Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Learning to Trust Myself

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BTW, that "agreement", originating from your H, was about him tagging along when you go out so as to curtail any suspicious activity on your part, I'd imagine, right? That's like a band aid when it comes to repairing a relationship, isn't it?

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Yeah, that's exactly where the agreement stemmed from. And I suppose it is like a band aid. But, wouldn't it be my responsibility to comply if I want to rebuild trust? We're talking about bars here, really "going out", not like a movie or something with a girlfriend. I didn't think he was being unreasonable, so I agreed.

But, wouldn't it be my responsibility to comply if I want to rebuild trust?

Reassurance and transparency are needed to help rebuild trust, I think. But you can't live attached to the hip. Have to go about building trust in a healthy viable way, not a paranoiac way, no?

Besides, chaperoning isn't going to rebuild trust. All it can do is assure that no hank panky is occurring while being chaperoned. That's not in the category of rebuilding trust.

Rather than have a chaperone on any excursion (how does that make you feel anyway?), it may be better to have your cell phone available and if H needs reassurance, he can call you anytime, anywhere. He can also be informed as to where you're going and when you'd be back, so he doesn't sit around fretting about where you are.

I know from your karate class experience that the above suggestions are probably not sufficient for your H, but I feel that's because he wants so much control that he's not satisfied with any solution that treats you as an equal and responsible adult.

We're talking about bars here, really "going out", not like a movie or something with a girlfriend. I didn't think he was being unreasonable, so I agreed.

The point is not the perceived degree of his "going out" but rather, to honor the commitment he himself imposed. If he doesn't honor it in the least way, then he can't be trusted with anything more serious, IMO. Again, not that I think this is a viable agreement, mind you.

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Reassurance and transparency are needed to help rebuild trust, I think. But you can't live attached to the hip. Have to go about building trust in a healthy viable way, not a paranoiac way, no?

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Yeah, I totally agree. But what I meant when I said "we're talking about bars here, really going out, not like a movie or something with a girlfriend", I was talking about what he was asking of me, not the lie that he told. Basically, the agreement was that we would not go to bars, concerts, etc. without the other person, heavy social situations. Do you still think that's being paranoid?

I think in practice, he means for the agreement to go much deeper, i.e. my karate class is a great example of that as you eluded to. But I won't let him take it too far. Part of what I've learned about the time I lost my mind was that "going out" in and of itself wasn't "bad". But it was putting my vulnerable self (b/c my marriage was shaky I was vulnerable) into situations where bad things could happen even though I wasn't seeking out bad things. So I agreed to the arrangement. All in all, I don't regret it, but I get jabs about it from my sister and a friend of mine from home (Michigan) who will ask if I "can" go out. Whatever, they need to be supportive, if they can't be then fine. I just avoid their questions and the underlying implication. I think you can tell I struggle with the "reasonableness" of the request and my independence. But from what I've read, that is normal and everything seems to say I should honor his request. I'd like to hear more of your viewpoint now that I've clarified that he's never said I can't go anywhere without him.

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Rather than have a chaperone on any excursion (how does that make you feel anyway?),

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We don't go anywhere. That's part of the joke in the arrangement. Basically the arrangement says I can't go to heavy social situations because H flat out won't go, rarely ever has. I made plans to go out with my siblings a few months ago (May I think)and I let H know way in advance so that he could plan on attending. Well, as soon as we get to the bar, my brother being the self centered guy that he is (and he's NEVER like my H anyway), picks up the latest issue of a local music newspaper, proceeds to flip to the article and picture on his band to show my sister. OM for me is the singer in this band. So, 10 minutes into our excursion, it turns into a total freakin nightmare. My H stands up, says something like "I can't believe this" and walks away. I still don't know what I should have done in that situation, but I'm guessing I did everything wrong b/c I didn't go after him. He would not leave though, followed us from bar to bar although he wouldn't have anything to do with us socially. After I'd had too much to drink I found him and told him if he was just going to stalk me he could feel free to leave. I've left out a few expletives in this narration. He flat out told me he needed to keep an eye on me and he may have called me a slut. Can't remember, but he has used that term describe me and I'm pretty sure this was one of them. Anyway, the night turned worse later, with my brother insisting on taking us to one of the bar where he plays (the bar where I first kissed OM and H knows that). I talked to my brother beforehand about keeping the territory neutral, but like I said, he can be an a@@. Well, by the time he brought up going, I had enough to drink to skew my thoughts and my drunk self thought "well, H is already being a jerk, I might as well go". So the cab dropped H off at home and he gets out and says "so are you coming with me or going with them?" I said "you really expect me to choose......I'm going with them." Bad move, huh? I know it was. The cab gets three blocks away and H calls me on my cell phone and tells me if I go "that's it. your kids-half the time". I hang up and immediately tell the cab driver to let me out and I leave my siblings in the cab wondering what the he!! H said to me. So, later that night he ended up calling the police on me for domestic violence, which would be funny if it was funny, which it's not. That Monday is when I signed the D papers.

