Quote: I'm not willing to do this, and I wouldn't enjoy it that way. If a guy who's doing his part to be a good dad and a good husband and a great provider can't expect his wife to "enthusiastically respond to me," then what the hell is the point?
Choc, have you told her this? Have you told her how much you are hurting and that you feel like you are the only one putting any effort into the R? She may know this in the bottom of her heart, but needs you to call her on it. Why should she put in effort if she either feels you are comfortable enough with the status quo or if she feels like the gap between what is and what you want it too large (two different extremes here). You gotta talk with her, and I'm not talking about what did the kids do or not do today or what Aunt Matilda said. I'm talking about you baring your soul to her. It is very hard to do, but without doing that I don't think theres a snowball's chance in He!! that she's going to feel your pain enough to be motivated to do anything about it. No, I wasn't referring to the snowball talked about on the other thread the other day either ...if that were the case, then it would be stated something like not having a snowballs chance of happening...
Buck up and talk to her man, it is the only way you are going to get the ball rolling. Oh, and another hard thing to do: try to push that resentment and anger out of the way. Both of them get in the way of clear communication. Have you considered going to a WWME weekend? It really did do wonders for MrsGGB and me.
thanks, Lillie. Would it be helpful just for me to read it, or only if my wife reads it? Considering the title of my thread, I think I may have answered my own question...
Quote: MrsNOP, I guess my honest answer is that I'm not willing to do this, and I wouldn't enjoy it that way. If a guy who's doing his part to be a good dad and a good husband and a great provider can't expect his wife to "enthusiastically respond to me," then what the hell is the point?
I thought the point was to work toward getting something resembling a good marriage back.
NOP could and would have said everything you wrote above.
But that wasn't the whole story, was it?
It *was* the story to the best of his knowledge and understanding.
But it wasn't accurate.
As I pointed out, when we started this process he didn't get enthusiastic responses from me - begrudging, cold, and defensive would be better descriptors. If he had stopped right then because he wasn't getting an "enthusiastic response" then we would still be limping along, or divorced. And if he had chosen to get offended permanently to the occasional trip-ups and fallbacks that always, always occur - then the results would have been the same - ongoing damaged relationship or divorce.
You can sit in the corner holding on to your viewpoint, and your rights, and your entitlement and you may very well be justified in doing so.
But no amount of wanting to understand your wife's thought process is going to get anything moving. I reached a point where I didn't really have any thought process, all I had were reactions. If NOP did X, then my reaction was Y. I didn't even have to think about it anymore.
Even if you knew every thought your wife had, it still wouldn't change the fact that someone has to step forward and continue to step forward.
BTW, no judgement from me on being tired of working on things. I just don't think it's realistic to expect that your wife is going to respond in enthusiasm to much of anything when the distance is so far between you. Your relationship is disfunctional (as was mine). While you may be operating with normal responses in some areas, in others I would hazard a guess that you are disfunctional. Your wife is disfunctional as well. Somehow the disfunction has to be identified, discussed and then like any disability, rehab has to start, with all the grunts, sweat and tears that rehab entails.
I know you tried to get your wife to go to therapy with you and she refused because she didn't want anyone telling her she was crazy. I strongly suggest that you find a counselor, invite your wife and when she says "no" - then go yourself. She can then be concerned that you are telling someone else how crazy she is. That might be negative incentive, but it might be enough to get her off her butt and into counselling with you.
Someone needs to bump out of the relational rut the both of you are traveling.
You have written in the past that you had an aha! moment and realized that you were immature. I think that expecting (considering the damaged relationship you are in) that your wife would respond to your overtures with enthusiasm is also a sign of immaturity - the inability to actively work toward something without getting an immediate reward or positive feedback. Perhaps something to ponder.
