I understand the results. that she may actually mean yes when she is saying no. What I don't understand is why would she have the condtioned response to "hurt" the other spouse. That needs to be figured out and fixed.
Hey, Gremlin. If you think your W might be coming on the board and reading your posts, you might want to tone down the sarcasm a bit. I know that if my W read the "CPR" or "alien" comments, she would think that was pretty critical of her, and would not take to such criticism kindly.
But, if you're using this board as a venting exercise (which we have almost all done, from time to time), then go for it. I just think that, having told your W about it, the board is not an altogether anonymous forum for you anymore.
You are still looking at this for the negative. It is not a conditioned response to intentionally "hurt" the other person. It is merely a conditioned response of words. Why is she conditioned to give that response when he asks "wanna fool around"? I don't know the answer to that, it could be her history, it could be something in her everyday life leaving her overwhelmed at one more request of her...I really don't know. But her conditioned response isn't intentionally to hurt.
Pavlov's dog didn't intentionally drool on the carpet to make a mess when he heard the bell ring....he just drooled at the conditioned response of the bell indicating food.
For her her "no" could just be a knee-jerk reaction to his question that could sound like another demand of her time, something she gets all day long from other people, kids, co-workers, whatever....at least now she's beginning to figure out that she does this...and how she really operates.
I would like to add to your post that in the case of many LD's, they are ALWAYS in a position that feels they would be bothered by sex. Now the burden falls on the HD partner to CHANGE their mindset at that moment to being receptive to sex. For example: My wife ALWAYS has a cluttered mind. She is ALWAYS not aroused or receptive. To get her to let go of the thoughts and stress of the day, I must relax her body and brain (hopefully). So the process to RELAX her and try to arouse her is ALSO the same process to relax her and put her to sleep. So this process results in arousal 20% of the time and results in falling asleep 80% of the time. Now the worst part, if the HD guy does not guess correctly which way the LD is going (sleep versus arousal), he is dogmeat. And the clues she gives off are NOT very easy to see. So she ends up losing respect for me because I guessed wrong, and thought she was aroused when in fact she was basically asleep.
You can have all the insight in the world as to WHY you do something but to actually change behavior is another matter.
Cemar - you stated that your W "hurts" you when she says no. I'm sure she is aware of this fact. Why does she do it?
Maybe she is passive-aggressive. She can control you in a sense by rejecting your sexual advances, without having to deal with underlying issues, resentments, etc.
It is simply easier to follow the same "habit" of saying no than changing long ingrained behaviors.
Re ceMar So this process results in arousal 20% of the time and results in falling asleep 80% of the time. Now the worst part, if the HD guy does not guess correctly which way the LD is going (sleep versus arousal), he is dogmeat. And the clues she gives off are NOT very easy to see. So she ends up losing respect for me because I guessed wrong, and thought she was aroused when in fact she was basically asleep.
CeMar. This sounds so familiar. Maybe my percentages are different, but the basic set of components to the interactions are very similar.
What to do next is the question. I have done many things but only get results I am precieved as withdrawing from the R.
Now the burden falls on the HD partner to CHANGE their mindset at that moment to being receptive to sex I am beginning to think trying to change someone elses mind is something that usually can't be done. The other person has their own valid reasons that make sense to them not to change.
What is the next step if a SO will not go to C or read books, or listen (and do something) to anyone elses opinions. They have their standards/beliefs and I/You don't meet those standards/beliefs.
What you said makes sense but by asking the question you run the risk of interrupting what may turn into a good thing. You either A) distract her and make her stop going with the flow of feelings or B) have asked to soon before the flow becomes a current that she does not want to deny. I'd say there's 2 sides to the coin. One of the dillemas is that for the HD partner, it's extremely hard to read if their W is into ML or not. I would say that more often, Ld partners more 'consent' into ML than 'go with the flow'. We don't get much of sexual response signals, so it is more a question of try and error. Sometimes, my W 'consents' in ML, and when we get into it, she actually anjoys it. One thing which we talked about is how she often has already made a concious decision on forehand she doesn't want to have sex. She admits that sometimes when I snuggle her or caress her, she 'gets in the mood' but she doesn't want to have sex. She says she doesn't understand it herself, but it's something about she didn't feel into beforehand, that she 'decided' not to ML and then kind of 'sticks to it'.
Last sunday evening, my W and I ML. We were driving back from visiting friends over the weekend. we had some good fun, and in the car I plainly asked her: "Can we ML when we get home?" She looked at me to see if I was serious, and when she saw I was, she thought a little moment about it, and then said: "Yeah, why not?" We got home, and it was some really good and very satisfying LM. There was no pressure or 'awkwardness' on her side to it I guess, and for me there was no stress or fear of failure and rejection. It is what makes me more and more convinced that loosely scheduling for sex (not as in having fixed dates perhaps, but more like agreeing to it on forehand) will make it much more pleasant and less anxious. That's the whole point in trying to get clarity. I don't know when the best moment would be, as I grant you that while getting the W in the mood is perhaps a mood breaker. Then again, the bottom line to which I will stick is that expecting us, or telling us that "we should just try" will be more damaging than anything else. The pattern is that the LD partner sets the terms for when there will be LM or not, the LD partner is the one in command, and then he/she doesn't want to give some more clarity on when would be a good time or not? That is pretty crule if you think about it.
