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what about modeling the proper behavior for S4 by using it with D2 and H. Just start doing it. "Good morning D2, how are you today?" "Good Morning Daddy, D2, tell Daddy good morning" You could even ask S4 to help you teach D2 how to do this. "S4, when D2 wakes up, I want you to tell her good morning and give her a big smile. This will help her learn good manners"

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This is a good idea. Do you think maybe I have more influence than I feel like I do? Even if S4 is modeling H's behavior, do you think that I have some power to mitigate it by modeling good behavior myself?

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You could say, "H, I think we need to work on S4's manners. What do you think we could do to get him to be more courteous?"

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I've tried this. H stands by the idea that my son adores me and I am reading too much into his actions. H doesn't acknowledge that there is a problem with the way S4 treats me. It's too similar to the way H treats me and then he might have to see an issue with his own behavior and he wouldn't want to have to go there....

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I agree that kids learn these behaviors early on, and that you do have time to turn him around.

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I wonder sometimes if it's possible under the current circumstances though, without leaving......but then I run the risk that it would only get worse. S4 wears my H's shirt to bed every night and he has been carrying around a picture frame with a picture of him and his Daddy in it. He has told me before when H has gone on other trips that he wishes it was me on the trip and that Daddy was home. It is entirely possible that the dynamic between S4 and I is *completely* independent of my R with H. I don't know how to tell....

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"Daddy lets me sleep in the chair at Grandma's house. Daddy loves me more than mommy. I just want to go to sleep and Mommy won't let me." "I want my Daddy, Mommy doesn't love me." Silly me, I put her in a bed, how was I to know she'd rather sleep in a chair?

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Parenting is hard stuff. Single parenting deserves a medal of honor. You're doing a great job, making decisions that are best for yourself, your kids and your Dad. A couple nights sleeping in a chair and she will understand what "mommy knows best" means

Along the same lines, though, I forgot to mention that S4 and I had a "sleepover" last night. I invited him to stay up a little later than normal watchting TV and I popped popcorn and sat next to him. He asked me to turn out the lights like when Mommy and Daddy are watching TV. I told him we could sleep in the living room and we told stories right before we went to sleep. This seemed to go over well.

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H stands by the idea that my son adores me and I am reading too much into his actions.

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Yuck. H may be absolutely correct that your son adores you but surely he can understand that doesn't excuse being discourteous and not acknowledging a simple greeting. Can't he? If he truly can't then he is stuck in a bad rut and really doesn't like himself. Shot in the dark here, but he and I have been alike in a lot of ways so far...does he have sleep apnea? That would explain being stuck in a rut.

The sleepover sounds great! Hopefully it will soften S4 a bit and make you less anxious about your relationship with him. He loves his mom and he needs you, too. You can take that to heart.

You could say, "H, I think we need to work on S4's manners. What do you think we could do to get him to be more courteous?"
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I've tried this. H stands by the idea that my son adores me and I am reading too much into his actions.

I saw that coming, I hate to tell ya.

Throw down the gauntlet. Kid disrespects you next time, and you say to H, "Well, don't just sit there like a lump! Your son just disrespected me. When are you finally going to do something about it?!!!"

And if H tells you you're reading too much into it:

"Don't YOU tell me what I should think and feel! Son is showing me blatant disrespect and this has gone on long enough! If you're not man enough to discipline your son and respect my feelings, then get the f*ck out!!!"

I wonder how he'd respond to a show of strength. Betcha he'd power struggle with you. But to me, that's an indication... someone who truly wants to have a great relationship, cares deeply about you, respects you... they're going to be concerned about your feelings, Heather, and will want to make sure you're OK. They're not going to argue against what you're feeling and treat you like you're insignificant. How he responds says a lot to me that I don't like.

So I say throw down the gauntlet. That is to say, challenge him to rise to the occasion. Appealing to his higher self to do the right thing might... might... get him to do the right thing. See what happens, and judge his actions accordingly: Is he with you or against you?


