Hello piglet and sikan. Both of us are also depressed. I'm doing okay now thanks to paxil but my H is suffering bigtime. I have a copy of Depression Fallout and it's helpful.
Piglet, my H hates to be comforted. He wants me to leave him completely alone = do not speak to him for several days if need be. I'm great at the comforting part and he wants isolation. Isn't it odd how married people have to learn what the other person needs?
married 6 years, mom of 2 struggling to make a strong family
I had a good session with my DB coach last night, which came in handy for what was to come later on in the evening. I'll post the details later, on my thread.
It's interesting in my sitch because my H has depression and I've had problems with anxiety most of my life. Both come down to the two of us having poor life skills and just taking different approaches in dealing with what life has to hand us. I personally feel that whatever the methods are (depression or anxiety) it still comes down to core problems within self.
I'll start to post about how H and I handle our M and our separate personal work.
Core problems in self.. yep. I was a shining example of those core problems in myself last night. I backslid in a big way and am not sure how to recover. Yest was my bday. H was so sweet. Took S5 to order my cake, took the kids to buy presents, etc. When he got home from work he said he'd take me wherever I wanted to eat, and he did. Just overall, he put himself out for me, to make me happy. And, I let him know how much I appreciated it and how happy my bday was.
Then... ugh ugh ugh... we had to balance the check book, which is a major stressor for our R. He tends to "forget" some of his spending, and I tend to see the financial future bleaker than it actually is. We got through that with a few sharp comments, but it turned the tone of our day around. Then he said something about dancing..and I wish someone had duct taped my mouth shut!!!
M:Well, you know about dancing. H: I do? M: Yeah, from what I hear, you're all about that H: Huh? What do you hear.. from who? M: Yesterday when T stopped to see us, he told me about that night H: Oh, I thought that was in the past M: Well, it is, but I have an eye witness account that you were into it, not just friendly either H: It wasnt like that M: It wasnt? H: No. It was the worst mistake I've ever made. It wasnt me. I mean, how stupid can I be. Going there where all your friends live. I didnt even know what I was doing M: Well, he said you were plastered H: I was. It was stupid. I shouldnt have been there. It was the biggest mistake I've ever made
End of convo.. D came in. We went to the LR and watched TV for a little while.
H: You OK? M: Yeah, I'm fine H: You sure? M: Yes, Im sure! H: Well, I'll be able to stay up later tomm night (wink) M: Oh, you're going to bed right now? H: Yeah, I'm sorry I can't stay up later on your bday M: Well, now that you get up an hour later, you go to bed an hour earlier? H: Huh? I'll stay up then! Whats wrong with you? M: I'm fine, just go to bed and get some rest H: No, obviously something is wrong. What can I do to make it better? M: nothing. H: Nothing? What can I do? M: You already know what's wrong and what you can do to make it better, but I'm trying to be patient, so just let it go H: I'm trying. What do you want me to do? (asks me to come sit on his lap and I go. He tries to hug me, but I resist. This aggravates him.) H: What the H*ll is wrong with you? You had to go and get yourself all worked up and in a bad mood! M: Me? I didn't do this. You're the one who is dragging your feet on making things better. I've been patient, but 5 months later, you still work with her. You refuse to do what the MC says and get some kind of closure.. apologize. I bet you didnt even give Shelley the letter and book to give to her. You just refuse to get out of there or make it clear that your R was a mistake. H: No, that's not it. That's not it at all. I just need to call a few more places and see when they'll be hiring. I'll take that job offer if I have to, and I promise before the end of the week, I'll do what the MC said to do.
H got up and went to the computer and checked out some job websites and went to bed.
This morning isn't much better. I have so much doubt that has come out of nowhere. Paranoia??? Tired of him working with OW. And when I mentioned the book and letter this morning, he threw it in my face and said I was SUPPOSED to have forgiven him and am supposed to be trusting him right now. So, that left me steaming. Any time I bring up my feelings that are negative, he accuses me of not being patient, not forgiving, etc.
