yes, dfb, I know you're right...I need to do what I do to make myself happier...and actually I am, I dont like being so heavy, I never was, was actually a really skinny kid! I have joined a fitness center, and go about 3x/week, although May was a wash-out because of being laid up for a while from surgery, and I had a tough time this winter with so much illness. I've thought of upping it to 5X week, or trying to anyway, but they tell me that may be too much. I used to walk a lot....am slowly getting back into it a bit....and yes, I plan to get a bike. that's what I should have bought yesterday, it would have been cheaper! so, it is for me, not just for H.
H has said that a major factor that drew him to ow was her childlike enthusiasim for stuff...claims the poor thing never had a vacation, etc., and that she'd just get SO EXCITED about things, and it made him feel good that he was doing something new for someone who never had it...?????....also her D, that she reminded him of our D when she was little, and he enjoyed reading her the same stories, etc.,..... Plus I suspect ow knows stuff about sex that frankly I don't. There, I said it. Guess I should have slept around more.
So, I don't know. I was reading "after the affair" by Janis Spring at lunch, and there was a point that kind of jumped out at me, which was that often what we dislike most about our partners, is something that was an issue or is still unresolved from an earlier time in our own lives. H's parents are REALLY into people being thin. I mean REALLY. His oldest sister is only a year younger than we are, and has had bulimia, untreated, for years. It is a mess... H has talked about how he was made fun of for being the "fat boy" when he was a kid, and how he worked and worked to reshape his body. hmmmmmmmmmm, now what was that attribute of mine he was complaining about?????
However in all honesty, I DO need to lose weight. I really still am heavy. just interesting to me, that seems to help explain why this could be such a huge issue with H, at least in part.
When I left yesterday, I just left. didnt leave a note of any kind, just left. went onto auto pilot, did what I had decided the week before I would do, just got in the car and left. I probably should have been considerate enough to leave a note.
Hope you're feeling better. Sorry to hear you've been ill.
Last night was really weird...talking continued, don't know if it's good or bad, I feel better at the time, like I gain some insight, but then I don't know. I mentioned ow following me at lunch to H, and then again the flood gates opened. Some of it's kinda scary, but I guess I certainly need to know it. She's every bit as bad and in fact much worse than I imagined. so: she followed me down the street when I left for lunch, I thought it had to be purposeful, as she was just coming out the door when I was leaving the parking lot, so she had to hurry and get in her vehicle and get behind me even though there wasnt a lot of traffic. I know it shouldnt bother me, but it irritated me, and my stomach was upset the rest of the day. When H got home, we were talking just about stuff. I dont know if I seemed clingy or what steered the talk that direction, but somehow I mentioned she did that.... and he said "I'd be careful, the bitch might just hit you from behind and push you out into traffic"...kinda got my attention.
I told him then about the parking next to me stuff that's been going on for what, a couple of months now, and that I cant help but see that as an aggessive move...he said it very well could be, that at christmas she had talked about putting a dildo on her dash board and parking next to me, because I had pitched a fit about their christmas trip and ruined her christmas, and she had been trying to get him to leave and he refused to do it at christmas.
OK, so, now does her parking next to me with the yellow teddy bear on her dash kinda ring a bell??????? I asked him again this morning if he thought it was deliberate, and he said it wouldnt surprise him, but she's also lazy and just doesnt like to walk. I asked him how dangerous he thinks she really is, and he said "not very, I think she's really afraid of you because I've told her you could kick her ass"...last night he did tell me I should watch my back.
This morning I got an email from him saying he hoped I didnt have any parking problems...and then another one saying he was glad I didnt. So he must have told her to knock it off.
But at christmas she still had her hooks in him deep. And later. He told me last night or this AM that it didnt really break down until around the first of May. which is about the time I told him "either or".
