Yes, that is how I look at the question of "Why do I want to ML to someone who doesn't want to ML to me" also. I think it is a valid question as I know that my behaviors to achieve a SL with H range from valid, reasonable displays of desire all the way down to whining, cajoling insistence that he show me some sexual attention.
Well folks, I don't know about you but when you get to the point of basically "begging" it isn't good. So then, why do it? Why not just go off and mb? Why not just become celibate? Why not just hang out and wait until eventually, after a long while, H gets horny? Because. Because it isn't satisfying to me as a person. I can no more respect myself as a person when I accept the situation and leave the status quo than I can when I whine, beg or indeed manipulate.
Mrs. Nops question is also valid. However, I do know that my H wants to be married to me. I know this deep in my heart. Some sitch's here need to look at that question more than others. In my sitch, the fact that we both want to married to the other and for faith reasons are unlikely to leave gives both motivation to work on things and is demotivating depending. I will have to figure out how that all plays out.
ZB - sometimes your W reminds me of Mrs. Lou. You do have a respect problem here. Accept the animals you have, help with them. If another comes in the door - put it back out. It is time for you to have some decision making in this R too.
Well said, Karen. The self respect issue comes into play whether you are begging, or accepting. I know W wants to stay married, too. But she doesn't seem to want to touch or be touched much. She doesn't seem to want to ML. How can I balance my self respect with her wall of non-physicality?
There’s just one thing… This may be playing word games, and if any of you think that’s the case, feel free to call BS on me, but I don’t think it was guilt that brought me back. If you’ll remember my dissertation on guilt, I said that even after I came back, I still felt justified in what I had done and didn’t really feel guilty at all. The guilt came into the picture later. I came back because I felt that I had an obligation to my W, to my DD, and to God. I had some intellectual guilt since I knew that adultery was wrong, but I didn’t feel any guilt.
While I’m on the subject of guilt, I have more to say. Everybody keeps telling me that it’s time to give up the guilt and forgive myself. I really think I have done that. I do have some remorse that I made a bad decision that was detrimental to my family, but it’s not like the bag of rocks. It’s no different than other bad decisions that have affected us. I sold the building when I sold my business. That was probably a bad decision; it was a paid-for, money-making asset that was in a primo location. It could still be generating income for me. But it’s too late to cry about it now. I look at the A and the D exactly the same way. It was a bad decision that adversely affected my family, but it’s over and done with. And it was a long time ago.
Quote: IMHO you played the big card back then, and if you make noises like you might leave again, she can fold her arms across her chest, look you in the eye, and say BTDT. To me the D sealed your fate even more than the A.
I tend to agree with that assessment as well. It does make me feel even more powerless that I would otherwise.
Quote: ZB - sometimes your W reminds me of Mrs. Lou. You do have a respect problem here. Accept the animals you have, help with them. If another comes in the door - put it back out. It is time for you to have some decision making in this R too.
OK, I know I didn’t handle this well, but W did it again yesterday. At about a quarter to seven last night she asked me to come outside. When I asked her why, she asked, “Don’t you want to see the new arrivals?” I just said, “Not really. What I really want to do is hook up this new DVR that’s been sitting in the box on the bedroom floor for six weeks.” Then I proceeded to do just that and didn’t mention the dogs again.
So maybe I should have blown up, but remember, I’m still a conflict avoider at heart. Some people will tell me that I should have made her take them back, but I can’t do that either. It’s a lot like W refusing to eat any of our cows. She says that she can’t eat any cows she knows personally. Well, I can leave the dogs in the pound knowing full well that they’ll be euthanized, but once we have them, I can’t take them back to certain death. Call me a wimp if you wish, but that’s just the way it is. Don’t ask me why I can do it with cows but not dogs. I just can’t.
Yeah, I see your point. I don't think you haven't forgiven yourself. I also don't see you wallowing in guilt. I think that SHE hasn't forgiven you... and given what you've said about her here, probably never will.
In that sense, while you may not be feeling guilty, and you may feel morally justified and right about your decision to come back. you are allowing her to punish you day after day. So even if you're not guilty, you're still doing time for your crime. This is a life sentence.
I think she is the one who cannot put the D behind her. The reason I think she regards the D as a bigger crime than the A is that an A is mostly a private offense-- a major offense, but private. Even if other people know about it, it's not official, it's something that can be kept under wraps, if the parties involved so desire. And when you got into the A, you did the right thing, you left so you could be with this other woman. So your W can't fault you for cheating behind her back for years.
