Hey, all. A lot of activity on my thread last night and this morning. Thanks for all the input and suggestions.
Had a big fight last night and this morning (actually, just a continuation of the fight we've been having). And, of course, it got REALLY ugly.
This morning, though, she said something to me that really echoed what Chrissy had said here. Mainly, that she can't think about working on the sexual part of it all, with the threat of divorce hanging over her head. In addition, she finally seemed ready to take serious my statement that I don't feel loved without physical affection.
I told her that I was tired of her not only ignoring my sexual nature, but ridiculing it. It seemed to hit a chord in her.
We'll see if it has any type of lasting effect, but I do feel better about us than I have for several weeks.
But damn, am I tired today.
Hairdog
P.S. Cemar: never refer to your wife as "the wife." Just call her "my wife." Using the word "the" is offensive to a fairly large portion of the U.S. female population. Don't ask me why. Just trust me on this.
PPS: Cemar: I've really appreciated your questions and support of me lately. Just wanted you to know.
HD, Sorry that things got ugly. Sometimes that's the impetus for forward motion. I'm glad that things are striking a chord with her--perhaps since she's a screamer, she needs to see some serious ugliness from you before she thinks you mean it?
Was there any resolution or just a temporary truce while you each left for work?
Hairy, Despite the screaming I think that is good. Even MrsNOP has said on several occasions that ugliness, hard feelings and thrown dinner dishes were a necessary part of the process. Hopefully, your striking a chord with her is the first of many
Quote: Was there any resolution or just a temporary truce while you each left for work?
I think that there was some progress made toward resolution. The issues aren't resolved by any means, but what happened this time that appears to be different than other times, is:
1. I refused to apologize for being a sexual person 2. She seemed to take seriously my statement that I only "feel" loved by her when she is giving me physical affection (Before, she had only seen this statement as manipulative. Also, I really hammered the difference between my intellectually "knowing" that she loved me just because she was there, and my "feeling" loved, as a result of touch.) 3. I told her that, given number 2, above, I found it hard to give her what she wanted, which was an unconditional promise that I would love her and stay married to her forever. I asked her if she would find it easy to commit to a lifetime with someone by whom you rarely felt loved. She seemed to "get" this. 4. I "got" the idea that it was hard for her to feel physically loving towards me when she was thinking that her performance and effort were being "graded" by me, and that a "failing grade" meant I would leave her.
Conflict is not a bad thing. It is often a necessary thing. After flying dishes and other niceties , NOP and I almost always came back (usually the same day) to address the issues in a calmer fashion.
That's the part that seems to be missing at times for some folks. The - okay we got those hard feelings out, now what are we going to do about the issues - time. I think many folks go back to their respective corners - and stay there afterwards. Effectively letting that be the momentary *end* rather than the *beginning*.
This is really good work, HD. I have to say, most of my progress with H has been made by drama type fights, even though on this board the interactions may come through as more calm and collected.
I know you are exhausted, but the thing to do now is to build on the momentum by focusing on action-oriented solutions, such as a Date Nite, for instance.
Here's where we are: She wants me to commit to unconditional love for her (because my condition of having a physical relationship or I'm out is keeping her from feeling physical), and I feel I have done this in the past, yet she has said I'm not "really" committing because she "knows" I'm not doing it from my heart, and the weeks go by with little affection, and no ML. So I'm reluctant to ride that train again.
I don't know if I can feel this commitment in my heart, as I look to my future and see the very real possibility of going through a lifetime feeling unloved by her. And I have told her this. She says that it's a matter of trust.
She has also pulled out the "The Road Less Traveled" by Scott Peck, and its chapter about the myth of romantic love, the transitory "high" of orgasm and how it fools us into believing that we love someone by breaking down ego boundaries for a second or two, and that real love comes from giving and sharing and thus breaking through those ego boundaries over time.
Yeah, right.
I understand what Peck is saying, but does that mean I'm evil or immature or unenlightened just because I want my wife to make love to me?
Anyone read that book who can recall that chapter and maybe put it into context in the SSM situation? Are all of us HD spouses just being immature and seeking some sort of endorphin rush and fooling ourselves it represents trust and sharing and LOVE? Or are we all just a bunch of hedonists who need an outlet for our animal desires?
Hairy, Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you BEEN showing unconditional love to her for the last several years? Sex a handful of times per year and you're there and still love her. So why hasn't this increased her feelings of wanting to try?
Furthermore, the idea of unconditional love is just bogus.
I can guarantee that if you started beating her, she'd be outta there. We ALL have boundaries and conditions that must be met. Understand that I am not equating being sex starved with spousal abuse--merely stating the obvious that she does indeed have conditions but sex just isn't one of them. Perhaps if you said, I will help around the house maybe 2 times per year. The rest of the time you are on your own.
I can further guarantee that she'd find her commitment to you and the R wavering and she'd be left wondering what she gets out of this R, anyway.
As far as Mr. Peckerhead and his views on Love, well, there are about a zillion more books that tout lotsa love as a relationship salve than ones like his, so if she wants to get into a book war, bring it on!
What does your C say about unconditional love? I think your W would benefit hearing from a third party that this is not something to strive for in an adult relationship.
However, having said all that, I do get what your wife is saying. She can't find it in herself to try because she feels she's being graded.
My only suggestion around that is to make a schedule. Saturday nights are for luuuuv. That way, she doesn't have to worry about it, or think of excuses, etc. It sounds like someone with her rigid personality would also benefit from knowing the what, when and where, too. IOW, what is expected of her.
Can you bring this up in counseling and see how it goes?
Hairdog... I can say that I have had your W's POV ( and btw, I did read that book yrs ago)and now have your POV, and again, there's no "winning" here. You can get lots of validation from the BB that sex brings vitality to a marriage, and your W can point out passages in " enlightenment" books; what's missing is a compromise. And until you reach some sort of compromise, you both will be in your crucibles. You have to figure out how important this is to you and what you are willing ( or not willing) to do.
, NOP and I almost always came back (usually the same day) to address the issues in a calmer fashion. 