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Hi JV - Firstly, I'm sorry to hear H has moved out and you have the cramps to boot Me too by the way, day 4 today

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I'm unsure about how to handle all the hugs and kisses from H now that he's out. Do I accept some and not others? Or do I accept all or none? Hmmm.....I really don't know. I know that one of his LLs is PT.

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From what I remember with NG, he certainly appreciated the affection, the hugs. BUT, don't hang around when he visits. Make other plans so he knows that if he does not buck up, make a commitment to you, and come home, there are other options for you.

Wishing you a fab time at sister's. Slowly

Hi JV. I think your new subject line is perfect! It's time that JV took care of JV!

I'm so impressed with the way you are handling your sitch. It's incredibly hard to know what is right and wrong. You are inspiring all of us and we know you can do this! It will take time though for your H to truly see what is at stake and that your R can't continue on it's current path. Unfortunately, a couple of days isn't going to resolve all of the issues.

Be strong JV. It'll all work itself out and you'll be so much happier having done what is right for you and your kids. I sincerely hope that your M will come out of this stronger and balanced.

Cheers, Scottisheart

Take care!

Hey there, everyone . I truly appreciate all the visits and support from you all. Now I just need the lock monster to visit my old thread .

D -- Thanks for the thumbs up on the way I handled things the other day . I worried then about what was right or wrong to do, but now I believe that I handled it right.

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...I will say that I think this separation has been a long time coming.

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I've thought this, too. It's not what I hoped for, but I had a feeling for awhile now that this probably needed to happen.

I remember a few posts to me when I was still over in "Infidelity" about how if and when H left, it didn't mean it was the end of the world and the fear of H leaving was far worse than the actual act. Needless to say, they were right. I finally let go of that fear and just let it happen, and it REALLY was easier than I thought it would be.

You're right, D. Whichever way my sitch goes, I WILL get through it just as all others do . And yes, I agree -- now it's time to make the best of MY life !

Thanks again, D! You know you rock !

Slowly -- First, I'd like to thank you for linking this thread to the end of my old one. That was very considerate of you, and I appreciate it greatly .

Second, I'm sorry to hear about your cramps, too. Awful, aren't they?

Lastly, thanks for your thoughts and advice about H's affection. I will try to make plans to be elsewhere when he comes over to see the boys. Maybe I'll just go and enjoy some therapeutic shopping for a couple of hours. Ooooh -- or maybe I'll make an appt at my favorite day spa here ! YES!!! That is what I'll do! I haven't gone in over a year, and I've only gone twice in the year before that. Hmmm.....I think I'm way overdue .

You're right -- there ARE other options for me !

cally -- Thanks for dropping in again . LOL!!! You sounded just like my sisters did yesterday!

I agree that I DO need to distance myself. I need to detach again to bring about changes in myself as well as in H, but I don't think I want to cut off the affection. I want H to continue feeling comfortable with it, and the way that I'm giving him that comfort is this -- I'm trying to look at this like being a very close and dear friend. When your dearest friend needs a very much needed hug, don't you give it to him/her? And in your hug, aren't you saying, "I care about you, I'm here for you, and you have my support."? That's the feeling and message I want to continue giving H in my hug when he initiates them.

The kisses -- Well they're not passionate or anything like that. Umm...it's hard to really describe them, but I guess I could say that they are nice little pecks that say, "Love ya." Now, I CAN tell that H wants them to be more than that. I can tell he wants a really intimate smooch , but I'm not for that. At least not right now. He will have to settle for the nice "friendly" little pecks from me for now. If he can't and says so, well....then he's only going to push ME away.

Scottisheart -- Good to hear from you !

I know what's at stake here, so yes, it's time for H to find out. It's time for H to know and realize it.

But more importantly, IT'S JV'S TIME!

I'm not saying H is getting shut out completely because I would still very much like for this M to survive. I'm just saying that I finally realize that it is time for me to focus on me and me alone. I'm trying not to worry about H all the time anymore.

It's not going to be easy, but I can learn.

