I think the bottom line is this: the test of whether you are truly a loving servant and whether you are truly putting others' needs before your own in a healthy way and in the way that God intended (if I may be so bold as to speculate on God's intentions) is whether the way you are doing it brings you joy. That is the acid test.
Another good one from Lil. You know that saying "no one is happy unless mama is happy." Sort of the same idea. You are doing no one else around you a favor by living a joyless miserable life. It is NOT selfish to make yourself happy. In fact, it is your RESPONSIBILITY to make yourself happy. Good one.
Quote: So I want things to change, but I don’t want to rock the boat and put W into the “crucible”.
Well ZB, I didn't want to either but living like this is not working.
The thing is not to avoid the “crucible”, but how to impliment it. That is my problem right now. Instesd of avoiding the “crucible", think "what are my skills?" What issues do I want to change? What looks like a first step?
Quote: I just feel like it’s part of my job as a husband, as a father, and as a man, to provide for my family and to do whatever I can to make them happy and safe. I’ve always felt that it was my job to provide for them – and that includes the aforementioned happy and safe.
How about this version (I just feel like it’s part of my job as a husband, as a father, and as a man, to provide for my family and to do whatever I can to make them some what happy and safe. I’ve always felt that it was my job to provide for them).
My take on your situation is Mrs ZB would be only happy living like a neighbor of mine (two divorced women) that have 160 cats and 10 dogs. People volunteer and help them.
Quote: but there is a lot in Christian teaching about being a servant, having a servant’s heart, dieing to self, and things of that nature
What if everyone just dies. No heaven, no hell, no judgment record? What if everything is based on the "Golder Rule" or some socialogical model that states "do what is the most good for the most people" and people who over indulge other people are a problem similat to the people that just take?
I tought sunday school for a while and then had some classes in sociology, psychology, and statistics shortly after. Talk about conflicting ideas. Can you prove your beliefs are correct and are they making you and your family happy?
Quote: I was happy and fulfilled with OW, but I had this nagging guilt over what was “right”. What I wanted was sacrificed for what was best for my daughter and for the duty I had to W and to God.
Is it working? I can see doing right by/for the kids, but the way your post reads, that put in an almost no win situation with your W's present state of mind.
I think "doing the right thing" only works if everyone is on the same page.
Quote: I would be much happier if things in my M would change
Back to where I started. What does "Right" look like. What skills do you have to make the changes. Where are your "stuck" points. I have "I'm stuck at points" I am working on.
ZB, I don't have my situation fixed, I intend to do the "right things" and fail sometimes.
Do you read LFL and Glob's post about how dead they felt but had glimpse of excitement when they were with the OP. You felt it too with the OW. And add Lil's post that that happiness is in you at this time. The OP did not give it to you. Is that enough for you to want something better?
I always thought A's were a bad thing. Well I changed my mind. some good can come from an A. It's sad they cause so much pain though.
The Germans during WWII exposed people to varing degrees of cold and moisture. This was a research project. Many people died. After the experiments, some people did not want to use the data because it was basically obtained by torture methods. Other people said to use the data to honor the dead because some good came from a bad thing. Should we not use the data to save other people? My opinion to use it to make someones life better.
Can you use anything in your M from your relationship with the OW? i don't have any suggestions how you can do this at this time, but read LFL and Glob's posts and take your ideas, condense it down and see it there is an answer or a motivating factor in there somewhere.
Lou Astroglide for one
PS Maybe Mrs ZB and spot can get together with Mrs Lou and her babies and have tea on Friday. Then you and I can talk. BTW how is 4th grade? (nothing about you ZB) I am just stating how I feel about animals taking a dominate role in the family
Quote: The Germans during WWII exposed people to varing degrees of cold and moisture. This was a research project. Many people died. After the experiments, some people did not want to use the data because it was basically obtained by torture methods. Other people said to use the data to honor the dead because some good came from a bad thing. Should we not use the data to save other people?
Wow. I'm saying that a lot on the board today. I think I have heard of this... but it is quite moving to read it again. "Other people said to use the data to honor the dead." Wow. A very touching and humbling thought.
I always thought A's were a bad thing. Well I changed my mind. some good can come from an A. It's sad they cause so much pain though.
