By the way, one other thought. Yes it is fun to diagnose others, but for me there is more to it than that. It is a great learning tool and way to immerse myself in a subject that may otherwise be difficult for me to approach. As long as I don’t get my ego caught up in being right (and I know some think this is my purpose, but I disagree) and I am not damaging in my remarks to others (I know I’ve been guilty of that), then I am free to explore different topics in ways I never could if I had only focused on myself.
Furthermore, how would I know what within me to focus on? If there is something troubling me, I may not be aware of it, so how would I know to diagnose myself? Looking at others help ME. I can see correlations, patterns, behaviors that my wife and I have that I may not otherwise be aware of. So for me, this practice is more than simply amusing.
"Well, I had to comment on this Cobra. All of the social sciences are "science" or they could not be called such. It is not based on "opinion" "guesses" or "estimates." True, the systematic observation in social science differs than in physics, math, etc , but all science is tentative. What we consider fact at one point in time may be "proven" false at another. ie. earth center of the galaxy or the sun (just as an example)." VERY TRUE LFL! This is something that many ivory-tower natural scientist do a poor job conveying to their students, and I am sure many do not truly understand themselves. All of the sciences base their theories on reasoned interpretation of the data at hand. Most people really forget that all the "laws" of physics are really at their core human-constructed models that help us organize our perception of reality. That is not to downplay the significance of the fundamental laws and theories in natural sciences, they would not be called such if a lot of work had not been done by some trying to prove their usefulness AND other trying vigorously to disprove them.
Steven Hawking had a great quote on this: "Science is not a quest for truth. It is a quest for the best model to fit the data at hand." Questions about truth are in the hands of philosophers and theologians. Scientists (social and natural) are duty bound to follow the evidence and always strive to find a better model by creating experiments that produce more accurate data to test those models.
I personally reject the notion that some sciences are superior in their ability to glean useful information. Granted, some are more in their infancy than others, and some deal with much more complex issues. Physics is very successful at coming up with good models because it tends to focus on the most controlled circumstances. Social scientists often do not have the luxury of a completely controlled environment with minimal variables. Being a natural scientist, I have a lot of respect for all fields of science and try to incorporate as much of the knowledge of other disciplines into the understanding of my own.
Off of my personal soapbox now. Sorry for polluting the thread.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
So even the “experts” do not know. Secondly, those very experts do just that – look for patterns, i.e., correlations between their assumptions and observations.
Part of my ( former) work is in the interpretation of laboratory data, and I will tell you now that much of medicine...not just psychology... is an intuitive, art form. I have watched pathologists vote at biopies to determine if a patient has cancer. What could be more clear cut than looking at a slide of cells under a microscope? This drives me insane---we have to go on impressions, and I find myself trusting certain people's judgments...with nothing to back them up but their own sense of things.
On the BB we are making impressions based on an online persona... we receive limited and one-sided information at best and post our comments through our own personal filters. But somehow it works... I have found this BB to be very helpful. So post away, everyone!
But my wife kept fishing around and found an “expert” who would tell her what she wanted to hear, so the kids are on meds.
This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that someone sees something that may fit and run full throttle with it. Your wife did just that. And more then likely learned to tailor her answers to fit the profile as she learned more knowledge of the disorder. So by the time she found the last expert she may have presented a saga of full blown ADD to him since she already had it in her mind that they did. She just needed to convince someone else. ADD is mainly diagnosed from questions asked of untrained school officals and parents. And there are numerous kids out there that are on meds based on these untrained opinions. Hence a large reason for my dislike of slapping labels on another if we do not have the medical training to do such.
I could post the questions asked since I have the worksheet sitting downstairs on my counter and you can see how easy it would be to manipulate the outcome.
My one son who is as smart as a whip. Does not apply himself and cuts up in class alot. So they suggested I take him to the doctor to see if he has ADD. Because they did not want to be responsible for dealing with his behavior they want me to slap him on meds. There answer to the questions were very much different then mine. So the doctor did not feel he had ADD. Now had I felt it was in his best interest to be on the meds I would have answered my part as if his behavior had a larger negative impact and wallah he would now be dosed to high heaven. It is all a case of amateurs playing doctors.
I my case all three opinions came from very highly recommended professionals. They each have a different bent to their specialization, but each are qualified to diagnose ADD, and not just from a simple questionnaire (I've seen the school versions).
My wife was running full throttle due to her issues with schooling from her childhood (more on that in my sitch). I beleive she was very consistent in her answers, she just kept fishing until she got the diagnosis she wanted (this also relates to her control issues).