Ok now. I've got boys to tend to , so I'll be back later to post about yesterday. I did tell my sisters about everything, and once again, H tried to get me to tell him to come home. H also wrote me a letter -- he only tends to do that when he wants to write down his TRUE feelings. I think in our 12 years together, H wrote me a total of 4 letters including this one.

Thanks for listening.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

Journaling:

Had a great time yesterday for the 4th with my family . We went to Folsom Lake for the first half of the day, and geez -- it was so hot out there ! Luckily my sister went out and bought one of those pop-up canopies for shade, and there was also a gentle breeze from time to time .

Sooo, I was waiting for the "right" time to talk to my sisters (only 2 were there -- I have 3). They did ask me where H, S9, and S5 were at. I would've liked to tell them then, but my nephews and nieces were around every moment. I just told them the boys were with their Dad and doing something else today (yesterday). I could tell they wanted to say something but didn't.

Finally, the guys went out on the boat and took all the kids with them (except, of course, for the baby and my 4-year-old niece), so I told my sisters the whole entire sitch. They were a little shocked at first. Then they told me what they thought. They were upset and a bit angry, but they kept their cool.

My sister "P" told me, "It's your life, JV. Whatever you want, that's what we want for you, too. BUT DO NOT let H think that he can come back that easily if and when he wants to. He's a grown a** man, and he needs to act like one. All these responsibilities he has weren't just dumped into his lap one day. This is life. This is marriage. He has a W who stays home all day, everyday, to take care of his children, and they are wonderful children. He has a W who cleans for him, cooks for him, does his laundry, makes sure all his bills are paid on time, and is ALWAYS home for him. He has no idea how good he's got it! Let him stay home with the kids and do everything you do day after day after day while you go out to work. Let him do what you do and see what he thinks about it. See how much he likes it when you're gone all the time and tell him YOU deserve to go out because you're the breadwinner, and he can love it or leave it. If he didn't want kids, then he didn't need to be all up in you ( ), did he?! He didn't need to talk to you about having a 2nd and a 3rd kid, did he?! He's a grown a** man, JV. Leave his a** out there so he can know what life is really like without you and the boys." P also said to call her up anytime if I needed a sitter or just wanted to get together to go out (she is M, too).

My sister "J" told me pretty much the same thing. She said that she is there for me anytime. J also told me, "DO NOT let him make you feel like you did this, JV! Don't you dare blame yourself for this! You deserve better than this. He screwed up, and yes, I'm sure you had some fault in the breakdown, too, but you did not ruin his life for him. He has control over what goes on in his life, not you, so if he feels it's ruined, then he has no one to blame but himself. Don't let him put it all on you and make you feel like s**t. You don't deserve that!"

My mom was right there, too, and told my sisters that she was getting angry with me for putting up with all this, but she's been biting her tongue because she knew I was trying to make things work. She also said that I should just end it and get the D going now. My sisters nodded in agreement, but I said, "You know, I told myself a long time ago that if my H ever cheated on me, then that was it. His a** was out.....but when it really happened, I couldn't go through with it. I started thinking about everything I have built in my life with H, and I did not want to just throw it all away, and neither did he. It's been one very rough ride.....but we have gotten along so much better. Before, I use to get really angry with him, and when we'd argue, it usually was a yelling match and we were always pointing fingers. It's not like that anymore. We talk. We CALMLY talk to each other even if we're still in disagreement. H is more caring now, too, and he's not shutting me out anymore either. He's talking to me about how he feels like he used to.......right now, I do see some good changes in the both of us, but there's still a lot that's just not right......I also told myself and H that the very moment he walked out that door, then that also was it. He'd better go and file for a D because there was NO WAY I was going to let him come back after not knowing what he had been up to while he was gone.....but again, I'm not so sure that that's what I really want now. I don't know. I feel like I'm on the fence, and I could go either way."

