We're working on the disparity. Sometimes, it shows up as an argument in which I won't back down (as I always used to do) or me just responding to her with the same sort of tone of voice she is using on me, then pointing that out to her.
My refusing to act like a victim has gone a long way toward me feeling less like a victim, and to her seeing me as a stronger man.
Sure, it's not getting me any action yet in the bedroom, but that will happen.
As for her telling me that asking her if she wants to ML isn't going to work, I just want to tell her (and I will) that she needs to work on thinking and saying "maybe" instead of "no."
As Gel pointed out I was misconstruing the meaning of the words always having to push for sex and continually and other words of like. When I see those words I see a person who literally chases there spouse around daily trying to get some. hence my 20 times in 30 day example I posted earlier. If you attempt to arouse your wife or try to have sex 2 times a week or less from my point of view that is not badgering or bothering or unreasonable. Now if your wife looks forward to having her period just so she can have a few days off from your constaint attempts for sex you are in overkill mode. I could then see your wife feeling bothered, badgered and harrased. And this is where I lie in the sitch I myself look forward to my period for that break have at times extended my use of kotex to have a few days extra in the break.So that is where my answer came from with the words I was picking up as key words.
But even as a LD myself in the relationship I will tell you I feel a person even LD/ND that does not atleast have sex with there spouse on occassion to satisfy them is a very selfish person. And also I feel decitful. Because the physical body requires release even a LD persons after so long. If she is not doing this with you she is doing this without you via sexual dreams or masturbation possibly. That is my opinion not proven fact. But as a LD myself I have been in down times ie no relationship and when I was leaving last year I did not have sex with my H for four months. On occassion I felt urges I either had to choose to override and ignore or take care of myself. If I choose to ignore them within days I would wake up and find it evident my body choose to take care of it on its own. So I am again basing my opinion on my experiences. But I do not own oneness in much of life so I doubt I do in this either.
And your comments are not dramatic from where I sit if my H had not had sex in 1.6 years hummm he would be one miserable MF to live with or be around period. The fact you can make some humor of it still is great. What is it that Lou says sometimes you have to joke about it to not cry about it.
I applaud you in your efferts to keep trying with your wife. I sometimes don't understand why anyone would put all the effert into a totally sexless marriage. Or why they do not have countless meaningless affairs since it is apparent that there spouse does not really care about there happiness. And I am talking about totally sexless marriages no sex or sex 3 times in 5 years type marriages not marriages where sex is one to two times a month. Nopkins or Mrs Nop have a saying about affairs coming from a feeling of entitlement they do not own. Some times this also can apply to totally selfish person they are taking a entitlement that they do not own. And for those of you who continue to stand beside them and hope one day they notice you I applaud you. Even though I know I would be to shallow to do so myself.
Hairdog said: "My refusing to act like a victim has gone a long way toward me feeling less like a victim, and to her seeing me as a stronger man."
Exactly. Doesn't it come down to the fact that we teach people how to treat us?
Even if it is subconscious, I don't think women respect men who let a woman call all the shots, whether in the bedroom or not.
Men probably feel the same way about women.
We all have created these relationship "monsters". Some of us are also enabling this behavior to continue.
I feel like I am really starting to get a handle on this in my own M. H knows what I expect and vice versa. We are no longer willing to compromise.
Of course, both people need to be on the same page in order for this to work. Not sure if there is anything you can do to "make" your spouse engage in the process but standing up for yourself not only makes you feel better about yourself but gains your spouses respect at the same time.
I've been guilty of the continual thing in the past. But although I do see the LD side of it, I'm not sure you see the HD side yet.
Rather than looking at percentages, like the one in twenty, how about looking at frequency. Let's say that your S was willing, on the average, once every six weeks. It's not every six weeks, but an average of every six weeks. It might be six weeks, but it might just as well be twice in one week, but then nothing for another twelve weeks. Then let's complicate it a little further by throwing in the fact that your S won't tell you when those times are and won't initiate. And yes, I did live with this.
So as the HD, what do you do? Knowing that you'll only be successful and average of once every six weeks, do you only try once every six weeks? In that case, you'll only have a one in forty-two chance of hitting the right day to try. Every three weeks improves your odds of hitting "the" day to one in twenty-one. Once a week ups it to one in seven. Every other day makes it one in two, and every days makes it a certainty.