P.S. Good for you with your quality time with S. Do more of that and win him over

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Kid disrespects you next time, and you say to H, "Well, don't just sit there like a lump! Your son just disrespected me. When are you finally going to do something about it?!!!"

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Er...I'd be a little uncomfortable with that. You need to address the disrespect directly with your son. S4 needs to understand that you're every bit the authority figure that H is, and it's not just dad that he needs to listen to. H needs to back you up, therefore you and he need to come to the understanding that simple courtesy is important for kids to learn, and S4 should respond civilly to any greetings he may receive, most especially ones from you. If H has the position that S4 shouldn't have to do anything he doesn't feel like doing then you've got a long row to hoe. And please say H doesn't tell you you're being unreasonable right at that moment in front of S4. Sometimes it's okay for parents to disagree on discipline issues in front of the kids, but not in such a simple case as this.

You need to address the disrespect directly with your son.

We're not talking about disciplining the son here, though he stands being disciplined. The topic is about H's behaviors and attitudes of controlling and dismmissing Heather.

And please say H doesn't tell you you're being unreasonable right at that moment in front of S4.

Welcome to Heather's world.

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And please say H doesn't tell you you're being unreasonable right at that moment in front of S4.

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He will, but only at my prompting of course. And my prompting would be saying something to H along the lines of he should back me up here. Hence, I would be the one "picking the fight in front of the kids". See how that works?
The one thing I can say about my past behavior is that I have a quick temper. So, it is possible that the way I come across to H may be what puts him on the defensive. That's why I'm giving so much thought on how to change myself and my behaviors, so as not to instigate anything. I guess if it were the case, I would have to respect that not everyone responds well to an emotional upfront girl who isn't afraid to tell you what's on her mind. Maybe if I can take the emotional part out of it, I'd be better served in all areas of my life. I'm not a raging lunatic, I hate to paint such a portrait, but I could stand to use some monotone for sure. I wonder if any of my old high school history teachers could spare a lesson in monotone......

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S4 needs to understand that you're every bit the authority figure that H is, and it's not just dad that he needs to listen to.

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I see where you're coming from on this. Thing is S4, if being told different things (me through words, H through action or inaction) S4 will listen to his Dad. How can he possibly get into trouble for that? And I have no room to enforce without looking like the bad guy. And it all goes deeper than discipline.....it's about respect. You cannot make someone respect you even if he's only four. Right?

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If H has the position that S4 shouldn't have to do anything he doesn't feel like doing then you've got a long row to hoe.

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My H is pretty good about disciplining, S4 doesn't get to do whatever he wants. H would not have allowed S4 to treat his grandma that way. I even made that comparison to H at the time we discussed the "no greeting" incident. He said something like, she would be a guest or some crap, someone he doesn't see all the time. Naturally, I said WTH does that have to do with anything? H further justified S4's behavior by saying he was in the middle of watching a movie...so while H normally does well with discipline, when it comes to S4 and me, there is no doubt in my mind that he takes pleasure in watching me struggle, particularly if him and I are not getting along.

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H may be absolutely correct that your son adores you but surely he can understand that doesn't excuse being discourteous and not acknowledging a simple greeting.

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He certainly couldn't at the time. These things don't go one every day...the direct instances are few, I don't want to paint a worse picture than it is. S4 does not normally blatantly *DIS*respect me. There's just an underlying feeling that he doesn't respect me, as he shys from my affection, looks away when I'm talking to him as though he could care less what I'm saying even though I might be trying to ask about his day. This could be "normal" behavior for a 4 year old, as their attention spans are pretty short!! What makes it feel less than normal is that he seems to interact so much differently and better with Dad.

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Shot in the dark here, but he and I have been alike in a lot of ways so far...does he have sleep apnea? That would explain being stuck in a rut.

