All I can say to that is WOW! Good job this weekend. Apparently you are doing quite a few things right. So make sure you take the advice you gave me and be patient even though things are progressing nicely for you.
What do you do in response to the "accidental" touching/hand holding whatever? Or too flirting? Just curious...plus I'd like to take a few notes.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Yes, the key is to remain without any expectations while still encouraging W to move into a comfort zone with me. It has taken almost two years for the touching thing to become possible. I am trying to be nonchalant and natural about it so that in time it will become something that is not an issue anymore and maybe things will go up to the next level. I have realized that Deida's thinking, which is to remain present in the moment and to enjoy it for what it is and not to worry about the past or the future is that best (only) way to stay sane in this business of DBing. Of course, I have slipped up many many times in the past and will probably do so on occasion in the future but I am doing my best to maintain constant PMA and awareness and accept things the way they are, even enjoy it. Well, let us see where my experiment of using PMA as a weapon leads.....You will be informed in due course.....
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Additional clarification. In my experience eah time I make a change it seems to take me MONTHS, not days or weeks to get up to the next level. My time-line has been:
Year 1 July '03-'04) - W was extremely angry. Did not want to do anything with me at all. I was a mess. No clue about DBing.
Year 2 -
July to October - gradual calming down of W. Anger seemed to be going away.
October to December- W reconnecting in several ways leading up to Xmas. Talking more to me about day-to-day stuff. Bought me Xmas gifts.
January - I initiated R talk. W admits she has issues of her own. This is nobody's fault.
February-May. Things are getting better. Almost no anger in W. I have been DBing. No touching yet but lots of time together.
End of May '05 - R talk. W says she does not know how to come back into the M and says she will file for D. I say, dont want this, but if that is what makes you happy then I cant stop you.
Since then- lots of physical"accidental contact" on the part of W, flirting type moves, invite to go to art fair, asked me if I wanted to go out for unscheduled dinner. She is much more upbeat. I have not received D papers yet and W seems more relaxed around me. I am keeping PMA up and being real cheerful around her. I am also doing my best to GAL and not pursuing at all. So I will have to wait a few months to see how this new phase plays out.
I am NEVER initiating an R talk again.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
That is a very long process. I can't believe you have been separated several years without being D. I think that says at least something about where your W was at.
My whole situation is like yours but at light speed in comparison. My W's anger lasted a couple weeks. She moved out after one month, said she wanted to come back after 2 weeks, took it back, and divorced me in 5 short months from bomb. Yours is like molasses in comparison, but you are doing well with keeping your focus and being patient.
My current concern is that things seem like they are going better for you after she indicated she'd like to get a D. That's like mine. Reaching the decision to D seems almost like a trigger....like it's okay after that point to be your friend. If you know my situation, I always felt like I was making headway only to be informed of a new step on the stairway to D. So I guess I worry for you that this progress may be a step toward D, but a step towards an improved R as well. My R feels more meaningful than it has in several years...like we are better friends now than we maybe ever were. But it took a divorce to get that way. I didn't know how to keep the good R going while avoiding the D. I hope you find the way.
As your R improves I recommend you are careful about how much you let on that you are holding out hope. It sounds like you've already been reminded that having a R talk is not conducive to successful DBing.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Regarding your comments I see many similarities except the time scales are different:
"My whole situation is like yours but at light speed in comparison. My W's anger lasted a couple weeks. She moved out after one month, said she wanted to come back after 2 weeks, took it back, and divorced me in 5 short months from bomb." - This is true. But in my case things were complicated by the fact that my W's slide toward the separation and all that began while she was home on maternity leave with our D. The bomb was dropped on me just before our D turned 1. Caring for an infant while all this crap was going down was difficult for both me and her.
"My current concern is that things seem like they are going better for you after she indicated she'd like to get a D." - Oh, yeah, I dont get it. Just dont get it. What the heck is she thinking? I mean, she is in such a good mood. She acts like she is much lighter in mood now!! But, my response to her declaration to seek D must have surprised her as well. I am usually an intense person but I am being breezy as well. And I am not even pretending. At this point I just dont have any desire to fight it. Not because I dont love my W or anything but because I know that the more I fight it the worse it will get.
"If you know my situation, I always felt like I was making headway only to be informed of a new step on the stairway to D." - believe me, this is exactly my situation except in slow motion. Every time I felt there was hope, I applied pressure, not explicit even, just the hint of pressure and my W took a step toward D. I am now not only not applying pressure I am going to move in the opposite direction. So far my W seems to be pursuing me when I do that.
"So I guess I worry for you that this progress may be a step toward D, but a step towards an improved R as well." -I hope so. In some ways I think my W has had performance anxiety so far. She herself said so when she declared intention to D couple weeks back. She said she tries so hard to convince herself to come back to the M but she cannot do it. Perhaps her thought process has been "I really need to get back to the M" and then she argues against herself and cant make up her mind. Maybe now she has decided to go forward with the D the little voice inside her is fighting that impulse. I don't know. I am trying to stay out of her internal soap opera.