BUT, what I've left out of the equation is that the more you try, the more your S gets irritated and the less likely your S is to do it. So the very thing that increases your chances of trying on that magical day when your S is willing, also has the side effect of increasing the chances that your S will be too irritated with you to do it anyway. So it ends up looking like a lose-lose proposition. If you don't try, you'll miss the opportunity. But if you do try, you'll piss them off and there won't be an opportunity to miss.
Such is the HD conundrum. And I would venture a guess that a lot of HDs opt to risk irritating their S rather than risk missing one of those golden days when all the planets align and when they actually have a chance.
Just curious as to what you consider loosly scheduled sex? I set a minimum of 8 times a month a year ago which I have made sure I stick to. But we have no certain dates. No saturday is date nights sex night or what ever it could be called. Would you consider this loosly scheduled sex.
Ld partners more 'consent' into ML than 'go with the flow'
For me it is a mix of both. I sometimes only consent to it because I want to give my H what he wants. But other times I am not in that mind frame If he gets the current flowing strong enough it is no longer just about trying to fufill his wants and needs. I can take on some of my own. This usually only happens after I have had a few day break from his constent attempts to have sex. (Again in constent I am talking almost daily). I am allowed a little space to breath and the overwhelmed feeling ebbs away enough to allow me to respond.
Trust me that I am more than aware of the times when she SURE will not be in the mood. I won't even try in those moments
Then you are affording your spouse a respect that I am not given. So this does not apply to you.
You are not talking to people who get sex daily and pout when they have a day without
I have sex with my H on the average of twice a week and he still does the pity noise and self pity act anytime I do not conseed to sex. My H is not alone in this there are HD people that get sex just as frequently as my H does so I doubt he is the only one that reacts in this mannor either. I sometimes feel that my H does not appriciate the effort I put into satisfing his needs and he is showing disrespect of my efforts by this behavior. I am sure others here spouses that are trying to atleast meet some of there spouses needs may also feel this way. Though I am aware to meet all my H needs I would have to have sex daily and most time twice so I do not satisfy all of them but I am comprimising to meet some and I do not feel being disrespected for doing so is going to lead me to a place where I want to do this for long again I am sure I do not own oneness in that feeling.
However, you also have to honestly ask yourself how often you have used any of the reasons you mentioned for not being in the mood as an easy excuse?
Honestly maybe a few times but since I cannot get him to not try to have sex after I have spent 3 hours barfing into a toliet or have had to go to the doctors for shots. It really would be fruitless to try to fake it the results would still be the same. I will admit that if it is time for my monthly my H does not pursue sex as much as he does at other times of the month and if by chance he has not started up again by the 4th day even if I have finished I will extend my use of kotex for a day just to extend my break. But this usually only works for a extra day two if I am lucky.
Feeling deprived, we end up wanting it each and every day, as most days are 'another day without ML'. Withold food from someone for a week, and I can assure you he'll be hungry each and every day
I agree with this whole heartedly I posted on another thread once a referrence to a traveler who had not eaten in weeks and how once he was so starved that all he could think about and talk about was food. But once he had started eatting meals on a regular basis and knew he would have another meal soon the amount of food he eat each meal decreased. I was speaking in terms of how the few LD people here on the board became HD and now the spouse seems to be LD. But it holds true I do understand this concept in the large of it but it also holds true that some people never are satified with knowing they just ate and will eat again soon so remain glutenous at every meal.
Who other then yourself expects you to push for it all the time? It is your wants that push you no one elses?
You are correct in what the point was in HD post I answered that very encouragingly because I thought that this was atleast a baby step on his wifes part my response was based on what Gremlin said not HD and my interpretation of what he was saying.