I guess you can see how I engineered our convos to create an argument concerning his job and OW. I can't figure out what I'm trying to prove with my actions. I KNOW it's not making things better. It's destroying progress that we've made and making H not trust me. But on the other hand, I think the more patient I am about the job and OW, the less he tries to get something accomplished. Im confused. I don't know why I want to go back to this negative convo again. The last week has been great. Maybe I just what what I want.. an effort to control him.. ugh.. I seriously need a time out to get my head on straight before I backslide even farther! I would not want to be with someone who says they'll be patient and forgive, but then starts the convo above, especially on their bday when I've went out of my way to show them how much I care about them. I guess there's no saving my from myself!
Happy belated Birthday! I know EXACTLY what you mean about being stuck between good DBing and making it too easy for your H.
I just got really down this morning because H is still maintaining online accounts that include OW but are not known to me. I admit that I had to snoop to find them.
Why is it that my H has these two separate lives it seems? I get really confused and think that although I see some really good results it might not be enough to get us over the hump of his "friendship".
My h has admitted that he has problems with secrecy. I need to find a way to address this before I agree to move back in with him. I hate that he won't or can't see that he continues to be secretive. I WILL NOT call him on his secretive actions! I am not his Mom!
Sometimes I think that our H's want us to call them on their bad behavior and then get angry at us when we do. I hate that cycle and I need to find a way to address it.
It seems like we are pretty much in the same boat. Do you want to compare notes and help each other with our strategies?
Thanks for the HB wish Sikan I read your post yesterday and have been thinking about it. That and the roller coaster of lies and secrecy that we're both on.
Like you, I see some really good results. And you say it right, that might not be enough to get us over that hump, but if there are postitive results in some areas, how can we generate positive results where they need to be? Mainly in our R, it's a matter of honesty. Lying is a deal breaker for me. And in response to the lies, I do the thing that most hurts my H, I get angry, call him on it, and tell him I don't want to be with a liar. I'm trying to figure out how our sitch is creating the atmosphere for those lies. When does he lie, and why does he lie? What is he getting from that behavior? He admits the problem at least, so that's a start. It's a catch 22 of bad habits with us maybe too. Michelle says to stop doing the things we've always done that don't work. Then we hit a trigger and we go back to dealing with out problems in the same old ways.
The latest sitch with us: Job change (of course!) My feelings: I hate it that he works with her and they have contact. From day one, I've said it will be very hard for me to trust and move on as long as they work together. That's the reality. No matter how patient I am, how much I zip my lips, at the very core of things - I will have a problem in our R until he finds another job. Its one of those humps. I have a right to that.. H came home knowing that and promising that we'd work that out quickly. I also hate it that their R ended and had nothing to do with me. They just ended it for their own reasons. It might be silly that I feel that way - a result of my insecurities, but I have a need for her to hear that their R was a mistake, that my H loves me, and that what they had meant nothing to him. Right or wrong, again, that's how I feel. We have to deal with that. I either have to accept the way things are, or he is going to have to tell her that. I think if he wasn't working with her, then my insecurities would be so much better and I'd get over the fact that he didn't reject her for me. I felt so much like he rejected me to continue the friendship, but now that he's home working on things, I see that he's committed to me. Whatever they had doesn't matter, or he'd be with her. But then, with the lack of trust, I sometimes believe they are still talking and he's still on a fence but pretending with me. See the problem? As long as he works there, I'll be in a continuous cycle of doubt and distrust. Because, he told me the first time he came home that it was over and that was a lie. Things are so much better now, but there are days when I remember that lie and doubt. And, I'm sure he thinks my feelings are unfair to him. He tries to show me he loves me, but no matter what he does that's good, it all comes back to his job. I'm sure it's frustrating for him, and he thinks Im stubborn. He said last night that even if he took that job, I'd find a problem with it too. So, from his perspective, he can't win and make me happy right now. I'm sure he thinks no matter what he does, he is going to be made to pay for his past mistake. ugh..