Quote: Choc, have you told her this? Have you told her how much you are hurting and that you feel like you are the only one putting any effort into the R? She may know this in the bottom of her heart, but needs you to call her on it. Why should she put in effort if she either feels you are comfortable enough with the status quo or if she feels like the gap between what is and what you want it too large (two different extremes here). You gotta talk with her, and I'm not talking about what did the kids do or not do today or what Aunt Matilda said. I'm talking about you baring your soul to her. It is very hard to do, but without doing that I don't think theres a snowball's chance in He!! that she's going to feel your pain enough to be motivated to do anything about it. No, I wasn't referring to the snowball talked about on the other thread the other day either ...if that were the case, then it would be stated something like not having a snowballs chance of happening...
Yes, I have, but not lately. As I've posted previously, we used to have "The Talk" every six months or so, then maybe 1x/year, and then finally about four years ago, I had had it. I cried, bared my soul to her, prayed with her, basically just ripped my heart out and laid it on the table. I told her I could not -- WOULD not -- continue to live this way, and that rather than live in a platonic relationship every day, I was seriously considering moving out. She was remorseful, said she knew that she had been hurting me, but that she hadn't known what to do about it, and that when she gets "that way," her (admittedly illogical) reaction was to pull away even further. She apologized, made a real conscious effort to change, and for a blissful month to six weeks, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. And I don't just mean the sex, either, it was everything -- affectionate touches, kisses, sweet things she'd say to me, maybe making my favorite dinner.
She even promised me that "the old Mrs. Choclateeyes" was never coming back.
Two months later, it was back to the same ol' same ol', it has gotten worse since (we've ML 3x in the past four years), and I'm done reminding her of what I need.
Should I bring it up again? Most here would say "yes." Should I have IMMEDIATELY called her on her pullback four years ago? Even I would say "Yes!" But I didn't; I was hurt, and I was emotionally done.
We've been more like roommates and good friends ever since.
Choc, my man. You gotta keep her on track. She needs to be reminded of your pain. Remember, she is not the one feeling it, and it is too foreign to her to keep it in focus. It is very easy to fall back into old habits. If you are serious about fixing this, you need to bottle up the resentment and anger, throw that away. Belly up to the bar and expose yourself once again....and then keep exposing yourself. I'm finding that in order for the relationship to flower you need to keep yourself an open book and realize that neither of you can read the other's mind. She probably won't open up until she feels safe, which could be a quite a while off (MrsGGB still isn't opening up 7 months into our recovery), so don't expect mutual naked souls right away. I know it is painful to do, BTDT. The good news is the more you do it, the more comfortable it gets especially if she doesn't crucify you for your feelings. That is where WWME came in helpful...they stressed that we shouldn't judge the feelings, only try to feel what the other is feeling. I am still trying to get MrsGGB to open up, and that my friend makes full disclosure harder to do, but do it you must if you want it to work.
You have a choice, either set aside your hurt and step back into the game, or take the ball and go home a loser. The relationship isn't going to fix itself, and since you are the one who has recognized the problem, the onus falls on you to orchestrate the repair. Sorry, that is just the way it is. You only other options are to get out of the R altogether or to wallow in the mire like Cemar, biatching about it incessantly but never taking the steps to correct it. I know you don't want that. You can do it guy, I know you can. Even you said it worked once before and you had 6 weeks of died-and-gone-to-heaven bliss. My gosh, it worked once...do it again! There is no miracle sure, and remember, a Relationship needs continuous maintenance. This isn't a one shot deal. This is going to be true in this relationship as well as a future relationship should you decide you really want to throw it all away (the next time around won't be any easier without taking the same hard steps of opening yourself up completely). I don't mean to come down hard on you, I'm jsut trying to tell you that this is the way that it is.
Choc, If you are truly emotionally done, then why are you still there?
If it is for the kids' sakes, have you told your wife, "I am staying for the sake of the kids but once they are grown, I will likely leave, despite the fact that I love you very much." If not, why not? Don't you think she deserves to know what your plans are wrt her life?
Here's what I see from my vantage point:
You want to punish your wife.
I felt this way too; I'm sure all HD spouses feel this to some extent. I believe that you are holding on to the resentment started from the last pullback, and you are using this as your motivation to punish her (by withholding compliments and your desire and your sexuality) while simulataneously being the "good roommate" and all around good guy, so that she can't complain about it.