In my experience, most of the times it's the LD partner who keeps count. My W has on some occasions sais stuff like 'But we already did it last wednesday!'. What does it matter (I mean from her POV) if we had sex the previous day, 3 days before that or over a week ago? I guess for her it matters, while in my opinion that isn't exactly 'going with the flow'. Sounds more like the LD partner is the one in control, designs the 'dosage' and keeps count so as to not exceed some imaginery irrelevant 'frequency'
This is the only comment you made I do not agree with in any way. First any one of us that work on a schedule loose or planned is not going with the flow. There is a criteria set that is what makes it a schedule. What does it matter if you had sex the day before the previous three days. It matters to the LD that is putting in a effort to alteast compromise and meet your needs at some level. It is like telling them it is not good enough. That there efforts are in vain and unappriciated. I myself am at a point that I feel defeated by this very thing. That no matter how hard I try it will never be good enough. Because my H does not understand why it matters has lead me here and I am to the point I feel if I cannot ever satify him why keep trying. Sounds more like the LD partner is the one in control, designs the 'dosage' and keeps count so as to not exceed some imaginery irrelevant 'frequency' I see this comment alot how the LD has all the control. In the cases where the LD does not atleast try this may be true. But as a LD that does try it is the farthest from the truth. If it was completely in my control since I do not crave sex regularly I would not be having it regularly my H and his need for sex controls my having sex to a large degree. I do not get to choose if I want to satisfy his needs I have to have sex there is no control there. there is loose of control. Any of us that are compromising have given up some control of our sex life regaurdless if we are LD or HD. Compromise means give and take. If my H wants sex 4 times a week and I want it 1 time a month but have it 2 times a week we both have compromised. Through the comprimise neither of us are really getting exactly what we want we both are still doing without something. But that is what compromise is all about. In my situation what lacks in the compromise is simply this I am satisfied with the comprimise it is what I agreed to it was important to me to meet not all my H and his needs but some my H though it is what he agreed to is not satisfied with it. H wants all his needs meet regaurdless of the cost to me. That is not a compromise that is a dictatorship. I came from a unselfish place to try to meet his needs that I do not share in when I made this compromise. He came into the compromise from a selfish place only caring that his needs are met by his not being satisfied with what he said would satisfy him shows this.
And if the frequency was irrelavent no one would be here complaining about lack of sex would they?
(This is such an active thread, and I am such a slow and methodical poster, that every time I post I discover that several additional posts have happened while I was composing my own which "crossed in the mail". So if it sounds like I'm not responding to recent posts, I probably haven't read them yet)
Hairdog, I think your statement that your W needs to work on thinking and saying "maybe" instead of "no" is good. She needs to think about not closing the door on you. And on herself as well.
I also agree with MrsNOP's statement that for the time being you should take your W's comment that you shouldn't ask at face value. However, I agree with MrsNOP's other comments about the need for reciprocity. If your W wants you to inititiate nonverbally, then it's important that she respond to your efforts with positive reinforcement - caresses of her own or even comments like "that feels good" (but perhaps, in addition to not wanting you to talk, she doesn't want to talk either).
In my own case, a stumbling block has sometimes been being asked "do you want to ML?" because out of the blue, I seldom "want", and I've never been into false statements or faking feelings. "Maybe" is one response. Perhaps asking "I want us to ML - when can we do it?" might be another question.
Nor would I ever ask my H "do you want to wash the dishes?" because I know he seldom "wants" to do it and, in fact, hardly ever even gets close enough to the sink to notice on his own that dishes need doing. However, if I ask him more directly, "I would like you to do the dishes before [FITB]", he will more often than not respond positively. In so doing, I have to get over the hump of feelings like: he should notice that they need doing on his own; I shouldn't have to ask; he should "want" to do them because they need doing and because he knows it will help and please me. The fact is, he is LD and I am HD when it comes to dishes. I need to ask if he will do them, but not if he "wants" to do them. This is where direct communication is important.
But of course, ML is a more sensitive topic than dishes and requires 2 people to interact and both give and receive pleasure so the analogy is imperfect.
Talking about the bottom line frequency of the HD spouse and scheduling sex are two important things I have gotten from this BB. My H doesn't want to live in a sexless marriage and in a basic way, neither do I (though the forms of sex we most want aren't always identical - O is definitely more important to my H than to me; lots of cuddling is more important to me - part of that may also be due to the fact that trying to O sometimes puts performance pressure on me. A good R is important to both of us).
Anyway, knowing that my H wants sex at least once, preferably twice, per week and that we now often plan or "schedule" it, is very helpful to me in knowing what to aim for and expect. Usually now, it's no longer a question of whether I "want" it (but of course my H expects and I do give positive feedback - once we start, I don't just lay there like a log) but a question of deciding when we will do it.
Even so, I know that it is still the case that my H would also like more out-of-the-blue spontaneous "I want you" from me. In a weird sort of way, the fact that my H is now experiencing ED has leveled the playing field in some ways. Due to either fear of ED or perhaps due to some loss of libido from new BP or prostate meds he's taking, he now initiates less often, which gives me more opportunities to initiate first.
