Quote: I tried to post in the thread “actions and words”, but somehow it wouldn’t let me.
Since I found some of you here, I’ll tell you here thank you for all of your words of real, struggling wisdom on the very day I needed to hear them.
I am in the midst of a spiral of separation (divorce?) pain, confusion, trying to understand. Stumbled (coincidence?) on DB book in a used book store, and had the weekend to devote to reading and thinking. A few weeks ago I thought I’d seen a link to this website when searching for practical legal info to help me figure out where I am since my H left. Didn’t pay much attention to it until today, and then started to search the boards.
Choc, I am in awe of what you are doing, and of your willingness to share in the “actions and words” thread. Though I am not your W, and my life and responses are very different, you are articulating so many things I think my H is feeling, and only rarely and ineffectively communicating. You’ve given me so much hope, and maybe I can give you some insight in return.
Nocoincidence, you posted the above on another thread, and I wanted to respond to you. I'd love to share some thoughts with you and with other LDW on my own thread, so that I may better understand my wife.
Choc, you knew the options were limited on the initial response, right?
In your other thread, you talked about how much it sucked to have to continually ask for something as simple as affection. So, you eventually stop asking.
NOP used to tell me how beautiful I was when I was either nekkid, or had been slopping about the house and/or yard on the weekends working. When I was decked out to the 9s, it never made it out his lips. Didn't make sense to me and there I would be all doodied up and he seemed to be oblivious to it. And if he couldn't tell me when I was all Cinderelled out, then he must not really mean it the other times or it served some purpose of his and had little to do with me. (I didn't say it was logical).
Once we began working toward connecting again, we discovered we both had infected, festering areas deep inside. This was one of mine. NOP now makes a conscious effort to compliment me on how I look. When he forgets, rather than sull up and shove some more pus into a wound, I laughingly tell him something along the lines of "Now's your chance to tell me how nice I look before I change clothes and put on the knock around the house outfit." So, he forgets sometimes, but he loves me and means well, so it's not something for me to get all hurt about anymore. KWIM? In the past, everytime the opportunity came and he didn't take it, I wouldn't say anything and the internal infection got worse. And the distance between us increased.
Part two of this point. I'm from the south and saying "yes, ma'am" to your elders is ingrained. My daughter, in her youth, decided that this was not something she cared to do in response to me. When confronted with her lack of proper response, she would say "I forgot". So, I would encourage her to remember the next time. Finally, one day I realized that this one had been going on unresolved for some time. The next time it came up and I got the "I forgot" I told her, "Okay, so say it now." Silence. She couldn't/wouldn't bring herself to do it. But, we both realized the truth, which was she didn't want to say it.
I had told both of these people what I wanted. One was willing but forgetful (and factor in broken relationship) and one was forgetful but not willing.
Which one fits your wife?
I know you don't want to put yourself out there anymore, but requesting a hug, or a compliment, a back-scratch and seeing what response you get will help move you forward. If you get a good hug or a lackluster one, then you can address it. Or when requesting a back-scratch, you get the evil eye of f*ck you, then you can address that.
A battle plan is needed. Silence has reigned so long in your relationship, that you don't know what's really there beneath the surface.
You described quite a bit of my H as well...at least when it comes to physical affection. It's not that he won't do it or doesn't want to do it.....it's more like he simply forgets to do it.....if I ask, he's more than happy to comply. To his credit though, he's doing much better about remembering
Like you though, it really helped me to deal with this when I realized it wasn't that he was refusing to give me affection...in many ways he was merely forgetting I needed it, due to the fact that his past experiences shunned affection.
I think when your relationship is fried and before you've made it to a better place, there is so much *discomfort* in the reconnecting. Especially physically for some folks.
I remember being uncomfortable with NOP giving me hugs. Part of it was because there was so many years of bad juju between us that wasn't being addressed. Some folks can obviously look past that to some extent, NOP and Choc, for instance. I was squirmy, giggly (giggling can be a result of nervous discomfort), stiff, etc. Which of course, telegraphed to him as Choc's wife does to him.
The weird thing about it was that I noticed when he wasn't doing it. When he had withdrawn from me. And I didn't like that either. If I tried to recreate what was going on inside, it was that I wanted things to be fixed, I didn't think they could ever be. I was twisted from years of resentment and bad memories/actions/events. But when NOP withdrew (and understandable so) I would get even more unhappy because it meant that the possibility of ever working this out became even lower.
I don't know how it can ever be resolved without pushing and arguing always with the goal of resolution, not just airing out ancient dirty laundry.
Once again....that's what we had experienced. In the past my H when we'd try to be intimate would do things like tickling me which just irritated the crap out of me...talk about a mood killer. I would tell him it irritated me, but he'd do it anyway.....it would remind me sooo much of a boy picking on a girl he liked but was too shy to tell her. In reality it was that nervous discomfort you're talking about....and I know that now.
He was so uncomfortable being with a woman who really wanted him that he didn't know how to act...it made him uncomfortable due to his past conditioning. To his credit once again though...he's working through that and doing much, much, MUCH better! It's a slow process...but he's learning to do the type of physical touch/affection that I need. On my side (since it's never a one-sided thing) I'm learning to give him the verbal affirmations he needs.....and the non-verbal affection (snuggling) he needs as well.