We were actually joking about her last night, and I felt better about the whole mess, but then today it's harder when I'm at work, although I havent seen her.
other parts of the conversation....she is still on corrective action here at work; her supervisor and all the business office and coworkers hate her because she is so rude and hateful. She is jealous of H walking with a female coworker who works in the out-of-town office. Maybe I should be, but really am not. Her supervisor, h believes, is looking for anyway to get rid of her. ow emails him constantly about clients/med log stuff, saying "we have to work together on this"...he said (I hope I can believe him) he doesnt respond to most of them, and the ones he does he cc's to her supervisor....and she commented to him that now her supervisor is getting a copy of everything.
H said he doesnt see her anymore at work for the most part since he told her he didnt want to see her face, that she used to strut and parade in the hall outside his office door. he said he looks at her with such disgust when he can't avoid seeing her that other people have noticed, the walking co-worker said "wow, you must not like her" and he replied "that's about it" loud enough for her to hear.
now about ow: incredible. What the hell is he doing with someone like that? I will make certain S has NO contact with her no matter what happens.
OK, lets see, where to start...in college, she had a guy hold a gun to her head he was so angry with her; lived with a guy during the week, and then on the weekends saw the guy she married; lived with 2 drug dealers; ummm, lets see, got involved with a recovered alcoholic and he went back to drinking again; I'm not sure if it's the same person or not, but she was involved with the director of some type of psychiatric/drug abuse facility the state she came from, he went to alcohol treatment himself, came back, purged the place, and she got fired. Another place she worked in in that state, she evidently turned in for medicare fraud and got the whole place shut down (which may not be bad in itself) ok, now here it really gets good.....evidently she started turning in complaints of fraud to medicare here, enough to trigger an audit/investigation, which turned up nothing....so then she got into the computer program used for billing/etc., and was copying and downloading files to send to them to try to provide more information. She couldnt get whatever it was, but when she tried to do it once, her computer disk had been disabled and said "you cannot access this drive (something like that) without your supervisors authorization".... H said last night he can't imagine that she won't be moving on, she has never stayed anywhere very long...and he believes they are looking for every excuse to fire her butt still.
last night, we had sex, and he had no trouble...and in fact seemed to enjoy himself. go figure that one.
This morning I was thinking still about her damn parking place habits, and said something about it again...he got kind of impatient, which I can understand, said it didnt help him to talk about it every morning, that what he is working toward is apathy..."after all, that's the opposite of love". I told him "that works for me" and let it drop and walked off.
I did say something in an email today about wanting things to be "good" with us....his response was "please stop worrying so much, we'll get there"....
Oh, yeah, he even said I should give her cold dirty looks like she give other people, or put a card on her car the next time she parks next to me that says "the best woman did win, bitch!" (said the last word with emphasis); or ...and I loved this one: I should put a Dildo on my dash board, along with a card saying "Hey D, this one's for you!" in big letters, and then park next to her. What a crowd that would draw...I had to laugh. Suggested I should provoke her into taking a swing at me, then "blacken both her eyes and put her teeth down her throat" I have to admit I've considered the 1st swing thing, because that would get her out of here.
This morning he said he thought the best thing to do now was to just let everything quiet down, that any "poking" will make things worse/more trouble.
h commented that "I just want to forget and move on"....
Please reread the last line of your post. He wants to forget and move on. Ok, time for you to do the same. Most of your post was about her. It might make you feel better to list all the crazy things about her, but it doesn't matter. And please don't lower yourself to dirty looks and dildos in your car--you don't really want to be her do you?
And try not to ask for reassurance ("wanting things to be good"). That kind of statement puts him on the spot to reassure you. My H hated having to reassure me all the time. He wanted me to be confident enough to not need reassurance all the time--and I didn't get any information about OW or any "don't worries".
No more bringing her up, ok? He wants to move on--let him. And move on with him. Don't keep pulling him back into the past. If you should feel threatened by her, then by all means call 911.
Now it is time for the two of you. Work on feeling good about yourself. Keep appreciating him and respecting him. Keep smiling at him.
You're getting really good at this Deb. Keep it up!
