Quote: Only if you want to set yourself up for disappointment.
True. But basically anything I do will set me up for disappointment except submission.
Quote: Just tell her your needs/wants. Needs: to feel loved, to feel a connections. Wants: to ML is the best way for you to meet my needs. If she meets your needs, great. If not, then you work on yourself, get a life, maybe go to MC.
I have often and repeatedly expressed my needs being 'affection, attention, comfort', and she totally understands, validates and recognizes those needs. They are simply not met :\. ML is important, but I would be happy with little LM if in ~any~ form those needs were met in some way. I think sex is primarily a focal point in this. While it is important to me, it's not the godend answer to everything. As I said in another post, the cat fares better than I do in that respect. :\
Quote: By the way, are you from the UK? The reason I ask is because you mention going TO a fish and chips, rather than going FOR fish and chips. And of course the whole fish and chips thing. One of my favorite posters on this board who ended up with a pretty successful story was SuperDave. He hailed from England.
No, I'm from the US. A lot of UK peeps and thus fish and chips places here tho.
The whole interaction you just described with your wife (going out to eat, putting off any intimacy, filling up the weekend with "fun" things to do (everything but sex, of course) is exactly how H and I were pre-separation.
My H and I would be "pleasant" to each other at all times. Nice as could be. Never a mean name called. Sure we had some shouting matches but probably less than once a year. We sort of just coasted along on "niceness" and thought that would be enough. Well, darn it, it isn't!
I can be "nice" with my friends. I wanted to see some passion/actions/desire/sexiness, anything that made our relationship an intimate one. Nothing.
And don't get sucked into thinking (like I did) that you are the one who was really unhappy and she seems content. That is BS. The other person is perfectly aware of the problems in the relationship. They may say things are fine, no problem, I'm happy, etc but they are lying to themselves and to you.
Some people can get through their whole lives without that underlying resentment exploding but we certainly didn't and I don't think most people should. That's a sad way to live in my opinion.
As for the email, being the "new" me, I would throw in there something fun that you know she wants to do and then come right out and tell her that you would love to ML, have hot sex, whatever terminology works for you, and make sure she feels desired by you starting now until the moment on the weekend. Meaning, don't avoid the "foreplay" until just before "the action." Keep sending little reminders and she may be more receptive? Just speculating.
I don't think you have to tell her what your needs are. She knows. It sounds to me like you're being too nice, hovering over her too much. What about introducing some benign distance? Friendly but not so sweet, gentle, understanding, etc. What you're doing isn't getting you where you want to be.
And I agree with LfL, she is not content. I completely agree with this: "The other person is perfectly aware of the problems in the relationship. They may say things are fine, no problem, I'm happy, etc but they are lying to themselves and to you."
Quote: Anyway, take her to the fish and chips, say "Oh, that sounds good!" when she choses the most fatt and unhealthy plate available, say "Sure, why not share an appetizer?", etc, etc. A few drinks, and she states how she feels 'all happy' and how 'she loves me so much', etc.
We come home, she crashes into bed, says she has a slight headache and is 'really tired'. I remain all chipper and upbeat, comfort her a bit, stroke her hair (which often helps the headache, perceived or not, go away), and let her fall asleep and me being all cuddly her way and stuff.
The carbing out and crashing can be indicative of depression and low serotonin levels. Carby foods up your serotonin levels and temporarily make you feel better. It's a form of self-medication. Think of dogs who go out and eat grass. Evidently it does something for them at the time, but you know that within the next little while, the dog is going to be barfing in your kitchen floor. She probably hasn't recognized the cause and effect.
Food and Mood "One theory is that carbohydrates stimulate serotonin production and thus eating them is an attempt to self-medicate depression. Studies focused on this link do seem to back this up. High carbohydrate meals raise serotonin1 while fatty or protein rich meals tend to lower it. The type of carbohydrate chosen seems to be based upon it's glycemic index, or how high it causes blood sugar levels to peak. The higher glycemic index carbohydrates like sugar have a greater effect on serotonin than starchy, lower glycemic index foods like potatoes."
and another:
Depression & Food Cravings "One common symptom of depression is weight gain. The reason we can’t seem to control our appetite isn’t all in your head Your brain is producing the wrong chemicals, and your body is compensating by taking them from the foods you eat.
Scientists have known that low levels of serotonin may contribute to depression. They also have found the link between low serotonin levels and weight gain. When serotonin levels are low, your body looks for a substitute in carbohydrates. The sugars in carbohydrates cause the pancreas to release more insulin, which in turn allows more serotonin type chemicals to be absorbed by the brain. But this effect lasts only a few minutes and leaves you craving more food.