Michele also says that one of the things that can be a prob is us needing to know the change is permanent. And she asks how long do things have to be going good before we start to believe this is how the R is, and the bad days are just that, a bad day along the way. Oh gosh... for me, how long. That is such a hard thing to say because of our history. We were reconciled for 4 years and I thought the past was the past, and here we are again. We've fixed a lot, but it's going to take fixing the lying and secrecy for me to get to a place where I'm sure we can work this out long-term. How long without lies and secrecy? hmmm... six months probably and I'd start to trust again. Six months of very honest and open communication. We're not there yet. Compound all this with me not wanting to be a doormat (pride), and the closer it gets to the six month mark that I've been dealing with the pain of knowing he sees her at work, well, I don't want to deal with this forever.. it's like he came home and I'm going to allow him to create a painful sitch for me indefinately.. and I'm going to love him and meet his needs no matter if he meets mine or not.
On with the sitch the last couple of days. I've asked H not to build me up with words and promises. I told him that I'll know how things are going by his actions. But, he uses those words and promises to create a false sense of progress and security for us. Example: He told me that he'd take the first job he was offered, the second it was offered because he hates hurting me by working with OW. He also told me that he'd drive 88 miles each way to work in order for us to move on and start working on the other issues in our R. He loves me just that much! OK, I've posted before that I don't think this is a good job for him to take, but won't tell him that because I'm afraid he'll throw it back at me like "well, I had a job offer, but you didnt want me to take it, so you'll just have to be patient" Which might be true, but it doesn't solve the problem I have and my inability to move on when he's working with her. I could try to be patient, and try to move on, but that's not happening. I'd be lying. It's been 5 months.. pretty patient, we're making progress, but it's still an issue, will always be.
Last night we had an argument. I called him on the lies about taking the first job he's offered, and being willing to drive 88 miles. He's pacifying me by saying another job will be available closer by the end of the month, first week in Oct. Now, given that he lied about his willingness, to "do whatever it takes", is it true that another job is just around the corner, or is he saying that once again to pacify me and keep me happy and patient? He also failed to mention in our discussion about whether he should take this job, that in 6 months, they would require him to move within 30 mins of the job. He said he wanted my help making the decision, but he didn't supply me with all the info. Why? I found out this morning. Because if it came to a point where I wasn't able to wait any longer (called our R off because he's still working with her), he wanted the option of taking that job and he knew I wouldnt "allow him to" (his words) if I knew there was a six month time limit. It would throw him into a place where we'd move (we can't) or he'd lose his job. DOH?! We have 4 kids! He left out an important detail (and lied) to manipulate my opinion of the job so that HE could make the decision that suits HIM... his needs... which are for me to let this go and move on. Very irresponsible for him to put his family in that sitch. Granted, he's between a rock and a hard place here. Having trouble finding a job, but then he's only really been making an effort for the last month and doesn't want to be responsible for the fact that he's dragged his feet in finding a new job. He also has a lot of rules on what the new job has to be. So here we are. My anger and inability to just let this go is putting him in a sitch where he lies to get the results he wants. Which is for us to let this go, move on and him to stop feeling pressured regardless if he finds another job or not.