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Gosh, Bud, I don't know, but can you talk more about that? H is ALWAYS tired and has had what I would call a sleep disorder all his life.....

I wrote:
And please say H doesn't tell you you're being unreasonable right at that moment in front of S4.
And you responded:
He will,
...quite bad...
but only at my prompting of course
...not worst case but still bad. And I wouldn't call asking for help "prompting".

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I wonder if any of my old high school history teachers could spare a lesson in monotone......

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Ben Stein's got plenty to spare but he makes a lot of money with his...

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You cannot make someone respect you even if he's only four. Right?

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I'm not sure but I know you can make your son show you proper courtesy, which is a form of respect. If you greet S4 while he's on the couch and he ignores you, I think you want to be the one to try to correct his behavior. You don't want to add to an impression S4 may have that he only has to mind his dad. H should back you up but if he doesn't it's not the end of the world. If you then continue to take the appropriate steps with S4 to correct his behavior and H actively counters you then that's obviously very very bad. If H just continues to ignore the situation that ain't good but not awful, IMO. Can S4 get in trouble if you tell him one thing and H just sits there and doesn't back you up? He11 yes.

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H would not have allowed S4 to treat his grandma that way....Naturally, I said WTH does that have to do with anything?....when it comes to S4 and me, there is no doubt in my mind that he takes pleasure in watching me struggle, particularly if him and I are not getting along.

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H letting S4 treat you in a way he wouldn't let S4 treat grandma, (or maybe anyone else at all?) sets off flashing red lights in my mind the way nothing else had so far, until you brought up the idea that he enjoys seeing you struggle with S4, particularly if you're not getting along. I'm going to shout now, just to make myself feel better, so please don't take it personally. NOT ONLY IS HE PUTTING HIS PETTY FEELINGS IN FRONT OF YOUR NEEDS HE'S PUTTING THEM IN FRONT OF DOING WHAT YOUR SON NEEDS!!!! Okay, I feel a little better. This has really got to stop. I admire you for taking the approach that one person's behavior can change the R for both people. Just don't wait forever for him to change on critical issues like this.

I wrote H may be absolutely correct that your son adores you but surely he can understand that doesn't excuse being discourteous and not acknowledging a simple greeting. and you responded He certainly couldn't at the time. Does he now?

As for him being tired all the time that could be depression but it could certainly also be sleep apnea. You can google it and get good information, but basically sleep apnea is when you stop breathing during sleep and you have to wake up a little bit for your body to kick the breathing mechanism back on. This prevents you from getting enough deep, restorative sleep. I can remember sitting on the sofa watching some sporting event I didn't care about thinking to myself, "Why don't I feel like going out and doing something with the kids? It's 3:00 in the afternoon on a gorgeous Saturday and I'm watching some stupid crap I don't even care about?" I was always very protective of my sleep; I knew I couldn't really function well on fewer than 8 hours. But even when I got that much I started nodding off when we'd see movies at the theater. Eventually it got the point, about 3 years ago, when I actually started catching myself waking up to catch my breath when I was just starting to nod off in bed. I started going to bed late so I would be tired enough that I'd really crash and not notice the waking up. There are online quizzes a person can go through to see how likely they are to be suffering from sleep apnea.

There are two main types of sleep apnea: central and obstructive. Central is when your nervous system doesn't send your body the correct signals to breathe. It's very difficult to do much for central apnea. Obstructive apnea is caused by the airway being unable to keep itself open under the relaxed, lower air pressure conditions of sleep. Being overweight is a big contributor and I'm sure that's what made mine get worse and worse. It's possible I wouldn't have the problem any more, or maybe it would go away with 10 or 20 more lost pounds. But I also may have it no matter how good of shape I'm in. I use a CPAP at night, which is a machine that blows air in through my nose to keep the airway pressurized and open. It's worked wonders, but not as quickly as I'd hoped. I was thinking that I wasn't sleeping *too* badly without the machine, so maybe when I got it I'd be able to get SUPER SLEEP and get by with less, but that hasn't been the case. I can function well on six hours or so, though, which would have been the kiss of death in the pre-CPAP days. And I no longer get drowsy when driving, which is a big plus!

