Quote: I have been thinking lately that I'm not very good at loving gestures, loving words, validation, appreciation. I act nonchalant about gestures that actually mean a lot to me. I don't know why I do that.
It seems like in a dynamic like yours, it would feel very unnatural to shift to those behaviours. Things have been unpleasant between you and your H for a long time... this may be a 180 that changes that dynamic.
Also, your H likes to capitalize on your vulnerabilities, so it's natural that you would be wary of trying such things. But if you do them with zero expectations you won't be vulnerable to any initial rejection on his part.
Good luck Heather, as usual, my thoughts are with you.
I used to be pretty certain of this. Lately however, I've wondered about it. In the end though, I don't think I regret laying everything out there. To have done anything differently would have changed the core of who I am and not for the better I don't think. To not have told everything would have been to a)risk continuing an affair that was hazardous to myself, my family and my marriage and b)let the wrongdoing go in vain by never addressing the causes, the pain it caused, etc. I've seen some thought provoking posts on honesty though as people have contemplated whether or not to tell their partner about a betrayal. One instance in particular comes to mind, if I remember the details correctly, a person who had been cheated on gave advice to someone contemplating telling their partner about a one night stand, and basically said if it was a one time thing then perhaps the need to tell comes more for a relief of conscience and they should remain quiet. Things that make you go hmmm.
Quote: If our spouse strays a bit then is remorseful and comes back, we can continue to believe that we have a bit of control over them. Maybe use shame and/or anger to "keep it from happening again". So our life still works for us. But when the spouse completely abandons their responsibility to the M it becomes crystal clear whether we like it or not that we have no control over them.
Is there anything you can think of that your W could have done to make things clearer besides moving to dissolve your M? It seems so unfortunate to have to make such a drastic move. I mean, why is it do you think that people don't listen to one another? I hear my H's words, but perhaps I am totally missing what he is really telling me just like he apparently missed what I thought I very concisely told him...over and over. Do we just not want to hear it? Not want to accept it? Not want to have to change? Like the way things are so much that the thought of anything different deafens us? Humans can be so simple sometimes and soooo complex other times.
Quote: How were you taught to behave in a R? What was your example?
Well, since I met H when I was 17, he was my only real relationship. I was in love one other time before, but I don't think I gleaned anything from how to handle a relationship. I was only 15-16 at the time. So, that is the extent of my experience with men. Besides one night stands and a few other boyfriends who felt more for me than I for them. Great huh? So, I suppose my other models were my parents and my friends' parents. Again, not so great. My friends' parents were divorced, one mother an alcoholic and my other best friend's mom very eccentric and had multiple boyfriends. My parents were alcoholics (or so I thought, the both quit when they got old!)and would fight a lot. My father was abusive toward my mother, less when I was a kid than for my older siblings. There is 11 years difference in age between my oldest brother and myself and 10 years difference between my sister and I with her being older. There is another five years difference between me and my younger brother. So, it was like my parents had two different families almost and we were raised differently than my older siblings, much to their dismay. They both, my sister especially, wish their childhood could have been different as they witnessed a lot. I remember a few physically violent incidents, but mostly I just remember the arguing and the drunkeness. I was embarrassed of my father the most and bringing friends over always induced anxiety, although not so much with my closes friends as my family was actually the 'normal one' compared to theirs. So, my role models for relationships have been horrible, wouldn't you say?! On the positive side, it brought to light for me what I *don't* want. Unfortunately it seems what I didn't want was much of what I got. Along with some positive qualities in my H that my father didn't seem to have. At least not in his younger years. My oldest sister was divocred after 7 years and my oldest sister was divorced after less than that. Hey, you asked.
Quote: Though I can say, for absolutely sure, that he's no fan of DB'ing! So I've got that going for me.
That and more. You're a good guy with lots of good qualities!!
Quote: It seems like in a dynamic like yours, it would feel very unnatural to shift to those behaviours. Things have been unpleasant between you and your H for a long time... this may be a 180 that changes that dynamic.
I think this is probably the key to opening a pretty big door in my relationship. I've recognized this I think, but wanted help in "faking it" as I couldn't seem to muster many loving feelings toward H. My plan is to completely capitalize on the feelings I *do* get and make the most of them. Better plan than faking it, yah? I let many thoughts and feelings go by unexpressed when they are good ones. Need to learn to let those out. Might help to come up with some specific goals on that....
