Quote: What is it that you cannot imagine with out her. Is that based on comfort or love? Even with all the problems in my marriage it is hard to imagine what life would truly be like with out my H. But I don't know if it is love or just because he has been there for so long I am just use to him being there. Sorta like if I know I am sick in bed he will be there to cook dinner for the kids comfort.
Like I told GEL (or was it Lil?) in answering some of her questions, now might not be the best time to answer that. I’m in a pretty dark mood right now. Ideally, I would like to say that it’s love, my dark mood is pushing me toward saying it’s comfort and familiarity, and reality is probably somewhere in between.
The truth is that ever since I saw the “Why do you want to ML with someone who doesn’t want to ML with you” question raised on this board, I’ve been questioning myself and this R. The reasons I gave earlier for what attracted me to W in the first place are mostly no longer true. We still have very similar religious and political views, but that’s about all. Our tastes in movies, TV, and music have diverged to the point that we rarely go to a movie or watch TV together. The kind-heartedness and generosity aren’t what I thought either. They seem to be either centered on animals or done more for the way they make her feel about herself than out of any real generosity. But just like sex, I really can’t know what she’s thinking – and I guess I shouldn’t try.
I don’t know, I’ve just been feeling very disillusioned and detached lately. I’m just tired of working, agonizing, working some more, digging into my own psyche and motivations to try to improve myself and my M, and working some more, all to no avail. After I’ve suffered through decades of having my needs ignored, and after I’ve put myself through all of that, I can plainly see that any old random stray cat has more value to W than I do. It’s just depressing.
Quote: I heard our C tell W that she was, “a cruel, vicious, vindictive bitch”. W agreed with that assessment.
Yikes!
This reminds me of the lines from Cole Porter's song, "You're the Top"-- "I'm a worthless check, a total wreck, a flop!"
So... maybe your W feels like a complete failure as a wife and mother and the only place she gets wholehearted, unconditional (there's that word again ) affirmation is from the animals?
Does she have such a low opinion of herself (reinforced by you and the kids-- not that I think you're inaccurate) that she sees no point in trying to be anything BUT a "cruel, vicious, vindictive bitch"?
Have you said this to her this bluntly? (I can plainly see that any old random stray cat has more value to W than I do.)
If you haven't...you really need to. My gut is just screaming to me that she doesn't really know the depth she's hurting you. She's taking you sooooo for granted, and yes, I believe she believes you won't leave. And if she does, and you won't, you've removed a lot of your bargaining power (I think).
I guess I feel for those people who won't leave their R (for whatever reason, good/bad/indifferent) you simply hand over the reins to the R to the other person. Now, I know it's not that simple. But I guess for me it's kind of like that saying "how can I miss you if you never go away?" People who take others for granted, as your W does Zbube, are sometimes those who are most in need of something drastic to snap them out of it. If you aren't willing to take a drastic step....she'll likely continue living the way she is, and so will you.
I hate saying things like that...you're such a good man, and you do deserve to be happy. But perhaps you need to really look again at what you are willing to do and what you won't do to snap her out of it.
Lil...you're such a fan of patterns LOL (gotta rib you about that)...so I'm going to point this out to ZBub.
Honeypots H has done an about face...when she told him she no longer loved him. Drastic words....drastic change.
I told my H I couldn't live like this indefinitely and that I didn't trust he would do anything to change our situation. Once again....drastic words, but they've made signifigant changes in my house too.
Now right now Honeypot isn't willing to leave, but she told her H EXACTLY where she stood. It wasn't nice, but it was honest...and it woke her H up, eventually I believe those two are going to find a happy medium.
I was willing to leave...but you know what? I don't think that's what snapped my H out of things...it's the fact I told him I didn't trust him that did it.
Both of us...have been very clear to our spouses, we haven't held back. It seems to me that when we each got to that point and said "to heck with it!" and said what we really needed to say, how we really felt and stopped worrying about what the other person would say/do....it made a difference...and neither of us has had to leave.
Just something to chew on.
Why did you accept that she had crossed your boundary?
Why didn't you cart the puppy back up and take it back?
I believe that your wife treats you the way she does is because you have essentially taught her how to treat you. We all do that.
Your wife needs someone to set some firm boundaries with her and require her to be a better person. It sounds like she doesn't even like the person she is when she is with you. But she does like the person she is with the animals and within her various animal-related organizations.