Anyway, if you notice H seeming to gasp for air (not a huge gasp, just significantly more than normal breathing) when sleeping on a frequent basis, it would definitely be worthwhile to try to get him into a sleep study, where they monitor you all night and tell you if you need treatment. 5 apneas an hour is considered acceptable. I had 5 apneas an hour when sleeping on my side but 50 apneas an hour when sleeping on my back. They wanted to see if I could get by with just sleeping on my side, but that kind of shifted the problem to where I was worse on my side. So I went back for a second test where they hooked me up to a CPAP to see how much it helped. It was night and day, and two weeks later I had my machine. I won't say I was bursting with energy after that, but I at least got the place where if I felt like doing something (i.e. playing outside with the kids on a nice day) I'd do it instead of feeling glued to the sofa. Now that I've lost the weight as well, I hate sitting on the sofa for long periods.

Anyway, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a consistent lack of sleep tends to make someone selfish with their physical, mental and emotional energy. You just feel like you can't take on anyone's issues and you try to strip away as many requirements from your life as you can. So it's certainly worth looking into in H's case. And there are other sleep disorders that can be uncovered in a sleep study, so even if it isn't apnea it may be worth checking into.

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If you then continue to take the appropriate steps with S4 to correct his behavior and H actively counters you then that's obviously very very bad.

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I don't think H openly counters me unless I start by saying something directly to H as opposed to saying something directly to S4. If H and I aren't getting along, and I try to correct S4 with something, I can expect an eyeroll or a look of contempt. If we've been getting along, like on this past Saturday, it seems I just get silence.

Since I've never focused on the interactions much between H and I (as opposed to my emotions about the interactions), it's hard to remember the past in terms of what behavior begets what behavior. Now I'm keeping better notes.

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I wrote H may be absolutely correct that your son adores you but surely he can understand that doesn't excuse being discourteous and not acknowledging a simple greeting. and you responded He certainly couldn't at the time. Does he now?

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Can you think of a tactful way to bring it up without making it sound like I'm stirring up trouble? I could ask him. My theory is that he feels if we are fighting he owes me absolutely nothing. I have wavered between leaving and staying and during the times I chose to distance myself from H, he sent the message that he would not support me in any way. That includes with the kids.

Even just Sunday, we got into an argument where he made it clear I should expect nothing of him. I said something like "I know you won't support my karate class, so I don't know why I'm relying on you for whatever this is that I'm relying on you for...." (which btw, was hoping for a yeah, you should try to go today b/c we don't have anything else planned). He said "That's right, don't rely on me for anything.". I said "I don't really rely on you for anything, don't read too much into that statement." Basically the argument was about me indicating I'd like to go to the 2pm karate class Sunday afternoon, I thought I made it clear I was gonna try to go if we didn't have anything else going on at 2. We went to lunch and were debating going anywhere else.....H decided we needed to go to the toy store to look for a particular toy for S4 that we've been unable to find. I was irritated. We go toy shopping every damn weekend, in addition to the toys that H brings home for the kids on Fridays. We've looked for these particular toys at several different stores.....I told him I'd like to go home and possibly go to karate. We got into an argument and that's where the above statements come in. Same ole, same ole.

The sleep apnea is definitely something I will ask him about. He and I haven't slept in the same bed for over a year now (his choice), but I seem to remember him waking himself up at various points in the night. He has had trouble waking up all his life. He failed out of college because he "couldn't" wake up and go to classes. I just attributed it to lack of motivation and the fact that he stays up until all hours of the night doesn't help. He's a night owl by his own admission. It's interesting though, I wonder if I could talk him into a sleep study......I could tell him he'd have more energy to go toy shopping