You must think we're absolutely crazy. Our interactions are so trashy since the A, it's not even funny.

Heather, I don't think it's worthwhile to ruminate the nuances of your sitch. This is going to go on forever, he's never going to stop.

He's abusing you, Heather, and has been for a long, long time. He tries to control, dominate and manipulate you. He doesn't see his effect on others, but only sees how others impact on him. You're never going to be happy in that environment.

If you guys went to a marriage counselor, they should pick up on that and have individual counseling for him to overcome those behaviors.

That's it. Gotta get to the root of your relationship problems rather the symptoms and band aids and nuances of if it's a bar as opposed to a karate class. And if he doesn't want to do that, I think you'd be much, much happier alone, and certainly it's better to be available for someone to come along who won't act like that with you in a relationship. I'll bet my bottom dollar that if you met someone who treated you as an equal, you'd say "I should've done this sooner".

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Heather, I don't think it's worthwhile to ruminate the nuances of your sitch.

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Your question of how it made me feel that H insisted on being my chaffeuer brought me to the one time we've ever tried to exercise it. These instances are humiliating so it's generally easier *not* to talk about it.....

I don't know what else to say. This is my life. Welcome to it or not I guess...at least until I'm ready to leave.

What I meant was that I don't think that the answers to these nuances are the answers to your problems.

I know.....I really do understand what you're saying. I can't reflect on past interactions to shed any light on how to handle future interactions, that much is clear. Our past is dysfunctonal. No question. The past does have a place in my emotional filing cabinet, maybe what you're saying is that I just need to leave it in the cabinet. For the most part, I entirely agree. I'll work on it.

Going forward, my goal is to change my behavior so that our interactions won't be so dysfunctional. Like you've said on other posts, spouses will fight change. I think that's what H is doing. He's fighting to keep it dysfuctional and by doing so, the emotional charge of our interactions have actually heightened.

It doesn't sound like you have much faith that I can fix it. And maybe I can't. But I haven't gotten to the point where I can say "I haven't reacted in [fill in time frame, as long as I can handle it!!!] and H still hasn't gotten the picture that I'm not playing the game anymore". But first I have to do a really, really good job of demonstrating that I'm not playing the game anymore.

I need your help demonstrating that. Don't give up on me!!

Heather-
I don't know the entire sitch..I've only read this thread. Sounds to me like you do want to make your M work, and it's proving tough. Apparently there was OM for you and H is still reacting to this.
I just want to remind everyone- your H doesn't have the skills DBing has taught to cope with this. H is responding terribly maybe, but he is really hurting. Heather, there are lots and lots of support groups for spouses that have been cheated on. Not as many the other way around, as I guess, you've probably noticed. Would your H benefit from having some sources to help him cope?
H obviously has not chosen to end the M, or he wouldn't be there.
Re: the bar night. I can understand why your H was upset with the picture of OM, probably with your brother not caring...it makes your H feel like the hurt he has felt is unacknowledged or belittled. It isn't. It's real. And when you choose to go to that bar where you met OM over H, (yes, you realized and changed your mind, which was good), he felt like...there she goes...disregarding my hurt over this.
Heather, DO NOT take his anger, his mistrust, etc. personal. He must want to be with you or he wouldn't want to be there. He is reacting to the circumstance. And reacting in ways many of us DBer's have acted before we learned better coping skills.
This is going to take some strength, some swallowing of pride, some understanding on your part. That is much the same as us on the other side of the sitch. I think you have to tolerate some of his emotional outbursts...not to say you should create a R with that...but what are YOU doing during these times? Acknowledge. Validate. Say you are sorry over and over. Be patient. Go the extra mile. Before you guys try to fix everything all at once...let your H deal with the emotions created by the choice you made. That's my input. Good luck. If you aren't ready to give up, don't.
Heather, I think you must think through the method or plan you are going to use to start turning your sitch. around. Remember, you can help change the R by changing you. What are you doing here? What things would you like to change and how can you change the dynamic? Remember, you can only have control over how you respond, how you act. Your H has not forgiven yet. This is a roadblock that may take some time.
BTW, I applaud you for doing what you are doing. WAS's are generalized here some...patterns seem to be consistent. But you are not the typical WAS. You are obviously really putting effort into objectively looking at your sitch, taking ownership for your part, etc. Give yourself a real pat on the back for this. It is something most of us here don't even allow ourselves to hope for from our WAS's.