Hi Mollie, of course you're absolutely right, I don't want to stoop to her level, but it's still mind boggling to understand the depths (heights?) of her weirdness.
H said yesterday am he just wants to forget and move on, but in truth he is not ready to, he is very much stuck in a "processing mode"...and it's proving to be really tough for me to handle.
And the "fear factor" is still so huge for me...no matter how hard I try I can't seem to get past the terror that they will get back together...simply because that is exactly what has happened in the past. Not a word was ever spoken about it, but I KNEW when they did, and I was exactly right.
we had another long talk last night--at H's initiation--and every thing I think that I still suspected but didnt know for sure was confirmed...they were back together about 2 weeks before we took our fall vacation last year; the times when I know I would see I was agonizing on this board about it, they were back together.
You may not have been reading my stupid, lurid soap opera "back when", but a one point I was absolutely "nutsed" out because I "felt" that H was lying about going to professional workshops and having "out of town" day trysts with her....well, last night, he confirmed it, I was right...I knew exactly when, etc., where...those days I was agonizing about it but keeping the home fires burning, that is exactly what was going on.
HOW do/will I ever get past this????????? I really don't know. It's proving to be harder than I ever dreamed possible. Hard enough to make me still sometimes feel like throwing in the towel.
I really do need help processing my feelings of betrayal, I guess. and fear of going through it all again. I think as it says in DR, that this has all been pushed down so far for so long, and now it is practically erupting. h's emotional stuff adds to MY pressure. but I don't want to shut him off...we need to be able to process this together to start to rebuild.
and the really scary part: I don't think I have a clue how to start the rebuilding process. I want joy and passion and admiration in our M....it's always been kind of a "quiet simmer" kind of R, and I have no clue how to get from here to there. I think that is also what H wants in the end, after all the "grief"...I'm convinced that's part of what led to the A....
I could really use some thoughts on how to get "there", or a least how to start the journey...
Guess I'll update: Last night was tough. H got home from work about 8:15, his 12 hour day here in this office. I decided to do things a little differently, and instead of landing on him with hugs, I stood quietly out of his way, against the kitchen counter, and just watched. He blew in the door and buzzed around the kitchen as he always does, setting up coffee maker, getting ice and water, chatting and jabbering, etc.. then he stopped all at once, looked at me, and said "what??" I said "it's just nice to have you home"....and this funny cautious look crossed his face, and he said "well, I had a big fight with you-know-who today"....I asked who, because I was pretty sure...but wanted to clarify! hmmm, yep, it was ow.
Seems they had a running email battle. evidently it started when she emailed him that she saw treadmills and belts at walmart...(his is messed up right now)...he said he guessed he should have let it go, but he emailed her back to stop sending him personal emails, he didnt want to hear from her...evidently she then emailed him to stop sending them to her, and it was off. Evidently at some point h emailed her that he hated her, and was trying to work towards ambivalence, that he is not her friend and is not going to be her friend and that she is to leave him alone. Evidently he at some point threatened to contact her xh about the way she is neglecting her D...what a mess.
then came a 2 hour discussion, H even skipped his walk to talk...this was his initiation, he needed to talk, so I pretty much just listened. H talked about her borderline personality disorder, her jealousy, how she baits people and pulls them in and then beats up on them emotionally (a trait of that disorder)...and how stupid he was to get sucked in like that. How she required him to sit at the phone over his lunch hour at out of town office so she could call him, and then sometimes wouldnt call....how she forbade him to go walking with coworkers, etc., amazing. it would never occur to me to make such demands, and this endears her to him????