And I'm not referring to amateurs playing doctor, but the doctors themselves. My point is that if there were a truly objective way of measuring these emotional and behavioral conditions, I think you would see a lot more consistency in the diagnosis. But there isn't, so they get to charge $100+/hour!
My point is that if there were a truly objective way of measuring these emotional and behavioral conditions, I think you would see a lot more consistency in the diagnosis. But there isn't
I agree with the outcome of your statement. But there is a more consistent way to measure this, Professional observation. Not a 2 hour doctors appointment/test but a extended stay observation. Unfortunately our society and level of medical care is dictated to by our health care providers. Who would rather pay for a $200.00 prescription then for a two week hosiptal stay for observation purposes.
I am not saying in anyway shape or mannor that doctors do not mis-diagnose or over diagnose. To say such would be a lie I have first hand knowledge that points other wise. I just have a problem with slapping labels on people and where it can lead to if they are incorrect. My youngest was diagnosed as being slightly Autistic. I wholeheartedly disagreed with it. I spent years trying to find out what was truely wronge with him. A year ago after I finally found a doctor who did not look to me for answers and untrained opinion of what was going on but did extensive testing he was diagnosed with GSD. A form of epilepsy in the brain. I searched for years for a answer to his problems. But with no preconcieved notion of what was wronge. If I would have just accepted the label of Autistic or thought I knew what it was I would have never found the real problem. And he would have suffered the rest of his life.
I do have a question for you. Did you take part in your childrens medical diagnosis? Or did you just allow your wife/doctor to slap a label on them which you did not agree with? You can answer this on your thread if you like.
I just saw a copy of the report from the first diagnosis (from 2000). This woman is an MD and basically stated our daughter’s problems stemmed from an over-anxious mom. So the search for a better diagnosis began. I was not aware of this testing until after the fact.
The next consultant is a nuero-psychologist, very highly recommended and known around here. He conducts an extensive battery of tests, costing over $4,000 per child. Luckily insurance picked that up. His conclusion on all 3 was no ADD (of significance). The eldest “does not have an ADD bone in her body.” But she does have other learning issues (I wouldn’t call them disabilities). My wife finally heard about non-verbal learning disability which can manifest like ADD but is more of a processing issue (some people are visual, some are auditory). This made sense to me as well and is what the therapist was seeing (just not explaining very well). But he saw no need for meds for ADD. He saw most of the kid’s problems as stress related due to our continual fighting, and in this way, meds could help. I was aware of these tests and did sit in on the summary presentation.
The third is a psychologist specializing in children with behavioral problems. His focus is to diagnose and dispense meds. In my opinion he operates a revolving door prescription warehouse. But he saw ADD in the kids (after a quick TOVA test), hit my wife’s happy button and has been dispensing meds since. There is no way for me to stop this other than get a divorce and obtain joint guardianship. Then any medication will require joint approval, so I can block it. But I am trying not to go there.
Furthermore, how would I know what within me to focus on? If there is something troubling me, I may not be aware of it, so how would I know to diagnose myself? Well, I assume you are not psychotic so you must have some sense of introspection going on. But I see your point, it helps to look at others situations and say, "hey, I'm kind of like that too." That's the great thing about this board. You CAN learn from other people's life experiences. It doesn't always mean you know how to diagnose the symptoms and then, effectively treat the core problem. Some people on this board focus on the SL at the exclusion of bigger issues (hate to pick on you CeMar but your name comes to mind). He will continue to beat his head against a wall in regards to his SL in the M because he is not willing to look at other issues, mainly within himself. His posts are sporadic and evasive, can't get a good handle on what is going on there. You tend to take an unemotional, clinical approach, while interesting and often insightful, it comes across harsh. You are obviously very intelligent but that should also include emotional intelligence. Maybe you need to work on you bedside (in this case boardside) manner
Sorry, Blackie, to hijack, but all THREE of your children are on ADD meds? My God that is so sad.
I am currently reading a book on ADD treatment because my 3 yo exhibits some weird tendencies that I don't know what to do with. True ADD and ADHD runs in H's family. These are people so affected by this that they have had a lifetime of interpersonal difficulties and school was hell. Still, out of the 3 people in his immediately family I would still only (if I were the doc) prescribe meds for his father. The other 2 are functional.
My intent in reading this book was not to get my daughter a head start on meds (the thought sickens me actually) but to try and come up with alternate ways of dealing with her than screaming and punishing. In her own way, she sets the tone for our entire family. I'd like to change this dynamic, if nothing else.
Anyway, I find it sad and disturbing that any mother would choose to medicate and dull her children's vibrant, individual personalities in favor of "managable" kids.
so you must have some sense of introspection going on. 