IHJ and I differ on this one.....IMPO...Yes, it would still be avoiding. Just from the outsiders perspective...you are looking for reasons NOT to confront her. The C would be a great thing for you, but IMPO she's probably the one who needs the C more than you do....so how about a compromise, a couples counselor? Someone who can see each of you separately every now and then, but then bring you together for sessions too....that's how my H and I got started with this C and it's working really well.
The list I suggested you to write, would help you illustrate the point that counseling is necessary.
Now about her liking animals over people comment, I used to say that all the time, and meant it....why? Animals never intentionally hurt you, they never really ask anything of you other than being cared for, and they are always there for you when you need comfort.
If your W grew up in a household like she did, whether or not she was truly abused is pretty much irrelevant, she believes she was so in her mind...she was. If her sister and mom were the way they were, that certainly can tear someone down too and send them deep into a shell. It's very easy to say "she's an adult now....it's high time she put it behind her" but it's not that simple. I could also say the same thing to you about confronting your W But for you confronting her is simply not that easy either, yet you are an adult...should be able to do this, but it's simply not that easy huh? Dontchya just love honesty? LOL
Zbube, my mom was raised in a house that kind of sounds similar to what your W lived with, minus the brother. Her older sister was the obvious favorite, was showered with gifts, got to do everything...mom was left out in the cold, never got to do anything (because the money was spent on her sis), never got anything new, and was never encouraged or told how pretty/smart etc she was. My mom is now a PAINFULLY shy person. It would be easy for me to say...your an adult just deal with it, but that's years of conditioning that wormed it's way into her brain telling her she's not good enough.
It seems to me your W may be in a similar boat. The more I'm hearing the more I'm thinking:
#1 You definitely need to confront her (calmly & unprovoked) about your M.
#2 You both need counseling, separately & as a couple.
This can be worked through, but you won't be able to avoid the conflict.
Well, the way I see it is that for some reason, ZB has this fear of confronting W...after all it's going to be unpleasant, it's going to take lots of work and energy over time, it's the loss of stability that W represents....psychologically, it's like Z-B feels he's going to be annhilated by a category 5 hurricane---he may want the shelter of a therapist who can work with him in a "real" way. Although he will encounter a series of storms, in the end he will be able to feel a rainbow inside...a sense of confidence and growth. Z-B, if you can do this on your own, then all the more power to you...if not, enlist a C, not to hide, but to promote your growth.
Oh and GEL, I agree...it seems that the ones most needing of C are the ones who avoid it the most.
I want to make sure you both know...I'm not saying that going to the C first would be a bad thing, of course it wouldn't. I was more commenting to you Zbube, that what you were doing in asking if going to a C first would still be avoiding conflict....because, yes...it is.
However, at least if you do go to the C 1st it's constructive...it's not just leaving all of this in your head and muddling it over endlessly.
I re-read my post and I didn't quite get across what I'd intended.
I do think though that Zbube, if both of you go to a C together you have a much better chance of getting your W to understand how her refusal (perhaps not the right word) to deal with her issues is truly affecting your M, because it's affecting how she interacts (or doesn't in her case) with you.
I was also not completely successful in communicating what it was I was trying to ask. Let me try again. We’ve been down the MC route twice before. As you know, when it came time to address some of W’s real issues, primarily sex, W quit going. She said that there was nothing more the C could do for her. She professed to like both C’s and still talks about how good the first one was, but she didn’t address her real issues while she and we were seeing him. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that it would be any different if I were to start the process again.
So rather than asking if it would be another manifestation of my avoidance if I were to go back to the C, maybe I should have explained myself more. What I was really considering was going back myself as a more or less one shot deal. I’ve done it a couple of times before. What I was really thinking about was talking to the C, who knows her and who has dealt with her before, and asking him how I should approach her and how much I should bring up.
I also considered asking W to go back to the C with me. There was also a part of me that knows W’s anger problems all too well. That part was thinking that it might be better to start this process with an impartial referee. The truth is that I know the C can’t help her unless she wants to be helped. I also know that I am the only one who can put the pressure on her to make her want to be helped. So getting back into MC on a continuing basis probably wouldn’t be productive at this point. Maybe if and when she feels the need to address some of our/her problems, but not now.
So the intent isn’t really to avoid. The idea was to get some professional advice on how to handle things. The reason I was thinking that it might just be more avoidance is because I honestly believe that all of you have given me outstanding advice already. What could the C say that would be better than your telling me to be honest and clear and to do it in a calm and controlled way?