Then J said to me, "Then just give each other a lot of space right now. Use this time for YOU, JV. Build that self-esteem of yours back up. Call me and P up, we'll get (J's H) and (P's H) to watch all the kids, and you know they will, then you, me, and P will all go out for the night. We'll call T (my other sister) ahead of time so she can come, too. We'll have a girls' night out or we'll have a spa day like we did before. But most importantly, you've got to get back what H took away from you -- your self-esteem. Do what you've been wanting to do. Go back to school, learn something new that you would enjoy doing as a career or just as a hobby, go out and pamper yourself -- but not without us -- and you know what else? Put those kids on H more. Tell him you've got plans and things to do, so he has to watch them. They ARE his kids, too, and he needs to get a taste of what it is you do everyday with them so he CAN appreciate you more and stop taking you for granted. Let's make plans to go away for a weekend, just us girls, and give him plenty of notice so he can watch them. You don't have to tell him where you're going or what you're doing. Just tell him you need a break for a weekend. Show him that you're not going to sit around and wait for him any longer, ok? If he really wants to work things out like he says he does, then it shouldn't be a problem."

J also said, "I don't think he takes you seriously enough at all either......I think you should write out a list of what he needs to do to show you that he really wants to be with you, and then give it to him. He needs to get some C, JV. You know it, and he knows it. Tell him to go to C, find a job closer to home or let him do the poker thing as long as $5K is all that's going to be risked, and tell him there needs to be at least 2 days a week that are dedicated to just the family. The family is important, JV. You and the boys are important. You're not just responsibilities, and if he can't realize any of that, then he doesn't deserve you guys."

Whew ....is this long enough yet ?

The other half of the day was just as fun. We went back to J's house and bbq'ed then did fireworks just after dark. Then everyone started packing up and heading out around 10:30pm. My sisters hugged me and told me to call them anytime for anything. Then I was on my way home (45 minute drive). When I got into my truck, I noticed there were 5 missed calls for the day on my cell... .

I'll continue my journaling in a bit. MIL is here to pick up S9 and S5 to visit with her for awhile.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

Journaling (cont.):

Alright now.....so there were 5 missed calls, and I'm ASSuming they were all from H (I've got the basic plan so no caller ID). I called his cell and he answered. I asked if he had called me, and H said, "Yeah! I've been trying all day to get a hold of you. What's going on? I thought you'd be here (at the house) already." I reminded H that I told him we probably wouldn't do fireworks until after 9pm when it was dark, so I would be back pretty late. H said, "Well, I wasn't expecting you to get home at midnight." I told him, "H, I told you I was going to be back very late, and it's not going to be midnight when I get there either." H said, "Alright, I'm sorry....(sigh)....What did you guys do?" I told him then he asked if I talked to my sisters, and I said yes I did. H wanted to know what they had to say, but I told him I wasn't going to discuss it with him. He asked why not, and I told him because I just wasn't going to do that and that's all there was to it. He left it alone.

I didn't want to tell him because I knew what kind of reaction I would get from him, and I didn't want it. I know he would've said something along the lines of, "Well screw them all! I don't care what anybody thinks. Just let them know that I'll go ahead and leave you alone then."

So then H told me about what he and the boys did for the day. H took them swimming all day then they went to the central city park for the fireworks show. I told H it sounded like they had a really good time and thanked him again for having the boys. H also said he felt like a really good dad today (yesterday).

Now, I have to admit that I was rather short with H over the phone, but it wasn't intentional. H had picked up on it (duh!) and asked why I seemed mad at him. I told H, "I'm not mad at you, H, ok? Not at all. I'm just really tired from being out in the sun all day, and I just want to get home, and I'm driving through all this traffic right now. It's got nothing to do with you." H said, "Alright, I'm sorry." I told him he had nothing to be sorry for, and I would see him when I got to the house.

I finally got home just before 11:30pm. I walked inside and went to put the baby in his crib, and I didn't see H anywhere. The boys were in bed, so where the heck was he??? Oh well.

I went to get all the stuff out of the truck, and when I came back inside, H was sitting at the kitchen counter writing something. I was putting things away and when he was done, H started following me around like a little lost puppy (???). He seemed to be in another very clingy mood.

