I'm with you on this one, Lillie. Although I have given up trying to collect statistics to show how abnormal my wife's drive is, she will sometimes try to tell me that my wanting to ML once a week is not "normal." I refuse to debate with her. The temptation to call her frigid or worse is too much, so I choose not to go down that path.
I'm torn between empathizing with how you feel, and terrified that it could be me. We've been having our problems for a few years now, and have now gone more than a year & 1/2 without any sex at all - but trying to imagine that continuing for 10 more years scares me to death.
Does your W know about the massages, and what they mean to you? How does she feel about them? I have caught myself on more than one occassion considering going to get one, but would feel guilty about it (and would have a hard time explaining where the $ went to, if I didn't discuss it with my W first).
Is your W doing anything to address the situation, or is it just "the way it is"? If not, what do you think your long-term outlook is (although it sounds like you're already at "long-term")?
Good plan. I tried that approach years ago. Trying to convince someone that they are "abnormal" doesn't seem to be a very effective motivational tool (at least it wasn't in my case). I dropped the "frigid" bomb on her during our argument after our 5th wedding anniversary didn't result in any sex, and have regretted it since - even if it feels true. Labeling & name-calling are not useful tools in motivating change - but nothing else seems to be working either.
Lillie, I was only trying to get a point across that what is normal for one person is not necessarely normal for another. I have to agree that I think once or twice a year is not normal for anyone, but then again if thats all that person thinks/acts on desires of sex, then maybe it is normal for that person. Maybe it has become normal for that person over the years. I think the whole thing here is "desire." I "desire" ML, so therefore I think about it. I'm in the same boat as most others here, I want a satisfying SL with my spouse, and there have been times where I have just given up.
FWIW, I agree with you. There is very little I can think of that would be more threatening to someone, or put them in a more defensive stance than calling them...."not normal" or "abnormal".
Take my H for example....he's had a VERY low SD...almost a non-existent one basically for as long as I've known him....and according to him for as long as he can remember....so for him the way he feels, the way he desires....is normal for him. I can only imagine how he started feeling when I started bringing up the issue that I wasn't satisfied with our SL.
I used to be someone who would be fine with sex once a month or even once every two months (hence a great deal of my frustration now since I'm no longer that way)....had someone told me back then I wasn't normal.....man! I'd have dug my heels in and hung on for dear life. "How dare someone call me "not normal"!!!"
Personally I believe this is where a great deal of my H's resistence is coming from right now....that and the fact that the doesn't buy the "use it or lose it" frame of thinking.
I know what you are talking about, my desire level was not very much when I was young. I had my one and only son at age 18 and had a very hard pregnancy and delivery and for years and years after that I avoided sex all the time. I had desire but was scared to death of going through all that again, so I avoided it when I could. After I got "fixed" it became a different story.
However, even up until my late 30s once every other week would have been fine, but in my 40s something happened and I became a very horny lady. But even before that my current S had not much desire, and at that time he was having his own problems so even when my desire arose it was me almost begging him for it.
Right now once a month is what is normal for H but with his ED problems our SL is quite unsatisfying to say the least.
Quote: There’s a big difference between *once a day-once a week* AND “once a year.* I know we’re not supposed to “label,”
Yet the compulsion to do so is to difficult to ignore.
According to the info you provided, your boyfriend had a very difficult childhood including a mom who was overtly sexual toward/in front of him.
Add decades of alcoholism, heart disease and erectile disfunction.
It is a normal human reaction to build up defenses and constructs against negative emotional intrusions. The downside to those defenses is that once erected, they are d*mn hard to dismantle.
So which is more abnormal - if that shall be our term of preference - the supposedly abnormal man who appears be suffering from the repercussions of poor mothering, a missing dad?, a body that doesn't function well sexually or the supposedly normal woman who voluntarily spends days, months, years in frustration attempting to fix him?
I know this - that everytime a spouse shows up the picture changes. I don't think folks are here attempting to deceive, but it is clear what we get from individual participants is not fully representative of what is happening in our homes. So much of the relational dynamic is left unmentioned, probably even unrecognized.
I'll be honest with you, Lil, I'm biting my tongue not to light into you and paste a few labels on you. But I recognize that that is my anger talking and it's usually best not to give into it.
So, what do you get out of it, what does it accomplish and why are you doing it?
Mrs. NOP, you know what? You're right. He is sick. I am sick for staying with him. I'm sure I get something out of it-- but whatever I get is sick.
His behavior is NOT normal... his behaviors are understandable and justifiable, given his background-- but his behaviors are not normal and healthy. He has stopped drinking, but he still smokes. Smoking is not normal or healthy-- lungs were not designed to have smoke sucked into them hundreds of times a day.
I am also not normal or healthy. It is not normal for a woman my age to still be pouring her energy into trying to help someone. What do I get emotionally in return? Very little. I get many Acts of Service, but little affection and no sex. I acknowledge and own that I am sick-- I am in therapy and so is he. The prognosis is questionable.
I do not mind having the label "abnormal" attached to me if it is true. That word does not poke my hot button. I want to know who I am, warts and all. So, Mrs. N, if you have more labels-- I invite you, no, I BEG you, to bring them out. Hold up a mirror to me. You, my anonymous friends, see a side of me that no one else sees. (If it's a long comment, you may want to post on my thread Reclaiming Your Sexual Self). Be angry if you must, but please tell me about myself. I am one sick puppy.
You commented as follows regarding the absence of sex in your life - "trying to imagine that continuing for 10 more years scares me to death".
On the surface it appears that you are in the same rudderless, powerless boat as me. I have found in this regard that it is very difficult to change your circumstance after a period of time. I know in my case I thought that being patient for a while would be the best course of action - try and be supportive and understanding and she would "come around".
I found that after a year or so of being supportive, that any mention of the topic resulted in extreme backlash. This resulted in more time spent in our non-touching non -sexual relationship with no change. More discussion on the topic resulted in more backlash, anger and punishment. Eventually, the topic in our household became a taboo - the preverbial elephant in the room that was purposefully ignored be everyone. If this is happening to you after a year and a half, I would say your prospects for change after much longer are low.
At this point, I do not tell my wife about going for massage so that there is some physical touch in my life. Money has never been an issue to us and my wife has not worked or had any monetary need to work for 25 years. She has indicated that I should take care of my sexual needs on a solo basis, and I am finding that having some human touch without sexual contact at least helps my sanity.
As for the long term prospects, I know I have long ago given up on thinking there is any hope of a physical relationship with my wife. I am just hoping that one day my wife will be pleasant to me and will at least acknowledge that I am an ok husband, that she will put her arms around me and perhaps even want to kiss me on the lips as a husband. I believe this is an achievable goal, although I can not predict whether this will ultimatelyl be satisfactory. I suspect, however, that I am more likely to run into someone who actually appears to be attracted to me - my wife comments on this constantly as she deep down knows that her lack of desire and affection makes our long term survival as a couple vulnerable.
Gremlin, sorry to be so negative, but you should know the effects of a long term absence of a physical relationship on you, the HD spouse. I hope you can resolve your situation in the very near future.