Oh yeah - I hardly saw W last night either. I was at work late (legitimately this time - not avoiding going home) and she was out in the barn/kennels when I got there. I told her I was home and going back in to scrounge up something to eat. She hadn't made it back in by the time I went to bed.
If you feel going to the C for a one-shot session would benefit you, I'm sure it would help.
Your W makes me think of my H refusing to actually deal with his problems when he would say "I've never talked about that stuff!" What he was trying to do was avoid talking about it because he was uncomfortable with it...but when he would say that it came across as "I've never talked about that stuff, never have...and damned well never will!!!!"
I had to call him on the carpet with this to get him to see what he was doing. I told him...I know those aren't the words that are coming out of your mouth....but you say "I've never talked about that stuff!!" so emphatically that it sounds like that.
Out of curiosity...back when your W stopped going to a C did you tell her that no one will be able to help her if she's unwilling to talk about those things that need to be talked about? I know you don't like confrontation, but I had to do this with my H too...."honey it's often those things that you find most uncomfortable to talk about and don't want to talk about that are the key to the problem." He's quoted me saying that several times....it's apparantly stuck in his mind. You might try something like that with your W...I don't know, just throwing stuff out there for you to see what might stick
W comes across that way too. At the time she quit going to the C, she told me, "It's just something I have to work on myself." Pressing for specifics got no response. Big shock there, huh?
I understand beeeeelieve me...it's very frustrating. I guess my point in telling you these things is this....I had to confront him about it, I had to call him on the carpet for him to see what he was doing and literally get him to understand how his words sounded.
Fortunately one day...we were in our C's office waiting for our appt. Someone said something in a very emphatic tone of voice that came across like "I won't and you can't make me"...I don't remember their words but that was the tone. The tone in this mans voice stopped both of us....as we walked past the man, I asked my H "did you hear him?" he said "yeah"....."well honey, that's EXACTLY how you sound when you say "I've just never talked about it!"" He said, "really?...wow!" This was right about the time our C told him she could tell he was resisting too.
I guess it was the key turning in the lock of understanding for him....he was beginning to see that he really was digging in his heels, he didn't know why, but he was doing it. The only way for him to stop doing that and save our M was to get past it somehow.
That's one of the reasons I soooo advocate cutting the BS between you two. Both of you are going to have to stop avoiding...but I think we both know you are going to have to do it first, sucks but true. If you don't stop avoiding the conflict, she sure as heck won't step up and do it and make the necessary corrections to your R.
Perhaps going to the C on your own for a session or two will help give you the tools to better handle a conflict situation....because they will have to happen in order for change to start happening.
I know you'll eventually work this thing out and get to the point where you can do something...it's just a tough process sometimes getting to that point.
I know you’re right. I know it. I just haven’t worked up the temerity to do it yet. I had just about screwed up the courage to drop the ‘I don’t feel important to you’ bomb on her when W launched into a rant about herself and her dogs. Apparently, a friend and neighbor had a talk with her on Friday about her obsession with the animals. So W got her dander up and called me to vent. She told me that she had given this friend a piece of her mind. Then I got the enhanced version of the rant.
This is a pretty comprehensive rant that runs down all of the injustices rained upon W. Most of it revolves around how much she does and how unappreciated she is. To be honest, I’ve heard it so many times before that I was only half listening - I already know it by heart. For some reason, I don’t seem to be a target, but everybody else is. The kids are the main targets. W works and slaves, devoting herself completely to doing things for this “bunch of ingrates” and gets no help and no appreciation. Well she’s tired of staying so busy doing everything for everybody else and getting nothing in return. Now she’s going to do something she likes, something for herself. And if anybody doesn’t like it – too bad. Then she assured this friend that I was just as invested in this rescue thing as she is.
OK, I know that was my chance to say, “Well, actually, I’m not.” and then launch into my list. But that didn’t happen. As always seems to be the case, this rant had all taken place on the phone while I was at work. Call me silly, but I just don’t like to do this kind of thing while I’m at work. I already spend too much time doing things like writing this, but at least this is quiet. I just don’t want to get into a discussion of our marital problems where everybody around me can hear over the cubicle walls.
I took off at lunchtime on Friday and went home to batten down the hatches before Rita got here, and W, of course, was off attending to some dog stuff. I secured what I could and headed off with D17 for the football game (if you remember, I move band equipment). It was homecoming, so there was a big halftime to-do and the game ran really long. I didn’t get home until after midnight. W was already asleep.
