to do and something you want to do with H. You're right; that would be game playing on your part. Better to keep that separate from the game playing on his part.

You may not be good at maintaining games but he is. He's got two big ones going right now and he's kept them up for a long time. Has he given you anything even remotely concrete to let you know what has to happen before he'll "let" you sleep in your bed again? If you went to bed before him some night and he came in to find you sleeping in your bed, would he go sleep somewhere else?

I guess it seems to me that after so much time has gone by, he more than owes it to you to at least let you know what he's thinking about the kissing and especially about sleeping in the bed. If it's just that he thinks you're not sorry enough, what does he want to see from you to prove how sorry you are? You shouldn't have to guess and get suggestions. By this point you deserve to know.

And if he won't tell you, I worry you're accepting a lot more than you should.

So I thought a 180 would be to let him know how sexual I am, he probably doesn't have a clue.

We don't assume to know if he has a clue or not.

It might've been a 180 to be more sexual, OK... and the results are...

Secondly, he seems emotionally closer to me than he would be if we weren't having sex.

Well I happen to buy into the idea that consistent and frequent sex keeps a guy acting nicer (conversely, a buildup of testosterone seems to fuel wars, doesn't it?)...

Of course, "nicer" is relative. Matt's degree of "nicer" may mean he spites you one less time per week than he normally would...

Third, I get some!

You could get that anywhere, if sex is all you want.

Reminds me of the story of the little girl and the little boy.

The little boy was a show off and egged on the little girl about how he had a new bicycle and she didn't, and how he had all the latest DVDs and she didn't and how his family had a brand new car and she didn't, and finally, he showed her his penis and pointed how she didn't even have one of those either! So she ran home crying all upset about these things and came back a little while later and calmly said to the little boy:

"My mommy said to tell you that I may not have a new bicycle, and I may not have all the DVDs, and I may not have a new car, but as long as I have one of these", she said, pointing to her crotch, "then I can have all the penises I want!"

Has he given you anything even remotely concrete to let you know what has to happen before he'll "let" you sleep in your bed again?

No. And I've been afraid to directly ask b/c he is so stubborn and me asking him directly would both let him know that I was very bothered by it (and that his punishment is working) and he could also be fueled to continue it just b/c it was brought up in the manner of me requesting to be able to come back in. I don't typically get what I want from him.
I this comes back to the idea that I've never been sorry for what I did and that this is 'just where we are right now'. That was his most recent response. Before he would say things like he didn't need the M, he was foregoing his option to have a mate so that we could stay together for the kids, etc. So at least now he's saying 'this is just where we are *right now*'...indicating that he has hope for the future whereas before he didn't. Wow, there's a stretch for ya, huh??!

If you went to bed before him some night and he came in to find you sleeping in your bed, would he go sleep somewhere else?
I tried this for a while. Like I said, he goes to bed later than me and he stays up watching tv, which is often loud. 'Our' bedroom is farther away from the living room and the TV than the guest room so I would sleep in our bed. When it was time for him to come to bed he would come in and turn on the light and wait for me to leave the room. So, obviously that became way to demeaning and I stopped sleeping in there at all.

I guess it seems to me that after so much time has gone by, he more than owes it to you to at least let you know what he's thinking about the kissing and especially about sleeping in the bed. If it's just that he thinks you're not sorry enough, what does he want to see from you to prove how sorry you are? You shouldn't have to guess and get suggestions. By this point you deserve to know.
So you think I should bring it up for discussion?

So I thought a 180 would be to let him know how sexual I am, he probably doesn't have a clue.

We don't assume to know if he has a clue or not.
I'm sort of assuming and sort of not. In the past he has complained that the frequency of sex was not enough. He had no idea that he was rarely included in the sex *I* was having, lol. Independently of course. So b/c he was unaware, he probably thought that the frequency we were engaging was enough for me. Wrong.

You could get that anywhere, if sex is all you want.

Reminds me of the story of the little girl and the little boy.
Cute story, but being married and all, it doesn't really apply to me, lol.

I'm sort of assuming and sort of not.

It may be based on what you think you're seeing, but it's still assuming.

He had no idea that he was rarely included in the sex *I* was having, lol. Independently of course.