"I didn't know how to keep the good R going while avoiding the D". -hence the title of my thread. If I continue to stay put and be happy or even edge away from her ever so slowly while leaving the door open maybe I can entice her back into the cave. Anyway, you have a ringside ticket to witness this procedure.
"As your R improves I recommend you are careful about how much you let on that you are holding out hope" - Oh, yeah? Look who's talking, you indefatigable pursuer, you.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Quote: Look who's talking, you indefatigable pursuer, you.
Who's more qualified to speak from experience about getting impatient and pursuing?
That's part of my plan...be indefatigable. Despite six million setbacks I'll continue to get up and dust myself off, be friendly, supportive, and loving, then blow it by getting impatient. But my persistence will eventually win out. Or then again I could try your way....
Quote: If I continue to stay put and be happy or even edge away from her ever so slowly while leaving the door open maybe I can entice her back into the cave.
I like the sound of that.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Just wanted to note that I just wanted to note that I learned quite a bit from your last several posts. Thanks for taking the time to describe your changes, especially regarding the Deida readings and masculinity. Your W seems to be noticing.
There has been a lull in the activity after the weekend (the calm before the storm?). Anyway, havent seen much of W in the past couple of days. Her behavior has not changed over the past couple of days. She is being nice to me and there is still an increase/status-quo on the physical comfort deal.
I am making steady progress on asserting independence. And continuing with zero pressure. I dont know, I feel like this week will be a critical one as far as the D filing goes. We will see how our experiment of using PMA as a weapon against D goes.
I would like to broadcast an email exchange today between my W and I and would like to get any input from your perspicacious DBers on what you think she is saying here:
MY MESSAGE TO W: ----------------------------------------------------------- Hey:
I tried calling you this afternoon but could not get hold of you. Just wanted to let you know I went today during lunchtime and replaced my cell phone. I did not realize until I was about to sign the acceptance contract that we were on a family share plan. Anyway, I just left it as it was. I did not know what to do with it. Let me know if you suffer any monetary encumbrances due to this and I will reimburse you for the same. Thanks,
UD ------------------------------------------------------- HER REPLY: ------------------------------------------------------- Gosh, in this e-mail you sound like the lawyer -- I wish you wouldn't be so formal with me about this stuff.
I'm not sure what to do about the phone. I actually went today to trade mine but I couldn't do it because I was on your account and I need your signature. I don't really care about what plan I'm on, but I don't want you to have to pay my bill each month. It is currently around $200 per month for both of us, and that is too much, so I think we need to see whether we can get a different (less expensive) plan, and I'd like for us to be billed separately. You have been paying some expensive bills of mine each month, like the cell phone and my student loans, and I think it is only fair that I take some of that off of you.
Anyway, I have a form you can fill out to transfer my account, or we can go to the Verizon place together and take care of it sometime. But whatever we do, it should be soon because my cell phone is toast.
See you later. ----------------------------------------------------------
I dont know, I have analyzed this to death (yeah, right, I am detached from the situation) already. But would like to get any take from anybody who would want to waste their time on it.
BTW, a friend of mine who is not on the bb but went through a divorce+reconciliation scenario sent this to me:
----------------------------------------------------------- I am currently reading a book 'The earth of mankind' by an Indonesian author Pramoedya Ananta Toer. Here is a paragraph I came across that made me think of us.
"What I was feeling then, such very depressed feelings, my ancestors called nelangsa- feeling completely alone, still living among one's fellows but no longer the same; the heat of the sun is borne by all, but the heat of one's heart if borne alone. The only way to obtain relief was communion with the hearts of those of a similar fate, similar values, similar ties, with the same burden. I felt as if all things joyous had been eliminated from my heart." ---------------------------------------------------------- Now, clearly the author is not familiar with DBing or with maintaining a PMA (him not having access to Gabriel's posts and all) . But I thought this is where many of us find ourselves sometimes?
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
I agree with your wife. Your note sounded like a lawyer. Too stuffy. Especially that last sentence.
Is that word for word? Your wife sounds sweet. No hint of animosity towards you. I do feel she is feeling guilty that you are still taking care of some of her financial responsibilities considering she is still pursuing divorce. She probably also wants a little more financial independence. I can't believe you are paying her student loans and the cell phone? One thing that came to mind for me because I had the same experience....is she worried that you could look closely at the bill and see who she's calling?
Anyway, my take...and I'm sorry...is that this stuff is just preparation for being completely on her own. It's probably best to write back that she is right and until they get sent to her address that you'll forward stuff like her student loans and other such bills that are solely her responsibility. Be nice about it (and leave out stuffy words like encumbrances).
Wes
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Agree with you on several counts (my wife is sweet, yes and there is not much animosity, no, but damn, she still doesnt want an R). Thanks for the kick in the pants. My language tends to be "encumbered" when I am feeling awkward about things. I guess I should go light. I actually replied to her email and I was light. So, anyway, you are right, I should lighten up. And, yes, I should let he break all strings and let her go. No pressure....No pressure....
Thanks for your input, Wes.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
. But I thought this is where many of us find ourselves sometimes?