But the D is a public, legal declaration that you no longer want to be married to this person. That you have reached a point where you want to take back the promises that you made in front of friends and family. It's taking something that you two created and holding its head under water until it stops breathing. It is a cruel and destructive act-- often necessary, but still, a public execution.
I would guess the D was much more humiliating to her than the A, because regarding the A, YOU were WRONG, so your W could stand loftily on the moral high ground. "He did me wrong, he's an @sshole, he left me for an OW."
By leaving your W and divorcing her, you publicly and legally straightened out the situation. That was the right thing to do at the time, but a public humiliation to the person who was left.
For your own reasons, you further decided that the right thing to do was to come back to the marriage. She took you back, so she's not in a moral position to fault you for that... but she can sure the h*ll punish your @ss for the rest of your life for what you put her through.
You've paid the price, you've done the time, you've made amends-- WHEN is she going to let you out of jail?
Fine. I understand how you feel about the animals but W needs to know that she is taking advantage of you on this points. DO NOT avoid this conflict. I am a conflict avoider too. At some point avoiding conflict gets more painful than having conflict. You are getting there.
I cringed through most of your post Lil. You were on spot. When my H up and left I was humiliated. Some of those feelings are still there. I think reaching to OM was my way of evening the score to a degree. Two wrongs don't make a right, I know, but in my mind we are on a more even playing field now. Mrs. Z_Bube may never have felt the score was evened and thus, years later, is still trying to stick it to Z_Bube. I feel sorry for her because I can almost see myself in her shoes. I knew I couldn't live like that though. I guess it's never to late to work this out Z_Bube but I can see what I hard struggle it will be for you. Hang in there. Thinking of you.
I agree with everything you said about the A and the D, including the public vs. private thing. I just have a couple of comments. It doesn’t really come together as anything but disjointed comments, so I’ll just present them that way.
W says that she’s forgiven me and that it’s all long behind us. I don’t know the truth of that statement.
The public humiliation is a non-issue. Since we’ve moved twice since the D, we don’t know anybody but our own immediate families that even knows we were divorced. Of course it’s quite possible to feel humiliated even if nobody else knows, but the public aspect doesn’t really apply here. Nobody knows.
I don’t know about the punishment thing either. I noticed definite punishment in the first couple of years after we got back together, but I don’t see that any more. She doesn’t treat me any better or worse than she did before the A.
Karen,
I also agree with you. I do believe that I’m rapidly approaching the point where avoiding the conflict becomes more painful that the conflict itself. I’ve just avoided conflict for so long that I don’t know how to face it. I think that’s why I’ve been is such a black mood – the pain keeps building and I don’t know what to do with it. I’ve been trying to suppress it, but it’s built to the point that that isn’t working any more. I really have no conflict resolving skills. I’m very good at it at work, but in my own personal life, I’ve been avoiding conflict basically forever.
How in detail is conflict resolution different at work from the way it is at home? (I grant you it's different, but what specifically makes it different? Nuts and bolts.)
You have conflict resolution skills at work; it's just that they don't transfer to home. And from what you said, you are able to confront conflict at work.
You really need to stand up to her about bringing more animals home. I can certainly understand not wanting to send the animals back once they are there.....BUT having said that. There is no reason you that you shouldn't stand up to her when she does this...and say, this is it!!! No more animals, period. Bub, these animals are a point of contention and respect.
I've also got to say this....your statement of (I’m still a conflict avoider at heart) makes it sound like, ok guys...remember I'm a conflict avoider here, so this is why I don't stand up for myself.
You sound like you are using the fact that you are a conflict avoider as an excuse for not standing up for yourself....as a reason to not stand up for yourself. Do you really want to be THAT man?
On other threads we've discussed what women find attractive. Zbub...women don't find men attractive who let them walk all over them, your W (and her animals) are walking all over you. She's not likely to respect you if you don't start standing your ground.
YOU have the ability to make a decisive paradigm shift in your R. But you are going to have to stand firm on it. Let her know that if she crosses the boundary on bringing animals home what will happen....(if it were me, I'd make her take them back, but that's just what I would do).
You've got to start talking to her and saying the things you say on here to her.
You've got to start letting her know where you feel you fit in her life.
You've got to let her know you don't feel a priority.
You've got to draw boundaries, it's your life & M too!
You have this in you ZBube!! We all know you do, you just have to decide to do it.