This process is also very inefficient, because food is not a rich source of serotonin chemicals. "
I'm not trying to justify the lack of sex in your marriage. I am pointing out that the up for food, and crash soon after may not be *just* an attempt to avoid sex with you. It does become a convenient excuse.
Quote: Clearly, she is concious of her own behavior as she apologizes for it, but at the moment itself, it is obviously too much effort to try to need some of my needs....?
Anger suppressed tends to leak out. It oozes out at odd times that are often disconnected from the original cause of your anger. For ex., you get ticked that she chose not to ML to you the night before, however you work at not giving into anger, stroke her hair, suck it up and go to sleep. But, the next day that anger can begin to bubble at unrelated incidences. She may sense the anger, doesn't want you to be mad at her and then attempts to assuage the underlying anger by hinting at happier times to come. Which, at the time she says it, she probably means it. But by this time (and understandably so) your attitude is one of "yeah, sure". She conveniently later decides that she doesn't like your attitude when it's time for her to put some action behind the hint, she's not feeling real great at the later moment, so she puts you off again.
I don't think you have to tell her what your needs are. [u]She knows[/u]. It sounds to me like you're being too nice, hovering over her too much. What about introducing some benign distance? Friendly but not so sweet, gentle, understanding, etc. [u]What you're doing isn't getting you where you want to be.[/u] I totally agree with the underlined parts. And yes, maybe I am too nice, but the thing is I love her, and I want to make her feel good. I want to make her happy, and my hope is that at some point she'll reciprocate it. I don't want to play games, and I have read that in mos LD cases, keeping a distance only worsens the situation. But I agree that whatever I've been doing so far doesn't seem to work.
"The other person is perfectly aware of the problems in the relationship. They may say things are fine, no problem, I'm happy, etc but they are lying to themselves and to you." True. The weird thing is that she often says "But I thought things were going fine." It's a catch from my own behavior I think. When I simply try to make things as comfortable as possible, eg eliminate myself from the equation, don't expect any intimacy, give her a good feeling, remove any pressure or desire for intimacy or sex, etc, she feels happy, and maybe for some reason, because she feels happy, she assumes I must this be happy as well and all my needs are met.
MrsNOP.
I'm not trying to justify the lack of sex in your marriage. I am pointing out that the up for food, and crash soon after may not be *just* an attempt to avoid sex with you. It does become a convenient excuse. I think you're right there. I think it could be a combination of both. Maybe some unconcious behavior she isn't aware of herself. Maybe I should starve her.
For ex., you get ticked that she chose not to ML to you the night before, however you work at not giving into anger, stroke her hair, suck it up and go to sleep. But, the next day that anger can begin to bubble at unrelated incidences. She may sense the anger, doesn't want you to be mad at her and then attempts to assuage the underlying anger by hinting at happier times to come. Which, at the time she says it, she probably means it. But by this time (and understandably so) your attitude is one of "yeah, sure". She conveniently later decides that she doesn't like your attitude when it's time for her to put some action behind the hint, she's not feeling real great at the later moment, so she puts you off again.
Rinse and repeat.
Does any of this sound plausible? I guess it's a pretty recognizable pattern. In essence, as long as she doesn't 'sense' my unhappines because of lack of sex and intimacy, she perhaps thinks she doesn't have to 'do' anything as 'I seem happy', so at some point as you say, my hurt, anger or resentment start oozing out, so she realizes she should perhaps try to meeet my needs perhaps, but of course by then, the atmosphere for such is far from perfect, and she might put it off because she feels bad / guilty for my mood, and is kept at a distance as well by my emotions oozing out. Sounds plausible to me, we have some kind of a pattern in that.
My LDH falls into this pattern as well...if I act "as if" everything is ok, even though there's a BIG problem....he assumes I am ok becuase he's ok and that everything is fine. Of course you love her, and it's not suprising you want to meet her needs to make her happy....don't stop doing that. But also, don't continue to let your own needs go unaddressed, that only leads to resentment (as you know)....then that resentment can lead to distancing, that distance in turn can cause you to push her away unintentionally, it's a vicious cycle......so don't let your needs go unaddressed. Perhaps she won't meet them immediately, perhaps it will take time reinforcing what you tell her you need (don't wait for you to break down to tell her, do it when you are calm and not upset).....but IMPO acting "as if" everything is ok doesn't help.
This topic seems to come around over and over again. Do you detach, GAL and hope your partner will respond to a stronger, non-needy version of yourself, or do you express what you want, become more pushy, and set limits? I guess what I have been trying to do is combine the two.