I heard then about how she had asked him what I have that she doesnt and he had told her I treated him with respect.
then it got hard for me to hear, because he flipped to the "how great it was" side, that they had had such great fun together, the kind we have never had, and he didnt know if we could...I got upset at that, told him that I have begged and pleaded for us to go do stuff, and in fact my resentment at his refusal is one of the things that caused us to drift apart in the first place. H said everything is so complicated with me, unspontaneous...I told him I didnt feel that was accurate, "lets go"...now was the time....that I could be happy and joyful also, but that I had never had the advantage of being able to just "dump" my kids to do it.....this is kind of weird, because what I see here is he is arguing both sides of the coin...her scatterbrained disorganization both drives him nuts and attracts him. My calm(er?) methodical, "reliable" approach soothes and yet bores him. WTF????? and what do I do???? Unfortunately at that point, I shed a few tears, the running down the cheek kind, not the wailing and teeth-gnashing kind--and h got irritated. said again that my weight was a problem....then asked if I had ever considered that he is just not ready to do those things/go those places yet??? to which I told him I had considered that, but i dont' think that's the whole story since it predates the A...
Both of us had a restless night, I don't think H slept at all....that is 3 nights in a row for him, which concerns me.
This morning, I woke up kind of weepy, which irritated H. I just stayed away from him. then he said it is very hard for him because he needs support and to work this stuff out for himself, "can't you give me 5 or 10 weeks"...I told him of course I can...H said again he is "just not ready yet" to do stuff/go places??? but that "we will get there"...later I said that I want to bring him fun and excitement...he said "you bring me contentment. I guess I don't tell you that enough and obviously need to do it more"...I told him contentment was good, but that I want to bring and get the "joy" part too, that it's an all/all situation...he smiled and said "we'll get there"... before he left for work, he said "you can stop stressing".....
I had an email from him about 9 this am, very short, just saying the secretary is gone and he's busy trying to keep up, and also saying "thank you for your patience and support. we shall make it".
Several times last night and again this morning he talked about how he hates being in this office, because he tries so hard to avoid running into her, and it is hard, and upsetting when he can't avoid her.
It did occur to me that it's a positive that without my asking him told me about the "unavoidable contact" (email fight) ala "not just friends" recommendations.
Gosh Deb- I've been thinking about you and wanting to post but I just have a few minutes.
I just read about a couple overcoming an A in my Ladies Home Journal (Can this marriage be saved article). Their counselor recommended that they set aside 20 minutes a day for the W to cry and carry on about her H's A. He was to listen and hug and support her during that time. But once the 20 minutes were up, that was it on that topic.
Although I think it is good that your H is sharing, I think he is being unfair with how much he is unloading about OW on you. And as much fun as it can be hearing bad stuff about her, I don't think it is helping you, him or the two of you. What if you tried the 20 minute thing and told him that you think he needs more help than you can give him? Counselor, clergy, good guy friend as an alternative?
I would also set a boundary regarding H's reference to your weight. If you feel that you need to work on it and are actively trying then that should be off limits unless he wants to help and be supportive.
Regarding the sex performance- I looked up "delayed ejaculation" on WebMD because my H tends to take longer since the A. And outside of abnormal health conditions, a affair is definitely a contributor. The article also said that few men can take care of solving that one without counseling. Quite honestly, they should be happy that we are willing to have sex with them so soon after all this crap! We should be the ones having issues.
Anyway, not to be blunt, I just wanted to get you something today!
A couple of things: remember, you are the safe place, you want to be the happy, cheerful person he comes home to. Act as if! Cry when he isn't around. When he is telling you how much fun they had together and doesn't know if you two can do that, don't defend yourself, validate! This is the perfect opportunity to be on his side. You may not agree with him but this is how he thinks right now so go with it. Just nod your head if you have to. Eventually his thinking will change but not as long as you are telling him you don't agree or that he is wrong, because he will be the defensive one and continue trying to make a point. You can't be against him right now.
You need a counselor to talk this through with, Deb. It is too much to do on your own and he can't be the therapist.
Where is your GAL? What are you doing for you? What fun things did you two do when you were happy together that you don't do now. Don't use the kids as an excuse to not get out and do something. You must have time with your H without kids. There are babysitters out there. Grandparents? What are your goals? What can you do to reach the goals. Get your DR book out and keep reading. Get the tapes/CDs. Keep all the DB info fresh in your mind. Keep reminding yourself. Do fun stuff without him. If you are having a good time, chances are he will want to join you.