She jumped up early on Saturday and took the dogs out. Then she came back to bed and actually initiated. After we ML, she offered to take me out to breakfast. I know it’s another sign of weakness, but after being freshly .., uhhh, freshly …, ML to, and freshly fed, I didn’t even complain when she told me that I had to go to a microchipping event. D17’s BF was going and they needed me to move him. He has Spinal Muscular Atrophy and is wheelchair bound. I’m the only one in the family who can lift him in and out of the chair and the van. His usual powered chair won’t fit at all, but we have a smaller one he can use and a normal, manual one that we take sometimes. So I went without complaining.
Yesterday, I just plain wimped out. W did throw a fit after church, but I just let it pass. She was working on fixing lunch and got mad because the kids hadn’t taken the dogs out. There was a brief rehash of the Friday rant wherein she yelled about having to do everything herself. Then she took the dogs out and refused to cook. This may be another place where I need to do a 180, but over the years I’ve developed a habit of just ignoring these outbursts. If I respond, she just gets more riled up, but if I ignore them, they usually blow over pretty quickly. This one did just that. She pouted in the bedroom for about 20 minutes, then came out and finished fixing lunch. The sad thing about the whole thing, apart from my own wimpiness, is that the kids were in the other end of the house and were completely oblivious. They didn’t even know that she had had the blowout.
So here we are starting another week where I’ve done nothing toward resolving our problems. I did call the C though. I’m in on Wednesday for a little advice on how to proceed.
You'll get to the point where you can have the convo, I don't blame you for not wanting to get into it at the office either.
Perhaps when you do have the convo, because of her rant, you could approach it as "honey I know you need to do something for yourself, I understand that...but right now I see you adding to your stress by not limiting the number of dogs/cats you take in, it has gotten out of control."
At least that way you don't discount that she needs something for "her", but you are also pointing out...there has to be a limit. This could lead in to you letting her know too because she doesn't limit her time spent w/the rescue that she leaves no time for you two as a couple.
I really appreciate the offer to email you, but I think I’ll just post a semi-change of subject here for all to see.
I don’t know what’s going on with me, but there are lots of changes. In a way, I feel like I’m headed where Honeypot has been, but in another, I’m not there at all. As you know, I’ve felt that things were going pretty well and were still headed in the right direction until just recently. The past three or four months, W has gotten deeper and deeper into the animal thing and our SL has gone into the dumper. Along with the SL, my desire and EC have gone into a tailspin as well. I’ve told you before that W and I have always been affectionate, just that the affection never translated into ML. Well that’s becoming less and less the case all the time. As W has increased her involvement in her cause and as our SL has headed into the toilet, I’ve just completely lost interest. I enjoy talking to W and I like her company, but I have no interest in, for lack of a better word, romance. I don’t want to come up behind her and give her that little squeeze. I don’t want to hold her hand. I don’t want to touch her when we’re in bed. There’s no acrimony that I’m aware of. There are no bad feelings. There are really no feelings. I’m simply not interested.
The same attitude extends to sex. She has initiated the last three times, including this morning. All three times I have obliged, but I really wasn’t interested. I’m so disinterested that I’ve had a hard time getting an E. I’ve gone through the motions of stimulating her. I’ve given her oral and she has had her Os, but I’ve been flaccid the whole time. It really has felt just like I’ve described it: going through the motions. It’s taken sustained direct stimulation to get the E, and the last time, I even started to lose it while we were ML. Today, it wasn’t happening at all. There is no physical problem, I can get an E and have no problem if I MB, but with her – nothing. So what’s going on here?
Now for the really weird part. Since all this has begun to transpire, I feel like our R has improved a good bit. I’m not much good at self-analysis, but I think that my lack of interest in sex has just taken a lot of the stress and pressure off of me. Before, I was a bit like CeMar: always trying to figure out how to get W to ML and like it. It colored almost every aspect of our R. Now, that’s all gone. I don’t want it. I don’t try, so she doesn’t turn me down or half-heartedly comply and I don’t get resentful.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m still not happy that W devotes so much of herself to the animals and significantly less to me or the kids. I still think the animal thing is out of control. But this post is more about me. I’ll be leaving in an hour or so and probably won’t check back until Monday, so ruminate and give me some thoughtful answers. What’s going on and what should I be doing about it?
But for you confronting her is simply not that easy either, yet you are an adult...should be able to do this, but it's simply not that easy huh? 