Wow. Your husband sounds an awful lot like me four months ago except maybe a little more extreme (I haven't locked anybody in a laundry room). Pretty childish and probably more insecure than we'd like to believe or ever let anybody know. Funny, if my W had just kissed somebody and then regretted it, instead of being ready to leave me and the kids and completely falling for Om, I'd probably have developed an overwrought sense of justice and shielded myself with that instead of figuring out I was living wrong and needed to change NOW.

I'd love to sit down with him and see if he could learn from my mistakes. I'm trying to figure out if there would have been any way I would have accepted help/advice from somebody who knew better back when I was 31 (or even when I was 36). I dunno. Maybe there's a way.

Also, you see him a lot like my wife saw/sees me, especially the part about not caring anything about her. I assure you that was only partially true. I didn't realize how much I cared about her and I didn't realize how much she needed to know I cared about her. I thought she should just know, and it was silly to expect anything more. So I doubt his real feelings toward you are as negative as you believe, but I don't doubt he doesn't know how important it is for him to make you believe he loves you and cares about you. He may even think it's stupid for it to be so important.

He's got a long way to go, just like I did. I hope he or you guys together figure out a way to get him there. If I come up with anything helpful, I'll let you know.

P.S. I absolutely would be willing to sit down and talk with him (or email or whatever). But I don't know if that would make things better or worse.

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Would your H benefit from having some sources to help him cope?

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You bet he would. But will he actually seek out any help? No. Would he accept help if it was offered? No. My H is very indignant and honestly respects very few people. I guess to get through this he will either have to dramatically change himself or box everything up and put it away. He'll probably choose the latter. Unfortunately for me, I think the latter bypasses forvigeness.

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Remember, you can help change the R by changing you.

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I'm counting on it. See, my H has had tendencies to be, well, the way he's being since day one in our R. Literally day one. Since the A, he feels justified in giving that side of himself more face time with me. H really does have some issues with anger, self esteem and control that go back as long as I've known him. So, I'm not sure that changing myself can change H in this regard.
But there is the other side to H, which is why I'm still with him I guess. This is the side I try to be understanding for and know that he still has a lot of unprocessed emotions and has been hurt in the deepest way by someone who was supposed to be his best friend.
The tricky part is to fight for that side of my H while letting the other half know he is no longer welcome in my life.

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What things would you like to change and how can you change the dynamic?

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I need to gain greater self control. Control over my reactions, control over my instigations, control over my temper. I need to repeat a mantra that says "I will not be provoked, I will not be provoked".

I need to lessen my expectations. I need to recognize the punishments I'm being given for what they are and simply ignore them rather than expecting the punishments to stop.

I need to be more appreciative. Of everything and everyone, not just H. I need to compliment more and count my blessings. I have to make sure that H doesn't cloud the way I look at the world and I have to make sure that I don't blame him when I'm unhappy. My happiness is my job now, not his.

I need to rebuild trust, which shouldn't be too hard to practice b/c I'm a trustworthy person....who did something bad. But aside from repeating that, there isn't much I have to vow not to do anymore....I'm an open book, always have been.

Any other ideas? I will need lots of practical guidance and advice on self control. Many of the things my H had done would make anyone mad....I need really good ideas on how to NOT let him get to me. Hopefully he will see that his old methods aren't working and try new ones. But Michele's observations on cheeseless tunnels in DR doesn't give me much hope that he will change his ways any time soon even when he stops getting cheese. I don't know if I can do this....

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You are obviously really putting effort into objectively looking at your sitch, taking ownership for your part, etc.

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Thank you very much. My kids deserve every minute I spend trying to make this work. The day I have to look into their eyes and tell them they will have two homes....well I don't want to go there right now.....

Thanks!!!