[But I wouldn't wish this sitch on anyone as a solution to the HD/LD disparity. It is enormously painful and depressing for my H. But to add an antidepressant to the mix might be the end of sex altogether for him! In 2 weeks he has a long awaited appointment to be checked out thoroughly by a physician specializing in men's sexual health.]
One further thought that Hairdog's post made me think of. In the past I have often found it more arousing to be with my H in a situation where sex is unlikely or impossible to happen. I'm not sure I understand why, but holding hands while walking through an art exhibit or cuddling in a movie theatre can be very arousing to me. But, one problem sometimes has then been that those feelings are lost when we get home: We listen to the messages on the answering machine; I check my email and spend too long at it; I gripe about dishes H left in the sink or newspapers on the sofa; H watches the late news on TV; our semi-adult kid living in a timezone 3 hours earlier calls on the phone. And then it's as if the earlier cuddling never happened.
How to get around this? More communication and more structure. Some of those mundane things should be limited to other hours of the day. Much as we love our 2 semi-adult kids, we need to make it clear they shouldn't call after a certain hour unless it's an emergency. And I am resisting the temptation to get sucked into email (or this BB) late at night. And I am learning to ask H to wash dishes more often but also learning to ignore them and not get resentful when we really should just focus on each other. And making a clear decision ahead of time that when we get home we will "do it" makes it easier to stay on track.
Counselling is helping us communicate better. I should post on my own thread some of the results of that.
DogLover
Quote: Thanks, MrsNop and doglover.
We're working on the disparity. Sometimes, it shows up as an argument in which I won't back down (as I always used to do) or me just responding to her with the same sort of tone of voice she is using on me, then pointing that out to her.
My refusing to act like a victim has gone a long way toward me feeling less like a victim, and to her seeing me as a stronger man.
Sure, it's not getting me any action yet in the bedroom, but that will happen.
As for her telling me that asking her if she wants to ML isn't going to work, I just want to tell her (and I will) that she needs to work on thinking and saying "maybe" instead of "no."
Hairdog
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
I like that you actually worked that out to be accurate. And yes I do seem to go from logic instead of emotions at time. I am working on that as we all know.
I do understand believe me I do. I understand from both sides of the fence. I am LD in this relationship I am not truely LD though so it does help me understand what a HD is saying to some degree.
BUT, what I've left out of the equation is that the more you try, the more your S gets irritated and the less likely your S is to do it. So the very thing that increases your chances of trying on that magical day when your S is willing, also has the side effect of increasing the chances that your S will be too irritated with you to do it anyway
This is exactly what I was trying to state with my 20 times in 30 day vs 15 times in 30 day attempt at sex. Though you are fighting your frustration and looking for that magical day of star alignment you maybe screwing yourself out of some of those days to say it bluntly. The pure irration you are causing by your efforts maybe standing in your way of achieving your goal. If you have poison ivy and you scratch it continously it is going to spread though this is not what your goal is. You just want some relief from the itching. But if you don't scratch it as often as you would like to relieve the itch it the poison ivy does not remain as irratated and has a chance to heal a little and not spead to all parts of your body. ie the irration and resentment of constant attempts/failure does not spread into other aspects of your marriage. So from the logical side it looks as if to reach your goal you should not scratch as hard. But from the emotional side we know that is not all that easy because the itch can become overwhelming.
Just from me and my perspective I say this. If I had sex with H today and later today he tried again he would most likely be told no. If he waitted another day or so before he attempted to have sex I would be more likely to have sex. But if after my no he kept attempting to have sex or be sexual ie groppy hands rubbing of lower abdomin or upper thighs I am going to get irratated and it is going to grow with every attempt he makes. I may finally give in to get him off my back (which would not work but) But the irration will still be growing until I get into lock down mode. Irrated to the point that my thighs will be glued shut. My H could avoid this by backing off a little inbetween attempts or sexual encounters. But he does not so he sabatoges his own efferts in the process. I am only trying to bring that side to the table here in the post I respond to. For every feeling of frustration and irration and feeling of being deprived of something that is important to you as a HD the LD has a form of also. Every time a HD says that a LD just does not get it does not understand cannot imagine what they are putting you through and what you sacrifice out of love and want for them there maybe simular thoughts running through the LDs head. Not all LDs try to meet there spouses needs I know that. But not all HDs try to meet there spouses needs either.