I went into the bedroom to change and locked the door behind me because I didn't want him coming in there. I don't feel that's right anymore. Like I thought he would, H followed me to the room and tried to open the door but then realized it was locked. H knocked and asked, "Can I come in?" I told him no because I was changing. H said, "Ok....why can't I come in?" I told him to please just let me finishing dressing and I'd be out in a few seconds. When I opened the door, he was still standing there. I tried to walk past him, but he grabbed my hand and led me back into the room. H tried to get me to lay down with him because he said he wanted to talk, but I told him, "No. We can talk in the living room." So I went there and he followed.

H again tried to get me to tell him what my sisters had to say about all this, and I said to him, "H, for the last time, I'm not telling you. If you keep pushing it, it's just going to make me get angry with you, and I don't want that to happen, so please. Drop it." H said alright and he was sorry again.

Then he told me that he doesn't care what anyone had to say. All that mattered to him was for everyone to know that no matter what happens with us, he will take care of his responsibilities. H said everything will stay the same as far as us (the boys and me) remaining in the house, he will pay all the bills, and I will not have to work.

Then H said he was off to "work" (poker) unless I wanted him to stay. H said it like he was hoping I would ask him to stay, but I told him, "Alright. Good luck! Go make some money!" I was sitting on the couch and he leaned over me to give me a hug. H also gave me another kiss. He tried to make it "special", but I only gave him a nice peck.

H said he would talk to me tomorrow, and he wanted to take the boys with him to take MIL out for a birthday dinner. I told him ok and to just call to let me know when they needed to be ready. H said ILY, and I said, "Alright, love ya, too." H also asked me to remember to keep the phone next to me tonight, and I said, "Ok...I'll try." Didn't feel like giving him too much reassurance there. Hmmm....too late ? Nah, I think I did fine.

So after H left, I went over to the counter and saw a piece of paper folded in half with "XXXXXXX" (my name) on it. It said:

XXXXXXX,

Today I was in Wendy's eating with the kids and this song came on the speaker system from the "American Pie" movie. I just know part of the lyrics. It goes, "So, say you'll stay, " something like that. You know the song.

It brought back a specific memory of you and me at the Boomtown buffet. It was playing on their speakers at the time, and I just remember sitting there, eating my lobster, looking at you, and feeling so happy.

I don't know why but this really hit me today. I almost started crying.

I'm so sorry for everything. I hope you really know I love you and I hope in the end that we find these two people in the picture.

I love you.

XXXXX

There was a picture included with this note. It was one of H and I on a rollercoaster at Great America. We had to be about 19 or 20 then. The coaster was in motion, we were so elated, and we were holding hands.

..... ..... I miss that.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

In the beginning of all of this, I never wanted a S. It was either the M or a D. No ifs, ands, or buts. Period.

In the beginning, H wanted a S. He really wanted time apart but not a D.

Now that it has happened, I feel it was the right choice. Tonight, H said, "I feel like this (the S) is a BIG mistake. I wish I could just come home. Everything will be better.".......(sigh).......ugh.

I'm feeling smothered because H is constantly calling me whether it's on the house phone or on my cell. If I don't answer the house phone, he calls my cell IMMEDIATELY. Then when I don't answer my cell, he calls the house again right away!

So to ease his anxiety, I answer or call back. H wants to know every little detail of what I've been doing, if "anyone's" at the house (what the ???), why didn't I answer the phone(s), and what are my plans for the rest of the day and/or tomorrow.

H has been here EVERYDAY since he "left" -- I don't even feel like he's actually left! He will stick around for a few hours then leave when he's ready to "work" (play poker). It's as if he still lives here, but he's spending the night at a friend's.....every night.

H wants the constant reassurance that I'm here and nowhere else. He wants a hug and a kiss EVERYTIME he's here, and he wants more than just a few of them. I also am asked to keep the phone right next to me during the night.....every night.

I don't know, but I thought a S meant that you don't come over and hang around and call all day, everyday. You don't ask if you're still loved ALL THE TIME. You don't do all this during a S -- at least not when you're only 3 or 4 days into one!

I WANT SPACE, and I thought that's what H wanted, too, but he is acting otherwise.

How do I tell him this??? How do I tell him without pushing him away too much??? Is that even possible???