I still do. They are terribly destuctive to peoples lives. They destroy families, many times lives, and often go untreated in most cases leaving lifetime emotional scars. The lessons learned, good gained, from them could be achieved in other ways.
Once the damage is done however there is no point in dwelling on the errors, and it is far more productive to use it as a springboard for growth, change and improvement.
What the German's did to gather the information on wind chill and hypothermia is atrocious. The end does not justify the means. We do not continue to do these tests over and over and over again with the same results and say it is a good thing.
Shall we all go out and have an affair to see what good may come out of it?
I am sick of hearing how an A is a good thing. Congrats if you can rebuild after the storm knocks down your house, and if you are lucky you will have a nicer, 'better' house afterwards. That is small consolation to losing all the 'valuables' and 'memories' that it contained. These feeling and beliefs existed before my sitch. Now they are doubly so.
Quote: I just feel like it’s part of my job as a husband, as a father, and as a man, to provide for my family and to do whatever I can to make them happy and safe. I’ve always felt that it was my job to provide for them – and that includes the aforementioned happy and safe. I’ve always felt that their happiness came before mine. Some of it is religious too. I’m probably misapplying it, but there is a lot in Christian teaching about being a servant, having a servant’s heart, dieing to self, and things of that nature. So somewhere along the way, I’ve absorbed the belief that putting others before myself is the right thing to do and makes me a better person – not to mention that it pleases God. But I don’t want to get into a theological discussion here (especially without MrHP), I’m just trying to help all of you understand where I’m coming from.
Bube, think through the Gospels. Read about Jesus. See how much emphasis he spent on making people "safe and happy".
This does not however, translate to "I can be an a$$hole."
In your case, dying to self, might just be having to jack up your loincloth and confront the ongoing childish, belligerant, damaging behaviors in which your wife occasionally engages.
What you think is dying to self, is actually strengthening self - because your self is given toward conflict avoiding and enabling. Sure you pay a price, but it evidently isn't as high a price as would be exacted by actually addressing your own acknowleged tendencies.
Do you see what I am saying? You want your wife to change some of her core issues, while refusing to address your own. Even worse, (and I understand, I walk this same path) you have managed to trick them out in religious garb which makes them even more difficult to deal with.
What if the very thing your wife needs is for ZB to start plowing his own field, and planting something other than the flowers of conflict avoidance and veggies of martydom?
Martyrdom is what comes *naturally* to you - pushing through it to being the person who *stands up and speaks out* to the damaging behaviors in your household would be more indicative of "dying to self."
Quote: They are terribly destuctive to peoples lives. They destroy families, many times lives, and often go untreated in most cases leaving lifetime emotional scars. The lessons learned, good gained, from them could be achieved in other ways
I am not advocating for A's. Yes they are bad. Just like the cold experiments were very bad. they never should have happened.
What I am saying is people learn from the mistakes of A's and might have some good things from an A that they can bring foward to their R.
I will use your W's A. You learned not to bring a close friend into your M. It is destructive. Maybe LFL learned she was not unlikeable? Maybe she learned she could have a better with her H? Maybe she learned she could insist her H pay more attention her? That is what I was referring to as a benefit of the A.
10 years ago, I would have thought me posting on the board was something like cheating or at least betraying BB. Look where that line of thinking has gotten me. Thinking some R just go sour gradually till someone leaves. I thought most older women were past being interested in sex and most women wanted security or things from a man. I will guit with what I thought women wanted. I don't want to paint a negative picture.
Reading and posting on this site has changed my opinion of men and women for the better.
So I am not pro A, just learning to look at some things differently. People are going to continue to have them, so lets ssee all of the bad and the little good that comes from A's and label or judge it as such. If I had a way to prevent A's and fix R's, then I would say all parts of A's are bad.
I agree The lessons learned, good gained, from them could be achieved in other ways.