Such is the HD conundrum. And I would venture a guess that a lot of HDs opt to risk irritating their S rather than risk missing one of those golden days when all the planets align and when they actually have a chance.
I understand this though I stand to loose more money then I ever win I still invest in lottery tickets. Knowing I am just wasting my time and money on the purchase but dreaming of the big payoff.
By the way a coin has three sides but one just runs a continuous circle I think that is the side most of us are on.
RE Chrissy I set a minimum of 8 times a month a year ago which I have made sure I stick to. But we have no certain dates. No saturday is date nights sex night or what ever it could be called. Would you consider this loosly scheduled sex.
Chrissy, you did not ask me but here is my opinion. That would make me so happy. Any day of the week is fine. I am sure a lot of us "going with out most of the time" posters share my feelings.
H wants all his needs meet regaurdless of the cost to me. That is not a compromise that is a dictatorship Chrissy, I am sorry you are in that position. Would your H listen to anyone if they told him he was lucky and would he listen to anyone so he could experience how you are feeling about the frequency/desire differences.
Eventhough some of us guys/gals only get lucky once a month, I am sure we know how you feel and visualise "if" we were in a gender appropriate R with you, we would give you time without asking or hinting about sex. We do it with our spouses even at our own expense. Maybe there is something to the saying "nice people finish last."
I set a minimum of 8 times a month a year ago which I have made sure I stick to. But we have no certain dates. No saturday is date nights sex night or what ever it could be called. Would you consider this loosly scheduled sex. Yes. And see my earlier comments about "Can we ML when we get home?" I also noticed you latter comments on the "want" part, and I think in that respect (unknowingly), I phrased it in a way that my W could more easily deal with.
I have sex with my H on the average of twice a week and he still does the pity noise and self pity act anytime I do not conseed to sex. My H is not alone in this there are HD people that get sex just as frequently as my H does so I doubt he is the only one that reacts in this mannor either. Well, I think this is an issue where I can easily see how he creates a problem of his own. If he agrees that he can be happy with a schedule of twice a week, and then in real life, pouts and complains he's only getting twice a week, he obviously does not stick to the agreement. I would allow for 'some' pouting now and then, being disappointed when you're horny and were hoping for some LM is a natural process, but he shouldn't act like a drama queen and get all self pity and [censored]. If he can't be happy with twice a week, then you both sure need to renogiate and talk about that, and he will have to realize that his 'ultimate ideal' is impossible.
What does it matter if you had sex the day before the previous three days. It matters to the LD that is putting in a effort to alteast compromise and meet your needs at some level. Well, on the other hand, some times my W and I ML on like a saturday AND the next sunday. As I wasn't expecting much, it felt especially good and as my wife trying to put in an extra effort to make me feel loved and happy. It also makes me less 'wanting' or deprived, so in effect, it made it easier for me to get a longer period without any sex. My point is that to my W, if we had sex, then most times this means there will be a "no sex" period, EVEN if she feels into ML the next day. This is what she has told me, that she would be into it, but can't because we ML the day before. I think it's part of the self-conditioning, some keeping count where the count itself becomes more important that her willigness to ML.
It is like telling them it is not good enough. That there efforts are in vain and unappriciated. I myself am at a point that I feel defeated by this very thing. That no matter how hard I try it will never be good enough. This is an emotion I can fully sympathize with. Trouble is that like the hurt, anger and frustration from the HD partner, there is little the LD partner can do about these feelings, even if they are fully aware of them. I'd be rich and famous if I had the answer or the solution to this dillema. (and more happy. )
I see this comment alot how the LD has all the control. In the cases where the LD does not atleast try this may be true. But as a LD that does try it is the farthest from the truth. I have respect for your willingness to compromise and meet your H's needs. Though I fear you're rather the exception. But maybe that is my unfair stereotype, or skewed perspective from a HD person.
He came into the compromise from a selfish place only caring that his needs are met by his not being satisfied with what he said would satisfy him shows this. Hmmm, though. I would say in most HD/LD situations, selfishness can be found on both end of the scale. I don't think 'wanting to have sex' or 'not wanting to have sex' differ in regards to selfishness'. The difference is the HD 'receives' and the LD 'gives', but I don't think that defines anything considering 'selfish'. One could say it's equally selfish to not trying to meet your partner's needs. NOTE: That latter comment is not aimed at you, as from all I can read, I see that you're really trying to make things work and put in a real effort.
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