He has another choice and he doesnt like it either. For us to not jump right back into the R and just work on waiting this out. Live together, be friends, take care of the kids, GAL, agree that we can work on trust and intimacy when we're in a place where it can grow. He wants that NOW.. well, so do I. But I can't give that to him right now. I can't trust him and be close to him when he has contact with OW. So why can't he be the one to be patient right now, and accept that this is where we are until he can find the right job, at the right salary, in the right place? I'm not talking about making his life a living hell. I'm just suggesting that I be given respect and the choice to protect my heart and feelings while I have doubts and am not SEEING the results that I need to see in order for us to work out our problems. He has secrets and lies to me because he wants what he wants and he wants it now. If he told me the truth about everything then he might have to deal with my feelings about the truth. For me, it's like being held hostage. I don't even know what my R with my H really looks like because it's built on so many things that might not be true. When he lies.. even one lie, it calls everything he's told me into question. When he lies and makes me believe that things are better than they are, it puts me in a better place. It makes me feel like I might want to re-marry him, and then two days later I find out that he's lied and I don't want to be married to him. Then here, I've lied to him because my reality was screwed up and i'm confused. I want to move on too.. I understand my H's need to get past this... I have the same need. He lies, I believe. I choose to believe because it's easy sometimes, and like my H, I'm tired of this roller coaster too. I lie to myself that things are moving forward and then eventually I have to admit to myself that I have a problem with what hasnt changed. It's hard for me to admit that because I feel like I should be the kind of person to just let this go and not worry about him working with her. I want to please him and be patient. I want to give him what he wants. He wants to give me what I want. But the truth is, it's going to take time on both of our parts. Time for him to find a job. Time for me to trust again. Time for him to trust me with the truth. And time for me to learn how to respond when the truth is something I don't want to hear. We can either break the cycle, or it can break us. It's not an issue of love, committment, or desire for us to please each other. It's an issue of breaking patterns that don't work and admitting to what our problems are. It's an issue of understanding each other and helping each other to work out our faults instead of wanting to blame, be right, or just ignore that we aren't perfect.
You are so right about the cycle and our H's wanting to call them on their bad behavior. My H has admitted to that. How do we break that cycle? By refusing to be responsible for their problems? By being available for honest communication, but ignoring when they are not taking responsibility? I think I need to stop giving my H the results he wants until he shows me that things are really changing. I need to stop being weak and realize that I'm contributing to the problem by giving him good results when he fills my head up with flowery words that by now, I've learned are BS. I need to take responsibilty for my need to believe him and trust without proof. He is like the pied piper for me! I let him lead me to a fantasy that I know is not true. I need to take responsibility for the fact that I cant/wont trust right now and that pretending isnt going to work. Yes, in the end, we might not continue our R because we can't work it out, but I have to face that possibility and take responsibility for my part of that. He might decide that he doesn't want to be with someone who thinks they can dictate where he works, or who he works with. He sees their R as insignificant and might think my feelings are unreasonable.. because he came home and is committed to me. he might think that's enough and reject me if I push too much.
So, my strategy right now is to admit that I can't move forward until he changes jobs. If we're going to be together, we're both going to have to agree to be in limbo until he decides to do that. He's going to have to agree that it's OK with him that he's living with someone who doesn't really want to work on intimacy right now. I need distance emotionally until I feel safe. If he doesn't want to wait for me to give more, he might decide to get out of the R. It's the chance I take when I choose not to trust him right now and work on being closer. I've told him that I can't be close to him when he works with her and is lying to me. Those are boundaries I have because living outside of those boundaries hurts me and makes me feel insecure. I want our R to be a safe place, but it's not right now. I have to accept that. I have to accept that he can't give me that right now (whatever the reason), but I have to stick with those boundaries or I'm choosing to hurt and disrespect my own needs. I guess we're going to have to work on baby steps to being close friends, work on trusting each other with the truth, being here for each other and understanding each other before we can move towards having an intimate R. It's like a war zone when we try to force a R we cant have right now.
Long long rambling post I know. I'm trying to work through some stuff. I'll let H read it later and see what he thinks. I love him.. I really do. I have a lot to learn about having a healthy M and it's going to take awhile!
Where are we? I've done a lot of thinking about our R over the years. And what I know is that I can't have a successful R with someone who us unfaithful and lies to me. I also can't have a R with someone who doesn't take responsibility for themselves and tries to make me their mother. Or someone who won't plan for a good financial future and work on that. These are three basic needs of mine. Honesty, responsibility, financial security.