It is passively aggressive and is keeping you stuck. It almost seems as if you like this stagnation--cause you know it is punishing her--more than you fear the idea of tackling things once and for all. Like there are two scenarios and they both suck, but you will choose the one that punishes her because she caused it all to happen.
I'm not arguing that she caused the pullback, obviously she did, but I just think that you would be a happier man if you could have the type of life where no one is punishing and the "surface" marriage matches the internal one.
Quote: If it is for the kids' sakes, have you told your wife, "I am staying for the sake of the kids but once they are grown, I will likely leave, despite the fact that I love you very much." If not, why not? Don't you think she deserves to know what your plans are wrt her life?
I agree with this 100%, but maybe the reason you aren't telling her this or whatever else would be a true statement about your current position is because you are afraid if you said this then she would react by leaving you and you would lose your current relationship with your kids just for stating your mind. Is that the case? You might want to consider phrasing it in the manner that I did which was approximately "You know I have been unhappy with our sex life for years but I haven't taken a stand on the issue because I have made the kids a higher priority. Now that the kids are getting older, I need to look ahead and I know that I won't be happy with the status quo. I suppose I could have waited to address this issue until the kids actually move out, but that seems pretty cold to me. I love you and I would like try and work things out before it comes to that.". Of course even if you say something like this in as nice a manner as possible, I would recommend that you remove all objects that might be thrown and or broken from the room and think of the worst word your W might use to describe you and prepare to hear it.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I felt this way too; I'm sure all HD spouses feel this to some extent. I believe that you are holding on to the resentment started from the last pullback, and you are using this as your motivation to punish her (by withholding compliments and your desire and your sexuality) while simulataneously being the "good roommate" and all around good guy, so that she can't complain about it.
It is passively aggressive and is keeping you stuck. It almost seems as if you like this stagnation--cause you know it is punishing her--more than you fear the idea of tackling things once and for all. Like there are two scenarios and they both suck, but you will choose the one that punishes her because she caused it all to happen
Good god, Smartypot, you are one wise woman. I think you are exactly right.
So now what? I AM staying for the sake of the kids, and because it's comfortable, and because I also worry about what my W would do if we ever did divorce. I honestly worry about her sanity sometimes.
And what exactly do you mean by:
Quote: I just think that you would be a happier man if you could have the type of life where no one is punishing and the "surface" marriage matches the internal one.
Hey choc, I just meant that you two act like you love each other and are kind and friendly to each other, all the while hurting each other in the deepest possible way--by withholding intimacy and your "true" selves.
And that it would be nice if your "outer" marriage--the kind and friendly one--matched the "inner" marriage--the withholding, punishing one. In other words, it gets to be exhausting to uphold a sham of a marriage...all the pretending that the elephant aint in the room, etc. When that's gone and the outer matches the inner, it really is relaxing.
My marriage is certainly full of rocky moments but what you see is what you get. The exhaustion of avoiding the conflict is gone. And the conflicts are blips on the radar screen, they really are. I know they sound intense when I post them, but they are short lived and productive, every one of them.
I would encourage you to look deep within yourself and ask yourself if a man who punishes his wife is someone you want to be. Regardless of whether she deserves it or not..is it who YOU want to be?
Choc and Mrs Nop. Much of what you two are posting applies to my situation. Just wanted to let you know you have my empathy for your frustrations past and present as they apply to each of your situations.
Last friday and today I too had to almost rip my heart out and lay it on the line. It hurt BB both times. I did not want to do that but did not know how else to move foward. Maybe it did some good.
I don't want this post to be about me. Just letting you know the proccess is gut wrenching sometimes and encourage you to continue. Some of the hardest parts are bringing up difficult topics in what should be fair to both parties. I don't have that mastered.
Choc I am rooting for you to do the best you can. Mrs NOP wrote some good lines here.
...if that were the case, then it would be stated something like not having a snowballs chance of happening... 