Blackfoot I respect your opinion that you do not see any benefit to affairs. The person having the affair will obviously have a different perspective than the one being betrayed (like you were). I don't think all affairs are created equal. Someone who has an affair to just have a sexual thrill ( I think of a macho serial cheater type, cocky, confident, just wants a new piece of ass once in a while) are NOT the same as someone like myself or Globule who reached out the OP when they were at a horrible low point in their life. Low self-esteem, depression, etc. That OP is facilitating all of the postitive feelings that Lil has so eloquently expressed in other posts. The feelings that the person has within themselves but cannot get out no matter how hard they try. It is very hard to describe unless you have gone through it and I'm sure that you haven't. In fact, if you weren't so anti-affair, I think your personality traits would fit you into the "serial cheater" category I just described much more so than in the "desperate for EC/PC" category. Please stop judging others when you do not understand where they are coming from. People in glass houses and all...
Maybe LFL learned she was not unlikeable? Maybe she learned she could have a better with her H? Maybe she learned she could insist her H pay more attention her? That is what I was referring to as a benefit of the A. That's exactly how I feel Og_Lou. I think people with low self-esteem or just someone who has been M to someone for many years without a strong sexual/emotional connection can almost forget that they CAN be desired, attractive, sexy etc. You start to be conditioned that you are NOT a sexual human being. You feel like you want to be, maybe even think you are, but you have no proof. And who would want me anyways? I feel totally the opposite now! That is very powerful. I feel like I am a totally different person and yes, my H likes me better. Would I haven't gotten to this place without the OM. No way. If H decided to come back after our C and I never had the R with OM, I almost guarantee we would go back to the old ways of the M. I needed that confidence I found by dating someone else. I know that sounds strange to some of you but that is what I needed for ME. Is that weak? Maybe. But I don't feel weak now. There is nothing worse than a feeling of desperation, whether it to save a M, or something else. I don't feel desperate anymore. That is POWERFUL. Like Blackfoot said, I need to have the house blow down before rebuilding something better. Sure, the old "furnishings" and "memories" are gone, but they weren't that great to begin with. Now we have something so much better.
Your affair and Glob's aren't similar. Your husband had abandoned you and the marriage. I believe I recall you saying that you had mutually agreed that you both could see other people. That's puts you at a different starting point. Glob and his wife didn't have such an understanding.
Dr. Shirley Glass (author of "Not Just Friends") answered the following in an interview.
"Dr. G.: After an affair, I do not ask the question you would expect. The spouse always wants to know about "him or her". "What did you see in her that you didn’t see in me?" Or, "what did you like about him better?" One man asked, "was it that he had a bigger penis?" I always ask about "you": "What did you like about yourself in that other relationship?" How were you different? And, of the way that you were in that other relationship, what would you like to bring back so that you can be the person you want to be in your primary relationship? How can we foster that part of you in this relationship?
Q: That’s a surprising question. How did you come to know that’s the question to ask? Dr. G.: There is an attraction in the affair, and I try to understand what it is. Part of it is the romantic projection: I like the way I look when I see myself in the other person’s eyes. There is positive mirroring. An affair holds up a vanity mirror, the kind with all the little bulbs around it; it gives a nice rosy glow to the way you see yourself. By contrast, the marriage offers a make-up mirror; it magnifies all your wrinkles and pores, every little flaw. When someone loves you despite the fact that they can see all your flaws, that is a reality-based love. In the stories of what happened during the affair, people seem to take on a different persona, and one of the things they liked best about being in that relationship was the person they had become. The man who wasn’t sensitive or expressive is now in a relationship where he is expressing his feelings and is supportive. "
End quote.
One of the things that stood out to me in the above is the "When someone loves you despite the fact that they can see all your flaws, that is reality-based love."
She goes on to say:
"Q: How many affairs survive as enduring relationships? Dr. G. Only 10 percent of people who leave their relationship for affairs end up with the affair partner. Once you can be with the person every day, and deal with all the little irritations in a relationship that make it less romantic, you’re into Stage Two—disillusionment. Several people have told me they wish the affair had never happened; they wish they had worked on their marriage instead. Once they got into an affair, it was too compelling. But now that the affair has settled into a reality based relationship, it is too late to go back to the marriage; they destroyed too much. "
End Quote:
So, for all the rosy feelings engendered during the affair period, the *truth* is that the same affair partner who made you feel like a million bucks, in just a short amount of time, is just another destroyed partner in an expired relationship where the warm fuzzies have melted away.
(nothing about you ZB) I am just stating how I feel about animals taking a dominate role in the family 