I've found now....we are at a much different place. No, we may not ML nearly as often as I'd really like but "WE" are in a healthier place in our M. We are ML more than we had in the past, not by leaps and bounds...but definitely more....and with time I am confident that will increase as well.
Choc, I went digging into the archives on that thread and found a couple of quotes from you.
"I tried four or five times to get her to pick a weekend to do this; and she shot me down every time. I finally gave up."
"I guess I do set myself up for this, by "inviting" her to things, and then gauging her reaction, noting that she's less than enthusiastic about it, and then just backing off and giving up altogether. But how could I even enjoy myself if I'm knowing that I had to DRAG her there??!"
" I told her it might be nice to get away for a weekend, just me and her, and I'm sure the girls could watch the boys and we could figure out all the arrangements. She gave me a very unenthusiastic "yeah, maybe... but that would be complicated" or some such. I said something like "With four kids and schedules and all, I'm sure it would be, but like anything else, if you want it to happen, we could make it happen." She said "let me think about it," and then never brought it up again."
Maybe I'm misreading here, but it appears that in these instances you made plans to do something nice together, but left it to her to make the necessary arrangements for the kids and the timing. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, at least when things are normal.)
But things aren't normal. You want her to meet you halfway, but obviously she isn't going to do that right now. You step out halfway by making arrangements for the game, then place the ball in her court and she just stands there and doesn't pick it up, you then wander off the court with another owwie in your heart.
It's not fair, I know. I think my question is whether or not you can make the effort to go beyond what is fair or equitable for a period of time? Also, you'll have to let go of your expectation for her to enthusiastically respond to you and whether you can enjoy it if you have to drag her there.
I refer back to NOP and I when we began having sex regularly. I certainly wasn't enthusiastic, and I know that NOP was not enjoying it.
I think you may have to acknowledge and accept that the path out of your problem will *have* to go through valleys of unenthusiasm and over hills of unenjoyment.
You *can't* go from what you have now, to happy, joyous encounters.
You can't.
And as long as you keep expecting or hoping or longing to do so, I think you'll be hard-pressed to have any progress. You may decide that it is no longer worth the effort. I can tell you that to go forward is going to be painful, unpleasant and you will have to expose your underbelly. That's pretty hard when you're already worn out.
I think trying to figure out the deep recesses of your wife's heart isn't possible right now, nor do I think it a fruitful pursuit.
Sometimes emotions promote behaviors and sometimes behaviors promote emotions.
Quote: I had told both of these people what I wanted. One was willing but forgetful (and factor in broken relationship) and one was forgetful but not willing.
Which one fits your wife?
If I had to pick one, I'd say that she is willing, but forgetful, but I don't think either fits in her case. I think she is more aware of it, overwhelmed by other things, and therefor unwilling to deal with ANY of it, whether she remembers it at the moment or not. I think her thought process is more "I have four kids, and this house to take care of, and I don't get much help, and I can only give so much," altho in a quiet moment, I think she knows there's more than a little BULLCHIT in that.
Your analogy is appropriate, because -- as you know -- there HAS been this "dance" going on with us, centered around her looks/sexiness/youthfulness, etc. She is vain -- perhaps even narcicisstic -- and constantly fishing for compliments.
I have always been VERY attracted to her (altho much less so anymore), and she's still strikingly beautiful and looks more 33 than her 44 years.
But yet I always compliment her, and she never compliments me, and I am resentful. So I have very intentionally cut WAY back on my compliments of her appearance.
Quote: Maybe I'm misreading here, but it appears that in these instances you made plans to do something nice together, but left it to her to make the necessary arrangements for the kids and the timing.
I'm usually the one who has to plan the "dates," and she does like for me to do that. And I would be perfectly willing to do that in the above "bigger deal" cases, but I guess what I was hoping for was SOME sort of enthusiasm on her part. I would be perfectly fine with a genuine "Oh my, that sounds WONDERFUL -- but what would we do with the kids???" at which point we could jointly figure out how to make it happen, or I'd probably be so excited that SHE was excited that I'd be happy to make all the logistics myself. But she never even seems EXCITED about these things -- just views them as hassles.
Quote: But things aren't normal. You want her to meet you halfway, but obviously she isn't going to do that right now. You step out halfway by making arrangements for the game, then place the ball in her court and she just stands there and doesn't pick it up, you then wander off the court with another owwie in your heart.
It's not fair, I know. I think my question is whether or not you can make the effort to go beyond what is fair or equitable for a period of time? Also, you'll have to let go of your expectation for her to enthusiastically respond to you and whether you can enjoy it if you have to drag her there.
MrsNOP, I guess my honest answer is that I'm not willing to do this, and I wouldn't enjoy it that way. If a guy who's doing his part to be a good dad and a good husband and a great provider can't expect his wife to "enthusiastically respond to me," then what the hell is the point?
I also think that my "period of time" is long over -- BT, DT. She has to show me something at this point. Just a "I am sad, we need to work on this" or a "I know we tried this before, but can we try again?" would go a long way to rekindle my desire to start the hard work that still lies between us and a healthy marital and sexual relationship.
Choc, I think you would find this new book I'm reading "Reclaiming Your Sexual Self" extremely helpful. The whole thing is pretty much written from the LDW's point of view, but it's very subtle and insightful. I have a thread below with some details.