Quote: Also, your H likes to capitalize on your vulnerabilities, so it's natural that you would be wary of trying such things. But if you do them with zero expectations you won't be vulnerable to any initial rejection on his part.
Yep. Zero expectations is definitely tough. It doesn't mesh well with the way we humans like to do business does it??! I just need to keep telling myself I can do anything for a short while. I don't have to do it forever and can stop anytime. This is a choice *I'm* making to enrich my marriage and thus my life.
Quote: How are you doing with not beating yourself up?
I think I have my moments. Sometimes a full day. I'm weary of forgiving when H claims he has never witnessed me be sorry. I'm weary that if I forgive, the chances of him seeing that are even slimmer. Perhaps it would work in the reverse though.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Is there anything you can think of that your W could have done to make things clearer besides moving to dissolve your M?
I've got some thoughts on this and a few of your other questions but I can't get them to line up in any kind of order tonight. Gotta let 'em percolate a bit I guess.
Meantime, I hope this was a good day. Enjoy your weekend!
And by the way, I thought this was brilliant:
Quote: I just need to keep telling myself I can do anything for a short while. I don't have to do it forever and can stop anytime. This is a choice *I'm* making to enrich my marriage and thus my life.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
~Journaling~ I went to karate last night. I'm quite out of the groove since I've only been there maybe 6 times in the last 3 months. I was learning a sparring routine and my partner was a black belt. I was having trouble remembering the movements and the instructor was adamant that we needed to go faster, which was difficult for me to think of what movement comes next and be able to perform it in time to not get jacked in the face. Which ultimately happened, not a big deal, it didn't hurt very much and there isn't even a mark today. The weird part was that the physical jolt created an emotional reaction in me a minute or two after it happened. I had to bow off the floor and go to the bathroom to cry!! What is *that* about??? I have no idea. I was able to pull myself together enough to finish out the class, but I cried all the way home. I would swear it's PMS because that's how it felt, crying for no "reason". But it's not PMS. I guess I just needed a good cry, but did it have to come at the very place where I'm trying to be tough and hold my own????!!! I was the only girl in the class last night and what do I do?? Start crying ? Oh well.
The reaction scared me for some reason, like I'm that out of touch with myself that I have sporadic outbursts of emotion. I think I'm more stressed out about the words exchanged with my sister and the rest of my family than I've given myself the time to process. I feel ok today. We're going to Busch Gardens and S4 has never been on a roller coaster and we're pretty sure he's old/tall enough to ride one of the coasters there, so we're pretty excited to do that with him.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Hi heatherg.....I had to post my thought on what you are doing today. I touched on it in my last post on my sitch. Here we are...on the rollercoaster of life, throwing us up and down and sideways...trying to maintain our balance and at the same time see if we can spit so that the lugi lands on the head of the OP.(just kidding on that lugi part) and what do you want to do today.....jump on a rollercoaster. Maybe that is the ticket. Maybe that is how we can achieve balance. Ride a rollercoaster to balance our rollercoaster life. Nahhhhhhh.
Heather, I remember once, during all the turmoil, going to the doctor ( I was sick a lot that first year) and just having the doctor put his hands on me, (strep throat, swollen glands, etc) I cried and cried. Something about the physical aspect, having someone care for me when I thought no one did. Never met the guy, but he cared enough to realize there was more to my being sick, than just my virus.
I think we just have so much pent up emotion some times that letting it out, it's like a dam bursting. It just flows and we can't stop it.
Did it feel good letting it out?
Each experience in life has formed me, become part of me, made me stronger.
Yeah, apparently emotions manifest themselves physically sometimes and maybe the release is occasionally for physical relief which is why we don't see it coming?
Quote: Did it feel good letting it out?
Not this time. Mostly it just scared me because I typically know what I'm upset about. This time I had no specifics. It could have been just frustration b/c I was being pushed farther than I felt comfortable with in karate class. Karate definitely takes me out of my comfort zone. I am not used to hitting people and if I accidentally do, I would say I'm sorry. People don't say I'm sorry at the dojo. They ask if you're alright and then you keep going. I'm not a tough girl, I'm a girly girl and this stuff doesn't come at all natural to me. But I'm getting it and some days I even feel like I'm ok at it, lol.