No matter how much love is present, I'll always make an issue about those needs not being met by my partner. I'll be unhappy. So for now, I'm left figuring out how I may be creating a sitch where H wont/cant give those things. I need to take responsibility for myself right now while we decide if we can make it work together. That's not a given in my mind at the moment. If H cant be faithful, honest, responsible, and financially dependable, it just won't work. I have to admit that so that we can either deal with the issues or let go.
So for now I have to work on being a person that others trust with the truth. It means I have to be a better listener and try to understand where the other person is coming from. I need to be understanding and supportive of the other persons problems and situation. Not think so much of how it affects me. I need to take responsibility of my own financial situation, and let H deal with his finances. Not sure how to do this since we're in it together. And I need to back off and not mother him. Allow him to worry about his problems. Allow him to worry about whether or not he's doing his part to make our R work. Let him ask what I need instead of telling him all the time. If he cares, he'll ask. It's his choice to meet my needs or not. Regardless of his decision, I'm a good, loveable person. I'm responsible for my own happiness. I can be happy with or without a R. I let our R bring me down when I really have a good life. Great kids, a great job, wonderful friends, a supportive church family. I have so much that's good in my life, I'm going to stop letting H drag me into a bad place. I am so tired of being on this yoyo that I have no control over. I have to get off it for my own sanity. My life is good as it is.. I'm good as I am.. a good R with H is just icing on the cake. A bad R with H is not going to destroy me. It'll create problems, and the kids will be hurt.. but I can only control my half of our R. I'm stopping right now in being someone I'm not in order to make this R work. I'm going to ignore the things he uses to manipulate my feelings and start looking at reality. It's a gift I'm giving to myself. Im going to live our R as it is, and not how he says it is. Im going to accept the love and friendship he gives me with open arms, but I'm not going to give credit for progress that hasnt been made. Right now, we're just friends. We can't know if it will work out until we see if we can communicate and solve our problems. Until we have honesty, that won't happen. I'm not going to start any discussions about our R, or feelings. For the next month, I'm taking a break.. a time out. Im going to work on me and my sitch.. my feelings.. my reality. I'm going to work on the things I need to change and not worry about this R or what H is doing. I have carried this relationship emotionally and financiall for years. Today, I'm letting go for a month. To concentrate on me, my kids, my friends, my job, my church. Deal with my healing, my future, my spirituality. It might be a good break for us. A time out. H might be relieved, or it might frighten him. Whatever his feelings.. I'll be supportive and understanding, but for now, I need a break from this. A cooling off period so that we both can think and evaluate what we want for the future. Then at some point we can discuss it and see where we stand.
Piglet! Have you been listening in on my phone conversations?
I've had to step back - emotionally speaking - from my M as well. H in the abyss of depression/anxiety/paranoia and too far out of my reach. I'm not moving out, but I'm taking a break from the emotional roller coaster ride.
I decided a few days ago that when he began to blow, I was going to take the kids and go elsewhere for a few hours. I'm not thrilled about being run out of the house, but I can't very well ask my raging H to go for a drive. I'm not behaving in an ugly way, but my plan is to insulate myself and the kids from the worst of his actions.
married 6 years, mom of 2 struggling to make a strong family
Amen sister Here's to OUR sanity for a change! H just came home and is not happy. I basically told him that I'm taking a time out and will only rely on his actions to determine where he is. I told him that I don't know whether I want this relationship or not. What my needs are and that Im not going to beg him to change any longer. He can row his boat, and I'll row mine. No arguments, no R discussions, no verbal manipulation. Just friends with a possibility of a future together if we happen to share the same values and goals. Rocked his boat a little and I'm sure he'll work double time on the verbal reassurances that he's going to change, but it's gonna bounce off like a rubber ball. If he wants our R, he'll show me. If not, then I'll be ahead of the game in getting on with a life without him.
