I'm still standing by my assessment, however, that she does not understand REAL SEX. Whatever she's got sex wrapped in, be it past trauma or unrealistic romance, she doesn't understand IT, know what I'm saying? Remember, I've used all those excuses and then some in my own past... and it all came from my skewed misunderstanding, my own projections, my own 'tangled wires.'
Keep in mind the woman has an aversion to sex, and YOU represent SEX to her. She is projecting, and (yea for you) you now understand this isn't your bag to carry. You don't personalize her aversion anymore. That's true power.
Yet you still have the 'aversion' problem because you love her... which necessitates you hauling out your 'empathy.' Patience is practicing empathy and tolerance, without being a doormat. You got the doormat part figured out. Issue here is not figuring out 'why' she is the way she is, but helping her to feel safe enough to explore her sexuality and learn what real sex is... which is completely separate from love (imho).
See if you can help her break it down. Her excuses are her safety net. You remove the excuses, she feels like she is standing on the edge of a cliff with no handrails. That's enough to send anyone into panic mode, or to the wine cellar.
My suggestion is to desensitize her to the issue of sex... help her separate YOU from SEX. In her mind, the two are one and the same right now, so you carry the brunt of her fear, etc., etc. See where I am going with this?
Quote: My suggestion is to desensitize her to the issue of sex... help her separate YOU from SEX.
I am stymied.
I can't separate ME from SEX in her mind by AVOIDING the issue, which, as you know, I have tried before.
I can't separate ME from SEX in her mind by Milieu Therapy, in other words, by bombarding her with sexual references, innuendo, etc.
(aside) I just got a call from her in which she was upset that, while I had to access her work computer at her request to get a client's phone number for her, I inserted an item in her Outlook Calendar for today: "Squeeze Hairdog's Butt Day." She said it was a violation of her privacy, and it was a sexual comment, which isn't funny. While I apologized for the minor violation of privacy, I told her that it wasn't that sexual, and that I wish she'd get back the sense of humor she used to have. (/aside)
So, Corri, what are you suggesting? Remember this line?: Explain it to me like I was a 6 year old.
Quote: I can't separate ME from SEX in her mind by AVOIDING the issue, which, as you know, I have tried before.
I never suggested you avoid the issue, nor go into overkill.
Quote: So, Corri, what are you suggesting? Remember this line?: Explain it to me like I was a 6 year old.
She has a PHOBIA. Some people have a bizarre fear of water, or flying or spiders. They act in irrational manners when confronted with their fear. In studies on fears of phobias, shrinks are discovering that 'why' the phobia exists is not the key to solving the problem (i.e, I fell into a swimming pool and almost drown when I was three... therefore I fear water). The key is desensitizing the patient to the fear itself, regardless of WHY the fear is there in the first place.
You putting the comment about your butt into her calendar is like suggesting to a person who fears water that the two of you go for a quick dip in the pool. You are triggering her fear. If you always suggest to a person who fears water that the two of you do things together that involve water, that person is going to start avoiding you.
The first step here, from my very comfty armchair at home... is to help her understand that she does in fact have a fear of sex. SEX. Not intimacy. SEX. Smelly, sweaty, grinding, less that perfectly choreographed coupling.
Two, when she can admit that... it will help her understand that Hairpup does NOT equal SEX. Hairpup is the HUSBAND who inadvertantly triggers HER fear because HE does NOT have a fear of water (SEX).
Three. Run everything I've said here past your shrink, and see if s/he agrees/disagrees.
Wow the I want you to not want me is even new to me. I have wanted my H to be able to touch me sometimes without it becoming sexual to him. But I do not think that is quite the same thing your W said.
I am pondering so many thoughts as to undlerlying meaning. But I am more in the WTH arena. As in what the hell does she expect you to say. Okay dear! Not Maybe okay dear I understand you do not want me to want you. I understand you want to live as best friend/ room mates. So since I agree to no longer want you for fufillment of my emotional and physical needs is it okay with you if I want the neighbors wife. Or the lady in the bookstore or even my sectretary in this aspect? I feel this is the only way to meet a aceptable comprimise to meet both of our wants. This will allow me to still fill your emotional need for me to be your best friend and be here for you. And it will allow me to fufill my emotional need to be in a mature and emotionally and physically fufilling relationship while remaining your best friend.
Yes that would be my line of thinking as to the answer/response she should expect to recieve if you said okay. But just my line of thinking.
I am so sorry HD since from the outside it seems this lady is making you sit up and do tricks over and over again. I can only imagine what it feels like from the inside.
I am wondering if this is more of her unconditional love angle myself. A test of it or what the reason was for it in the begining ie making you make a promise then making it impossible to keep to make you just like all the others. I do not have a clue really though.
I am just adding my befuzzled thoughts to your own.