Quote: Maybe that is how we can achieve balance. Ride a rollercoaster to balance our rollercoaster life. Nahhhhhhh.
Chicken, lol!!! I can't say I feel more balanced today, but it was a blast. Apollo's Chariot is the new coaster this year, and it was awesome!! My best (scariest) memory of being on a coaster is the Magnum in Cedar Point in Ohio. Nothing has ever come close to the memory of that climb and drop. Except Apollo's Chariot. It was still a couple hundred feel smaller than the magnum and about 10 mph slower, but it was a close second!! S4 loved the roller coaster he went on...The Big Bad Wolf. I am surprised he didn't cry or anything, the coaster had more drops and turns than I remembered, but he was totally fine with it. But he wouldn't go on one of the water rides b/c he was afraid of getting his face wet, go figure, lol. It was a fun day and the kids had a blast. H and I had a little bonding time too b/c we went on a couple rides by ourselves, as his family aren't huge coaster fans.
Quote: Is that how you spell lugi?
I don't know, but after a double take, I knew what you meant, lol.
As always, thanks for stopping by guys.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
PMA was good today. Had a nice day with H's family, we were all together yesterday as well. H's parents got all their kids tickets to Busch Gardens, so we all went together yesterday. So, it was a full weekend with the in-laws! Darn, I thought Desperate Housewives was premiering tonight, I don't know why I thought that. But alas, it's not until Sept 25th for anyone else who's interested. I love that show!! I wasn't much looking forward to colder weather, but it does have it's benefits and that show is one of them I've also grown pretty fond of football season these past couple of years. H got the football package when we got satellite and his dad usually comes over to watch with him and S4, we put D2 down for a nap and his mom and I go shopping. Then after the game, we eat something that I've been cooking all day like a pot roast or something. To me, that's a fun day. Aren't I easy?? The other night H and I watched The Ring 2. Not nearly as good as The Ring, but the girl was freaky enough to make up for the bad graphics and stupid scene with the deer. After the movie was over, I went into my room and tried to turn on the light and the bulb burned out. Ok, I'm a baby and that scared the daylights out of me. So, I tried to sleep on the couch, but to no avail. D2's rocking horse was staring at me so I covered it with H's t shirt. Still couldn't sleep. Went and got H and asked him to come sleep in the living room to protect me, which he did. He was my hero
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I've also grown pretty fond of football season these past couple of years. H got the football package when we got satellite and his dad usually comes over to watch with him and S4, we put D2 down for a nap and his mom and I go shopping. Then after the game, we eat something that I've been cooking all day like a pot roast or something. To me, that's a fun day. Aren't I easy??
Cripes. Post that to match.com and watch the place burn down!
I'm still thinking about your other questions, but W got home early tonight so I'm relegated to short responses from my work laptop...sorry.
Oh, and you suck regarding the rollercoaster thing. W and both S's are scared of heights. But I freaking love rollercoasters! And I just this instant realized that there's nothing keeping me from going any more. I see King's Dominion in my future...
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Regarding "I don't think you can be too honest...."
Quote: To not have told everything would have been to a) risk continuing an affair that was hazardous to myself, my family and my marriage and b) let the wrongdoing go in vain by never addressing the causes, the pain it caused, etc.
I agree with what you did.
I was listening to Joe Beam of the Family Dynamics Institute talk about Emotional Intimacy. He said that it was necessary for spouses who have had affairs to tell their wives/husbands about the affair so that they can be totally honest and truthful to each other. They need to trust each other. But the spouse also needs to give their partner room to react. I'm sorry that this is the part that is causing you so much pain.
I agree with what he said b/c I believe that WAW didn't talk to me about her feelings. She learned this from her father who kept info from his W, and still does. I think that it rather controlling of a spouse to decide what their spouse needs to know or can handle and doesn't need to know or can't handle. (Remember Jack Nicholson's line, "You can't handle the truth!"?) I'd be PO'ed if WAW had that arrogant attitude, but I don't know. I don't think that I ever gave her a reason to believe that there would be consequences if she told me about her feelings, but that goes back to my lessons of perception. Just b/c I think I presented myself one way to W, doesn't mean that she saw me that way.