Good luck PM!!! We have to love ourselves first, especially if they aren't willing and able!
My H has been behaving a little better today. He actually made a comment about his cube-mate obsessing over the rising price of gasoline. I thought it was interesting that he was unhappy with someone at work who is "stuck" in a negative thinking loop. I bit my tongue though, because we were having a pleasant afternoon.
married 6 years, mom of 2 struggling to make a strong family
Love is an action word.. you got it! Have had this discussion a zillion times in MC and H still thinks its feelings and intentions that count!
I've GOT TO STOP LETTING HIM PUSH MY BUTTONS!! And, I've got to stop giving him ammo.. crap. No wonder we continue in this vicous cycle. I KNOW his biggest fear is that I'll leave.. it's also my weapon. I realize that, yet I continue to unload that weapon and watch him saddle up for the fight. Ugh... he pushes buttons until I rage about his need to change, and then he goes into lecture mode on how he knows he's hurt me, knows he needs to change, knows he needs to be honest, knows he needs to try harder, he loves me so much and would never hurt me.. blah, blah, blah. He's purged his guilt, made his promises, and shut me up and tommorow things will just be spiffy because it's a new leaf for him. I think that's one of his needs.. he knows he's screwing up his life with his actions, but isn't strong enough to take responsibility for it. Then Mommy scolds him and he's been suffienciently punished.
If I don't break this cycle it'll never stop. So I need to evaluate what doesn't work. DBing and being positive just makes him think we're on the right track and he tries less to deal with the big issues.. like his dishonesty. I think my plan to stop giving him the results he wants until he can get it together is a good one. It's going to take a huge amount of patience on my part though to back off and let this go. I want so much to believe him, but I just can't right now. I mean, he knows lying is a big deal and he knows he continues to lie and decieve me. A few positives after the blow-up though. He said that he knows he needs more psychiatric help than he's getting. he sees his psych once every month or two months. I told him that I think he's a pathological liar.. I feel horrible about that. But a part of me thinks that's true too. If he just lied to me, it would be different, but he lives a life of deception. At least he admits that he hides the truth and says he wants to change. I cant do this for him though. And, I can't be on that roller coaster believing everything he says just to find out later it was BS.
Lovingly distance myself...ignore what he says.. look at what he does. Validate the positive ACTIONS. Praise him when he does bring the truth to me. Not give him any signs of progress when he just talks up what he intends to do. I think if the lies don't work the way they always have, but he gets good results from the truth and actually following through on his promises, maybe he'll get a clue.
This is going to be hard, hard, hard. He follows me around wanting to have a R talk, and when I resist, he tells me how much he loves me, how much he wants to be honest.. same blah, blah. I need to get some steel armor and let it just bounce off! NO R TALKS, unless it's about actions, not about promises! Someone please pray that I can be pleasant, supportive and zip my lips.
I know it seems a shame, some here just want their WAS to come home and be willing to work it out. But when they come home, and just give it lip service, it's maddening. It's pure hell to live with someone who won't take responsibility for themselves and their actions. When he didn't live with us he told the MC that he didn't want to come home because he thought knowing he couldnt until he changed would motivate him to change. I wonder if I've done a bad thing by allowing him to move back before he made changes. Now I fear that he's comfy and unmotivated again. He was near suicidal before he came back home, so I know he's making mental progress, but his behavorial issues need to be addressed. Not for me even, just for him. I'm faced with a man who will never be self-supporting and responsible unless he changes. I mean, if I ask him to leave, it will be the same thing all over... he'll spiral into that black pit again. I still feel like a hostage.. he can't support himself financially, and I couldn't let my kids Dad end up there again. Yet, I don't see changes in his behavior and a big part of me thinks He's just here for the financial support.. period. Survival.
I read your post yesterday and have been thinking about it. That and the roller coaster of lies and secrecy that we're both on. 
I may need to borrow your phrase.