Gonna put this simply as this. If you are pretty sure she will feel bothered don't bother her if you are unclear if she will feel bothered test the water. If you are trying every night yeah she does probably feel pressured and resentful which are not good feelings to build desire off of.
My H use to annoy the hell out of me with this. There are clear indicators at times that tell you your spouse is not going to be receptive to you. Just from my perspective I will name some. <snip> Trust me that I am more than aware of the times when she SURE will not be in the mood. I won't even try in those moments. In the remaining moments, I simply don't know, as she kind of displays the same avoidant behavior regardless. There are no clear signals if we will ML or not. So, most of the times, you simply have to 'push on' and up the intimacy untill you either 'get some' or get rejected / pushed away. Not a nice prospect.
If we have had sex frequently and I say no and you make pity yourself noises or show signs of feeling sorry for yourself don't bother to try the next night either I am going to be pissed with the lack of respect you showed me and this will last a day or two if left alone longer if you keep trying. You are not talking to people who get sex daily and pout when they have a day without. I would say now that things have improved a little, I might get sex once (or twice) a week. I am not harassing her every morning and every evening. I am not aiming and begging for daily sex, so this characterization sure doesn't reflect upon me.
This is a pattern my H should know trying to have sex after any of the above mentioned is not recieved well. I have told him so repeatedly. But he just keeps on and on and on trying. I feel like he must be dense at times it is so simple Chris is sick her inners have felt like they are trying to become outers today I should respect her enough to not try to have sex with her today. I can't comment on his behavior as I don't know anything about this, and you may well be right. However, you also have to honestly ask yourself how often you have used any of the reasons you mentioned for not being in the mood as an easy excuse? My W for example admitted that she woud often pretend to be very tired, or pretend to not 'feeling so well' (the good old headache, etc) just to avoid my advances. So, I agree with your point, but then you'd also have to consider that your H might simply no longer trust that you are honest in this regard. Food for thought?
You run the risk of this either way it goes if you try and get shot down or if you decide not to try to avoid getting shot down. Just as the LD partner experiences this if you try every night. The dynamics of those two little words being paired together are endless It is a catch 22. An important thing I can't stress enough is that a) Feeling deprived, we end up wanting it each and every day, as most days are 'another day without ML'. Withold food from someone for a week, and I can assure you he'll be hungry each and every day. And despite this, I think most seasoned HD people here try to not 'beg for it' each and every day. We try to pick good moments, try not to be pushy or too needy. It's all a matter of perspective, and we are obviously at different sides of the fence. The only thing I would say is that you are quick to use the 'insatiable sex hungry' male stereotype. It isn't fair to use that brush to address my arguments, is it?
Who other then yourself expects you to push for it all the time? It is your wants that push you no one elses? The original point was that hairdogs wife kind of stated that was what he should do. Try and error.
If you tried (hypo question here) to have sex with your mate 20 times in 30 days and you only score 1 time. Would you stand to achieve the same score if you only tried 15 times in one month. Because unless you score always on the 15th to 20th try odds are pretty much the same either way. If the frequency of ML was a statstical science, it would. The reality is that a more likely theory is that you will have X 'windows of opportunity' for ML. Then, your LD partner will not initiate or communicate whenever there is such a window of opportunity as she's not desiring sex. At best she might 'get into it' if you try to get more intimate. As long as there is either no agreement on when would be a good time or not, or on some form of communication where the LD partner directly or indirectly signals the partner if ML is an option or not, there aren't many options left except trying to figure out when might be a good time, and just try and error.
And do you start recounting after every encounter or wait until you achieve the 20th try mark? Point to this question is just wondering how much we exhaust ourselfs with useless trying . Trying to iniate trying to avoid it all seems silly if less effort brings us the same result. I am really stressed out with all the trying out of how to feel what a person does not feel.So I may just be rambling now sorry. In my experience, most of the times it's the LD partner who keeps count. My W has on some occasions sais stuff like 'But we already did it last wednesday!'. What does it matter (I mean from her POV) if we had sex the previous day, 3 days before that or over a week ago? I guess for her it matters, while in my opinion that isn't exactly 'going with the flow'. Sounds more like the LD partner is the one in control, designs the 'dosage' and keeps count so as to not exceed some imaginery irrelevant 'frequency'.