If it continues this way, I don't see how anything will get any better. I don't see how H can truly realize what's at stake here.

I'm feeling pressured, I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm feeling suffocated, I'm feeling smothered.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

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I don't know, but I thought a S meant that you don't come over and hang around and call all day, everyday.

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I WANT SPACE, and I thought that's what H wanted, too, but he is acting otherwise

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JV, I'm sorry is this JV?,

Woman you have come a long way. I tease you about your epic posts, but I know that deep down, that is your therapy. And if that is what you need to do to feel better, then I'll read them 'til George W. Bush balances the budget!! .

JV, I'm not cheering the fact that your marriage is unhinged, and I'd never be thrilled with the split-up (even if temporary) of your home, but I am so proud of you right now. You stood up finally for JV. You are the one putting her foot down. JV, I know it seems hard, maybe even wrong right now but you have grown because of it.

When I started reading your story months ago it was all about your H doing whatever he wants and you frankly were unsure of what to do and how to handle him. Over time, you have built up this, this strength, and now it is showing.

I know there might be some out here that think I'm pro-you guys splitting. I'M NOT. I'm pro JV becoming a stronger JV and that is simply what I see. I apologize for being honest folks but I can almost hear confidence creeping in to your writings JV.

OK, I'm on your thread so I naturally am writing a long post. Oh well, you know what they say, "When in Rome..."

JV, have a great night and let those calls go to VoiceMail. Isn't VM a wonderful invention?!

I'm giddy for you JV!!

DMF! YEAH!

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Now that it has happened, I feel it was the right choice. Tonight, H said, "I feel like this (the S) is a BIG mistake. I wish I could just come home. Everything will be better.".......(sigh).......ugh.

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I think in the past couple of days he has missed the fact that he use to have a home to come to and sleep. A wife that cooked and cleaned and did everything. A wife he could call and piss and moan to about everything. I think above all he is fearful that you may move on. Deep down he has to know he treats you like crap. I know he says it but I think it is just something he says. I think right noiw he may also be fearful YOU will ralize you desreve better and like the time apart from him. It is VERY evident through this seperation that your husband is a VERY CONTROLLING person. Just reread some of things you are going through to see just how manipulative and controlling he is......

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H is constantly calling me whether it's on the house phone or on my cell. If I don't answer the house phone, he calls my cell IMMEDIATELY. Then when I don't answer my cell, he calls the house again right away

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H wants to know every little detail of what I've been doing, if "anyone's" at the house (what the ???), why didn't I answer the phone(s), and what are my plans for the rest of the day and/or tomorrow.

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He will stick around for a few hours then leave when he's ready to "work" (play poker).

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Oh and by the way take notive JV...he is calling this work now. Another thing to manipulate you because he has a gambling problem and wants what he wants. He needs to find a real job. Not this kind of lifestyle when he has a gambling problem.

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H wants the constant reassurance that I'm here and nowhere else. He wants a hug and a kiss EVERYTIME he's here, and he wants more than just a few of them. I also am asked to keep the phone right next to me during the night.....every night.

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Then you asked.....

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How do I tell him this??? How do I tell him without pushing him away too much??? Is that even possible???

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I would come right out and tell him JV that you have been hurt that this is NOT what you want in a marriage. Tell him you need time to think about things and you NEED some space while thinking things through. Ask him to set up a visitation schedule with the kid's. Where he will pick them up and drop them off. Come out and tell him also what your boundaries are. Your sisters idea was GREAT! Also let him know that during your seperation if he is to sleep with another woman then don't bother coming back. Because you don't and won't want him knowing that you may have to worry you could contract a disease that could kill you. Be very blunt and out there that he HAS hurt you. That your ego has been damaged. That the things he has said has been hurtful and mean and you need time to sort through things to see if this marriage should continue. I would let him know that you are on the fence about the marriage by stating you need time. But it also shows you are still in the marriage and not out completely.