W does have very low self-esteem. It’s obvious in most areas of her life. I’ve told you about her saying that she’s a bad wife. She also says that she’s not a good mother. Actually, she says something like, “I’m just not the ‘mother’ type”, but in the context and with the inflections, it’s pretty clear that what she’s really saying is that she’s not a good mother. I’ve told you about her weight. She’s way too fat, admits to being way too fat, complains about being so fat, and constantly tells me how much she hates being so fat, but she won’t do anything about it. She hates her teeth, she hates her hair, … She pretty much dislikes everything about her body both individually and as a whole.
I’m sure that I haven’t been entirely successful, but since I’m well aware of her feelings of inadequacy and her poor self-image, I’ve tried very hard not to say or do anything to exacerbate those feelings. That is another thing that has contributed to my conflict avoidance. I am loathe to call her on any of her behavior because I think it will make those feelings even worse. She tells me that she thinks she’s a bad wife. If I complain about some aspect of her behavior in the M, she tells me, “See, I told you I wasn’t a good wife.” And yes, that has happened.
So I really don’t think that we reinforce her feelings of inadequacy and failure. But I do believe that you’re on the right track with the animals’ reaction to W. She has said that she likes animals better than people many times. I’m no shrink, but my gut feeling is that it’s involved with her feelings about herself. She’s not inadequate and not a failure with dogs.
GEL, you make valid points. I haven’t actually told her any of this, bluntly or otherwise. As for the rest of what you said, I’m chewing…
Quote: Why did you accept that she had crossed your boundary?
I don’t know. In this particular case, it was during the EA and in the buildup to the PA and D. I just looked at it as more justification for what I was doing and thinking.
Quote: Why didn't you cart the puppy back up and take it back?
I should have, but see the answer to number one.
Quote: I believe that your wife treats you the way she does is because you have essentially taught her how to treat you. We all do that.
I believe that you’re absolutely, unequivocally, 100% correct. But I have 30 years of inertia propelling me down this path and I don’t know how to change it.
The truth is that ever since I saw the “Why do you want to ML with someone who doesn’t want to ML with you” question raised on this board, I’ve been questioning myself and this R.
Oddly I can understand that. Though as we know I am the one with LD in my relationship. I can see that it is easier to say and understand it being said I want you to want me but not I want you regaurdless if you want me. That changes the dynamics around. And makes one wonder why? I have often wondered why my H still wants me when I have been so apparent in my lack of desire for him. I will keep what I have thought at times about this to myself hence not wanting to make your black mood blacker. And I am not your wife so she may not think the same things.
My suggestion is go home and hug and kiss your kids and hopefully your black mood will lift a little.
Quote: Why didn't you cart the puppy back up and take it back? I should have, but see the answer to number one.
Might sound mean but I am of the belief that you should have taken the puppy (dalmation?) back, especially if it was one that had a high likelyhood fo going to a good home.
This is coming from a guy that had to dump 2 dinners ( and some other things) BB complained about before things changed in that department. Some new problems poped up but I guess that is par for the course.
ZB I told BB a little about your situation because it is has some similar elements.
BB said (she was a mental health worker/nurse and gave patients their medications for 12 years) 1. Your W is not going to change unless she wants to or has a "reason" to change. 2. Ask her does she want the M to decline, improve or her opinion of where the M is going. 3. You need to tell her the M is not working for you and say you need her to talk about what shee sees as your future together. Let her vent. Take notes. Don't make any defensive statements. 4. Ask her if you are doing things that she feels or cause her to withdraw from the family and induce her to work with animals instead of people
Yes, I have heard if someone is alergic to animals, that person needs to go, not the animal so many times it is not funny.
What is your W's number one reason for not changing? What do you think your W's number one reason for changing is?
If you keep being a doormat, moving the line in the sand, maybe one day things will blow up and there won't be a ZB family. Do something now, it wont get any worse is my opinion.
Be very wary of using her W's low-self esteem as an excuse not to say/do what you need to do for your M.
That my friend is an easy, easy trap to fall into. I found myself doing that with my H's low libido. Afterall...I didn't want to say something to embarrass, crush, anger him when it came to something so personal.....but by not saying anything "I" was avoiding the situation too. Then, when I did finally speak up, I tip-toed around him to not hurt his feelings. Looking back now it took forfreakingever for me to say what I really needed to say. Now, I can look back and see why he didn't take me seriously, looking at my behavior, I wouldn't have taken me seriously either.
Your W has issues, that's apparant. Whether or not she deals with them is up to her. However, she is married to you...not the other furry critters running around the house.
ZBube, I'm actually surprised you haven't stated some of the things to her that you've said on here. What are you afraid will happen if you were to tell her these things? What's stopping you?
) affirmation is from the animals?