That may have gone for both of you.

being married and all, it doesn't really apply to me

Yeah, I know. I guess what I was inferring, since you didn't get the assumption ha ha ha, was that you're isolating sex, and it is a need and a desire and all that, but you're having sex to fulfill that need and try and make things better, but hell, Heather, no kisses... it's not love and sex without love in a relationship... it just sounds so screwed up... to put up with matt's crap and issues and be subjected continually to his derision and then be treated like a hooker you don't kiss just so he can get off, insofar as he's concerned I'm saying, especially based on his comment that you two shouldn't be having sex at all - but that hey you're good at it - i mean, that's such total BS, truth is probably more like he gets horny and wants to do you pure and simple and he does what he wants. So, you get laid and you get off and you don't walk around wth that itch that needs scratching and yeah, so what? you're still doing battle with him the rest of the time and so my point is... what is my point? oh, my point is that you deserve love, not just a f*cking like he's giving you or that one can get anywhere.

Okay, I'm officially declaring it Pick On Heather Day (sorry).

Back in your old thread you wrote:

Am I unhappier being married to my H than I would be living half the time without my kids? Not right now, that's for sure. Those little angels are my life and I am their mother....every night I sing Billy Joel's lullabye to my daughter and I tell her "I will never leave you...". She's only two. Maybe someday my happiness in a partner will become more center stage, but right now my kids are my priority. We take vacations. We go out to dinner. We do homework. We play. We are a great family and I can't take that away from themn b/c I cheated on my H and now he is an a@@ to me.

I want to emphasize this part:

Maybe someday my happiness in a partner will become more center stage, but right now my kids are my priority.

Exactly. But your kids are also learning from you and Matt every day. They're learning how to resolve conflicts. They're learning coping skills. And they're learning how relationships work. S4 will expect to treat his W like H treats you. D2 will expect to be treated that way. If you're still looking for topics to cover with your C, this might be one to consider.

This issue really hits home with me. Though I think W is occasionally misguided in her parenting style I can say without reservation she loves her kids more than anything and has been willing to make almost any sacrifice for them. In fact she has sacrificed too much for them. I also have always had their best interests at heart and have been there for them more and more as they've gotten older. But for a large part of their lives now they've seen differences of opinion settled by sarcasm, yelling, and fighting. They've had defensiveness modeled as the normal way of being. And guess how they handle conflict within the family? By yelling and fighting and always having to be right. With other people they're usually great. But with each other the slightest issue sets them off. They're great with their parents as long as we're not trying to get them to do something they don't want. Then it's arguing and tracy-logic to the Nth degree. They've done a super job of absorbing what they've been shown.

Given all that, maybe this issue is too personal for me to give advice on. But I think it's worth asking yourself if D2 was in your shoes, what would you hope she would do? Because the biggest part of what she actually would do will be determined by the example you set.

Remind me tomorrow or next week I owe you a cheery post, okay? Or maybe I'll just write a note and remind myself.

Just checking in - hoping "No news is good news"

Just checking in...

Indeed. How was the trip to Annapolis?

Hey guys, thanks for checking in on me. I'm doing fine. H got back from San Diego this past Friday and we've been busy all weekend getting ready for S4's birthday this weekend. My mother is coming tomorrow. Busy.

So, I'm just blah. I feel like I've had the wind knocked out of my sails and after those last couple posts, I just couldn't quite think of anything to say.

I have been stand-offish to my H since he got home. Which isn't particularly good for the R. But it has been difficult for me to contemplate having sex b/c NY's words keep ringing in my ears. I will probably bring up the subject tonight. I plan to ask him first if he remembers saying that, what he meant by it exactly and if he still feels that way. I guess I'll go from there.

Annapolis hasn't happened yet. Not until later this month. And you wanna know what keeps popping into my mind? If I was booked a room w/ a king sized bed or a room with two dbl beds. If it's a king sized bed I don't know if H would sleep on the floor or what.

I've been thinking about something you said on another thread Bud. Something about "Yeah, but if you really knew *everything*, you'd think differently". You put into words the way I always feel when someone points out my H's faults. It's not that I defend H so much as I want people to also see fault in me. So I've been thinking lately about my faults and about the things I like the least about me. I read about anger on Anna's thread and I know that I need to think more about anger in my life. I'm very angry. Anger is the emotion that is closest to the surface for me. You hurt me, I get angry. You get angry at me, I get angry back. I hurt myself, I get angry. Things don't go my way, I get angry. Most people wouldn't know that about me. I come across as demure and innocent and people would be shocked to learn that I can swear like a sailor. So....what does that tell me? I'm not sure yet. But I know my patience is a work in progress and I'm literally ashamed at how quickly I can lose my temper with my kids....I'm going to get the book the Dance of Anger and I think I need to start getting with Anna on meditation b/c I do believe my brain is on overload most of the time.
This has probably been a weird post, full of unformed thoughts. All of these things have been in my head but I haven't had much time to think it through.