JV in your posts I do see great strength coming out. Because for so long in your posts I can see where you let him walk all over you. He is manipulative and controlling and will try to pull out all the stops right now to try and weasel his way back. But be strong and stand your ground. It will take some time and distance apart from you to make him change. This has been a habit he has formed with you and all habits won't go away in days. It takes time. But the biggest 180 I think you could do right now is to show your strength and consistently tell things like you are not keeping that phone by you because you are seperated. You do not have to answer to him because you are seperated. So ask him to stop asking you about your whereabouts or who is at your house. Ask him not call unless it has to do with the children. The more ypou distace JV I think the more he will realize what is at stake.

You ARE doing great! Glad to hear you had a nice time with your family! They sound loving and so supportive. Take your sisters advice they sound awesome and very smart! Everyone around you can see how you deserve so much better then what you have been getting.

Journaling:

About yesterday....

I felt really out of it . Just tired and not very motivated to do anything. I was basically a vegetable for the whole day .

The boys were gone for most of the day (except for the baby). They were with my parents then MIL came for her turn with them .

I guess H had been handling service calls yesterday and was of course calling the house all day again. I only answered twice out of his 10 phone calls, and they consisted of the same old stuff -- "what are you doing? what are you going to do? why haven't you called me? I miss you...do you miss me? ILY...do you love me? I know you hate me, don't you? But I still LY. I feel this is all wrong, and I just want to come home."

H called around 5pm and asked if he could use the fax machine for work. I told him that was fine.

He got here about 6pm and started on his paperwork while playing with the baby every now and then, and the hugs and kisses were still coming from him.

I was in the kitchen at one point and saw a flyer on the counter for a house-for-sale in Rocklin. I asked H, "What's this?" H told me he picked it up when he was out on his first service call. He said, "I don't know....I was just thinking it would be nice to sell this house, move out there because it's a really nice area, and just start all over and be happy." I didn't have anything to say so I started walking away to go to the bathroom, and then I could hear H saying, "I guess I was just hoping to make things better for us.....but I know you hate me, and I still LY....I thought it could be a fresh start for us, and I do want to be together." I continued on my way and acted like I didn't hear that .....I don't know. They just feel like "words" to me.

H finished up with his work then was getting ready to leave to pick up MIL, S9, and S5 to go out for MIL's birthday dinner. H said, "I wanted to ask you if you wanted to come, but....I figured you didn't want to.....Do you?" I told H thank you but I'll pass. I just wasn't up for being around MIL and SIL.

H and the boys came back around 8:30pm. I had mentioned to H that there was a problem with the satellite service, so he checked it out and was on the phone with customer service for an hour trying to get it fixed; it finally did.

Then H said he was going to play cards. He said, "I'm just so uncomfortable at (mf)'s. I hate sleeping on the floor, and I can't sleep at night. Even worse, I can't get up in the morning. I don't want to because it's so depressing when I open my eyes and see that I'm not home.....I really feel like this is a big mistake, JV......Do you really think this is the right thing to do?"

I told H, "This isn't exactly easy on me either. I don't know if it's right, but we're going to find out, and I think we really do need the space from each other, H."

So H "sadly" got his keys, wallet, etc to get going and gave me another hug and kiss. H said that he was going to pick up the kids today to go swimming again, and after that, he was going to spend the rest of the day cleaning out the garage and getting the rest of his things out of his closet......(breathe in, breathe out, and repeat)......I can do this, and I will get through it.

Before he left, H pointed out to me that he changed the ringer on his cell phone for when I call him. H has numerous ringers and has a different one assigned to everyone who calls him so when it rings, he knows who's calling him. H used to have the "Super Mario Bros." song assigned to the house's number because the boys are HUGE Mario and Yoshi fans , but he said, "I changed it to "The Godfather" because that's the loudest ringer I have, and I don't want to miss a call from you....if you call me."

H also said something about there not being any food at (mf)'s place as he was walking to the car. I told him, "Well I guess you'd better go grocery shopping then." H was quiet for a sec then said, "Yeah...I guess I'd better."

Speaking of which, the fridge is pretty bare here, too ! When H gets here which should be soon, I'll see if he can stay with the kids so I can go buy some.

Thanks for listening, everyone.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."