My H would have responded somewhat as your wife did . A meal is not a meal without meat in his POV. The only differnce he would have gotten up and cooked some meat even if it was a hotdog.
Ah, phobias: Erotophobia- Fear of sexual love or sexual questions. Genophobia- Fear of sex.
Yeah, I think I'll run it by the MC first. This is very possible, and something I have considered before. Getting her to admit it is another matter altogether.
Chris: She didn't say "I want you to not want me." She said, "I want you to not want OF me" I think she wants me to want her...just not to bother her about it.
That whole " I want you to not want of me" thing is taking me a while to process, too. My take of it is that she is willing to put herself out there to experience some sensual pleasure, but she is scared and feels pressured by your needs. If you use the sex as a swimming pool analogy, it's like you are comfortable playing in the water and you want her to join you. She is sitting at the edge of the pool and knows on some level it's normal and natural to have fun in the water, but she doesn't feel it yet. She'd like you to lightly splash her and she can enjoy the feel of things; she is asking you to not pull her in. I really see this as a first step, HDog. When my H and I began addressing the sexual issues between us, we had regressed so much...we had to learn to swim again. It was pretty weird. I think it's harder because damage has been done ( picture that on some level she has felt drowned by you). Trust needs to be restored. The resurrection of your sex life is going to come in awkward, small steps; this is the repair process and it has to start somewhere. I would schedule some time for you to give her pleasure.
Quote: She said, "I want you to not want OF me" I think she wants me to want her...just not to bother her about it.
I took it to mean that she's tired of you asking and wanting, "Do me, do me!" She may want to feel that you are offering to give her something (pleasure) rather than asking her to give you something. She may think that sexual pleasure should be a freely offered gift, rather than an obligation that is demanded.
I don't remember if you've mentioned whether you've had sexual encounters that were focused on her pleasure and not yours.
SD: I'm glad you asked. I have, over the past six months or so, initiated sex maybe four or five times. I have been turned down all of those times. She has initiated twice, successfully.
Now, given that background, I can honestly tell you that she very likely is tired of me asking and wanting. Mostly, the wanting. Because, you see, she knows that I want her, constantly, 24/7/365. She knows that I want to use her for my degrading habit of sexual intercourse. I can be sitting there next to her, reading, and she knows, that, deep down, I want to do the horizontal bop.
I might be fixing dinner, and she knows that I'm doing it for one reason: to get her to have sex with me.
I might be sleeping, but she knows that I'm dreaming of tying her to the bed and forcing myself on her.
Okay...now that I've gotten that out of my system, I will tell you that there is indeed truth in what you say. She really does think that I am driven by my sexual urges, and that this is all I care about.
I went on for years denying this, and apologizing for my sexuality. Only lately have I started to tell her that yes, I do desire her, that I enjoy sex, that I'd like to have it more than a couple times a year and that some of the time I think about it. But not nearly to the extent she thinks I do.
And yes, I am sure that she thinks that sex should be a freely offered gift, rather than an obligation that is demanded. She has even used those very words, as a matter of fact. And, to add to those words, she has said that it is a precious gift. She has accused me of demanding it. If you knew me, you might laugh at that. I may have, early on in the relationship, gotten a bit "pissy" after being turned down numerous times, but I am not the "demanding" type, nor is my W one from whom you would demand something.
As far as whether our sexual encounters focus on her pleasure or mine, I will give you this snapshot:
During those times when we do ML, it usually begins (even when she verbally initiates), with me touching her breasts and then, gradually, proceding to her genitals. Sometimes, but not always, she will play with me, but usually not for more than a few seconds. Usually, on her cue, we'll begin to have sex, in either the missionary position, or with her on top. We've only had sex in other positions maybe a half dozen times since we've been together. Oral sex, giving or receiving, is not allowed. Once in a particular position, changing positions is not allowed. She doesn't particularly like it if I try to vary my speed, so I try to start out as slow as possible. Still, I must admit that I don't last very long, maybe a few minutes at best. It's tough when you only have sex a couple times a year, and you can't change positions or speed.
So, I would say that the first 80 percent of the "act" is focused almost exclusively on her pleasure, although I derive great pleasure doing this for her. The last 20 percent is for me, I suppose, and I must say that I usually don't end up enjoying it very much because it passes so quickly.
Why even bother? Because, you know. It can be so wonderful. It even has been wonderful with her before, although it's been years. Because it's a way I can feel close to someone I love in a romantic way. Because it has such great potential.
Well, I took that comment and ran with it, didn't I?
I don't know if I ever told that I used to wonder if my W might be gay. I have also thought that she may be asexual. Given her aversion to oral sex, I think she'd make a lousy lesbian, but maybe not. I know there's a lot more to a relationship than sex. I just didn't think that it was all I had to look forward to for the rest of my life.