I think as long as both men and women, whether LD or HD are leading with the idea that they *must* be horny before initiating sex or engaging in sex, then we may be continuously setting ourselves up for disappointment and dissatisfaction.
Just this weekend, I was touching Ms. HDog in a non-sexual, but suggestive manner. We were in bed, no kids awake. I said, "how 'bout foolin' around?" and she said, "no."
Later, she told me that "99 times out of 100" she would say no to that question. That I just needed to keep on touching and not verbalize. She said, "if you ask that question, and I'm not excited already, I will almost always say no."
I want to share this article with her, because I don't think she'll listen to me when I say, "don't say 'no'...say 'maybe' and try to go with the flow." Isn't that we HD's do when, for instance, my W asks me, "do you feel like cleaning the floor?" The answer is always "no," but I go ahead and do it because I know it is important to her.
I thought that was one thing we were supposed to do when we loved someone.
HD, this is where the communication thing comes in. Of course, it takes two people actually *participating* in order for communication to occur.
See, if the relationship/communication was in a better place, much of this stuff could be addressed beforehand.
I dislike the idea that HD folks are placed in a position to have to creep forward with radar sweeping the nearby area for possible roadblocks. That they must have minded all their p's & q's for the prior x amount of time. That they must tentatively put out their heart once again hoping that the universe will properly align so that they can make love to their spouse. Having to control and squelch their pain upon rejection, or desperately trying to figure out just what worked when they actually succeed.
As you all know, it's not a healthy way to live.
Many of your LD spouses have some unexpressed idea of how it all should go. I think the HD spouses do as well, you're just less inclined to insist that all your criteria to be met. I would also hazard a guess that the LD spouses are more aware of what they don't want than of what they do.
And if they haven't ever accepted the possibility that what they are doing isn't healthy for the marriage or good for the relationship, if they can't step out of their skin long enough to imagine what it must be like for you - then without the horniness, they have little incentive to change.
I would suggest that you take her words to heart for a time. If you are still inclined to initiate, I would just do so - don't talk. Don't ask permission. Don't try to verbally determine what she might want to do.
As you've noted, you clean the floor whether or not you feel like it. That's one of the things I see glaringly wrong in many of the relationships described here.
It goes back to that respect thing we've talked about.
It includes that reciprocity thing we've discussed.
There's is a difference between doing things for your spouse because you love them and when the relationship is one of mutuality.
But, I fear that many of the husbands here have wives that have established themselves as some sort of petulant princesses, who feel perfectly entitled to demand housecleaning, foot rubs, cooked meals, errands, nights out, do things *my* way, etc.
And I don't think any of you receive reciprocal caring even of the non-sexual type. It is this sort of non-reciprocity, non-equality in the relationship that makes you look weak and needy.
And I think that is the foundation that must be addressed.
I haven't posted for a while - I've had a lot going on in my family, have been away on several trips and have been lurking since then. I have been finding this thread particularly interesting.
Thank you MrsNOP for a particularly helpful link and post.
Hairdog, your post was an eyeopener for me. A similar dynamic has occurred in the past in my relationship with my H. The details are slightly different - we have not gone so long between sexual encounters. But on too many occasions, mostly late at night but sometimes early a.m. or midday, my H has asked me outright "do you want to have sex?" and I have in one form or other rejected him. Knowing now what I know about how a rejection of sex felt like a rejection of him as a person I feel very badly about it.
But the truth was that on those occasions (which, to be fair, were often out-of-the blue comments, not preceded by cuddling - not that my H is averse to cuddling - he is actually often more into physical touch than I) I was not feeling very sexual and so I often replied quite honestly that I didn't know or wasn't sure if I wanted to have sex. What I think I meant by that was "I see that you have desire, but I don't seem to have the same kind of desire." Very often, however, I was also feeling "but if we start fooling around I could probably get aroused and go all the way". But I didn't say that - it would sound like I needed special persuasion. I wanted to feel spontaneous desire but felt like my H's question meant "do you feel desire?"
I don't have time to sort out all the feelings and issues here. But I think there were at least a couple of things going on.
1) It is helpful if my H nonverbally cuddles, caresses etc me *before* he asks me if I "want" to have sex, because until that happens, I don't feel the "want".
2) Likewise, it is helpful if I take the "just do it" approach more often and say "yes" even if I don't yet feel the "want" part, because: a) I know the want will come if I do it and b) it's important to our R that we enjoy sexual intimacy more frequently.
In MrsNOP's link to http://www.healthywomen.org/healthreport/april2005 I also appreciated the section on "keeping passion in your relationship". Particularly the advice to "touch each other 10 times a day. It could be anthing from a kiss to a pinch, but the understanding is that this is not going to leaad directly to sex. It's just a way of physically connecting with one another." For me this is a particularly important way of reminding myself of our physical relationship and nurturing my flickers of desire.
DogLover
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