He's telling you over and over you don't have to worry, so please work on that. I know it is hard. I still do it too, but I find other outlets for my anxiety rather than try to get him to reassure me. You are going to make the work, Deb!
WN & Mollie, I have to run to a meeting, I havent gotten to read your posts yet, but thanks so much, I will this afternoon as soon as I get back. I wanted to post this. I just got this emails from H: "Thanks for the e-mail. I understand more than you know. I am not pessimistic about our future, please just give it some time as it is not going to go from one extreme to another overnight, nor do I expect that it should. I saw the snot in the hall as I was leaving and I think she looks pretty blown away. She has bigger bags under her eyes than I do. I think the e-mail where I flat out told her I hated her and to leave me the F alone shattered her plan of playing games and hanging around and working on getting back together later. I don't think she expected I would get so mean or say such things, now she knows so I don't think the parking problems will persist or I'll ever hear from her again with anything except business!"
this is what i have been suggesting/asking him to do for a year...of course part of my suggestion was that he cc it to me.....but I have to take some heart in the fact that slowly, slowly, torturously slowly, H seems to be doing the things that I told him long long ago I would need for him to do for us to start "rebuilding".
At noon I got this email from H... "I’m glad you love me and I’m glad we are talking about such things now, we never talked about our feelings before, and so we are already doing some things differently. I am so glad that you are a steady person, not emotionally all over the place and that you are rational, I just don’t deal with irrational bull headedness well at all. I figure we learned a lot in the past 2 years both of us that can make the next 20 plus great ones. So relax and enjoy!"
I find this encouraging. Slowly I am beginning to let myself believe that he is renewing his commitment to our M...soon we can move forward. WN, I know you're right about setting boundaries in the discussions. I don't think "fun" is exactly the right term to describe how it feels to hear about the A, or even ow's faults, but it is helpful from the standpoint of learning about needs, contributing factors, etc., just tough to hear. Frankly, it is new behavior that h and I are just learning to share and talk about this stuff with each other, so that makes it even tougher.
the weight is hard for me. I hate it myself. at first I lost easily, but I think maybe I lost too much too quickly, and now i'm really stuck. I'm working out regularly, losing inches, but the weight is still there, and I'm still "flabby". ick. but you're right about drawing the line. I have to say h usually is supportive, encouraging me to keep going with working out and that "it will come"...it's when things get emotional that it "slips"...
Mollie, I know kids are no excuse for not doing stuff, that we NEED to do things together (actually only S12 is home now) but I can't get H to leave the place other than for vacation. honestly, this was going on for years before the A...he literally became a hermit. I chalked it up to depression, and tried to live with it, but it is like pulling hens teeth to get him to do anything. Even taking walks together every now and then is a babystep in my eyes. Him even mentioning the possibility of doing things is a babystep, even when he says he isnt ready to yet. I view the fact that he's CONSIDERING it as a baby step.
I'm still working on GAL...working out, shopping(unfortunately) redecorating, planning to get a bike still...maybe trying some weight watchers meetings (for me!)looking for new hairstyles...time for a change there...
ohhhh, something I was going to post and forgot, but I think it's important. last night H mentioned that it took him about a year from the start of the a (the start of the P part of it anyway, I sure the e part started 6 -7 months earlier) to begin to see ow's "true colors" enough to even begin to think "maybe I better take a look at this"...it was about this same time that he BEGAN to see my changes as genuine and lasting..."for real" is how he put it. so it took probably 8 months of me dbing my butt off for him to even consider re-thinking things. and this was all "under the table", he sure never said he was re-evaluating, although his confusion was evident in many ways. When it talks about it taking patience and a long time in DR, it's not an understatement!
I have to mention something I find interesting. As I was leaving for my meeting, I drove by ow's vehicle. she is parked about as far away from me as she can get. Remember the yellow teddy bear that appeared on her dash around valentines day and got on my last good nerve when she began parking next to me????? gone. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
