That's what I'm talking about JV! Go do something for yourself. I've got nothing going on tonight, so my Friday night will be spent at the gym. Exciting, NO. Glamorous, NO. Would I rather be at dinner chatting with a beautiful woman? What do you think? OF COURSE! But that ain't happening tonight, or unfortunately tomorrow night, ok that's depressing...anyway, take charge JV, you sure can do it.
Please have a nice holiday weekend and try to spend less time thinking about your H, cards, money, etc.
As a matter of fact, I dare you to not post here for 48 hours, not until Sunday night or even Monday morning. We'll all miss you but we'll understand.
H wanted me to make arrangements for a sitter last night -- I did just that.
He said whatever he was going to do last night, it would involve me. I was hoping for that, but not expecting it either. Or maybe I was.
Well, just before H got home, I told myself, "This is it. H said he wants to do something with me, and I've told him ok but no poker. If he can't agree to do something that I would like to do just for this one night, I'm not putting up with him anymore. I love him, but I've had it."
So H walked in the door and begins to break down. He was at (mf)'s house talking about what's going on here and how he feels. Another one of our mutual friends (I'll call him CY) was over there as well. H said CY knows the sitch but hadn't said anything to H until now. CY told H not to take it the wrong way but this is how he saw it:
CY told H he is not a man. CY said, "If you're only with her because it's convenient or whatever, because you're afraid to be alone, because you're not sure if you love JV anymore, or because you don't want to disrupt your kids' lives, or because it's a money thing for you, then H, you're not a man. You're a f***ing p***y. You owe her the chance to be happy. You can't keep her to yourself because you're a selfish a**hole. Because you're to afraid to be alone. How do you think JV feels? What do you think all this s**t is doing to her? Did you ever think about her for a minute? I could name 20 guys right now that we all now who would LOVE to be with JV just for the type of person she is. She deserves to be happy, and if you can't be man enough to do what you CAN and SHOULD for her, then you owe it to JV to let her go. You owe it to yourself, too."
H said (mf) told him to just take a break from thinking about everything, and CY said, "It's been what? A couple years now you said? That's too f***ing long. You need to be a man, H. Take it any way you want to, but JV deserves more. She deserves happiness, and if you can't give her that, then let her go."
H said he's been told this before but never in the way that CY told him. He said, "When he mentioned being afraid to be alone, he was right. I am afraid to be alone. I don't want to be alone. Who do I have to go to?.....When CY talked about not knowing if I loved you or not, that was wrong. This has nothing to do with love because I know that I DO love you. JV, you know me and understand me better than anyone else. How could I ever find someone like you again?"
I was trying to keep myself composed. I felt like H was telling me that he hasn't left because he doesn't have anyone to go to -- he's afraid of being alone. I guess if OW hadn't told H to eat s**t, OW might still have been in the picture, and H would have left because he would've had OW to go to.
It also felt like he was telling me that he wants me but not me. Does that make any sense? H wants my qualities but in another form (???).
H also said that CY made him realize just how selfish he really is, and we talked more about how H is still on the fence then he asked me how I felt. I told H that I've been feeling like I've been on the fence for awhile, too. I don't think I was there 3 or 4 months ago, but I am now. I told him I love him and I'd like for the R to work, but it will take a lot more time. Then I told him that I'm also getting tired of being last on his list. I feel like I've been at the bottom for way too long. I even told H that I'm beginning to feel like my feelings for him are shutting down. H said he was sorry.
He sat next to me, put his head on my shoulder, and held my hand.
After a moment, H said, "Well, I'm doing one of two things tonight. I'm either going to play at the (card room) or I'm going back over to (mf)'s to drink. What are you going to do?" I told H, "Well....I don't know." H said why didn't I go with him, and I told him, "I told you earlier that I wasn't up for playing poker, and I really don't feel like drinking." H said alright then went to take a shower.
I couldn't stop thinking about how H told me for the past 2 days that he wanted to do something with me, but why did it have to be poker and/or drinking? Why can't we do something I want for once?
When he got out of the shower, H asked me if I changed my mind. I said, "How about we do something else for tonight? Like go to the city and just hang out. Or we could go out for dinner and a movie. Or we could even just go to the beach and kick back." H looked away and it seemed as if he was biting his tongue. He got dressed, put on his shoes, then came up to me and said, "I'm going over to (mf)'s to have some drinks. You can call me and come over if you change your mind." He gave me a kiss goodbye then left.
I felt like I clearly gave H the opportunity to do something with me. I gave him numerous suggestions of things we could do together. I even suggested going bowling or to a pool hall......But he chose to go do something he knew I wasn't up for. I told him I wasn't.
H chose alcohol and poker over me. I know that I have no control over him, but the choice he made put me over the edge.
I called him about 45 minutes later and told him not to come home. I told him I didn't want him coming back last night because I was probably going to end up fighting with him. H said, "Well, I did invite you to come with me." What a selfish a**hole! HE JUST DOES NOT GET IT.
I again told H not to come home because I didn't want to be near him. H said, "Ok, well, I'll just move my s**t out in the morning then. How about that?" BTW, I could tell he had already had a few drinks.
I told H, "Fine. You do that......I gave you the chance to do something that would make me happy tonight, but you chose to do otherwise. You chose to go drink and play cards over me, H. You really are selfish."
Then he started acting cocky and said, "You don't mean it. You don't want me to leave. You're just mad right now. I'll come home in 5 minutes and we'll go do something."
I told H, "No! It's too late. You left already....you left a long time ago, H. I'm tired of being treated this way. I don't want to do this anymore." H said, "Ok, I'll be there in 5 minutes."
He wasn't taking me seriously at all!!! I started getting loud with him and told him DO NOT COME BACK HERE TONIGHT! I DO NOT WANT TO SEE YOU! GOODBYE! He said goodbye and I hung up.
I didn't have anywhere to go so I just went for a drive. I got home a couple of hours later and there was a message from H on the machine that said, "Hello? JV, pick up.....Well, this is the last time I'm going to ask. Do you want me to come home right now?.....Ok.....Bye then."
(SIGH).......I have yet to cry.
I just don't know what to do anymore. I'm tired of acting as if this will get better. I'm tired of being his last priority. Correction -- his last responsibility. I'm tired of being left behind. I'm tired of his selfishness. I'm tired of being the one who has to change this around. I'm tired of feeling lonely even when he's here. I'm tired of his cockiness. I'm tired of being dumped on. I'm tired of hurting.
I'm tired -- just plain tired.
I have to go get the baby now. H still hasn't come to get his things. No doubt he has a hangover and probably isn't even up yet.
I'm sorry, but thank you for listening.
JV
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
My heart goes out to you, JV... I am so sorry to hear that you and your H did not spend the time together last night that you had hoped for... Do you ever journal? The reason I ask is that I have found journaling to be very helpful for me during this difficult time... IMHO, it may be a good idea for you to do so for yourself. If it does interest you, try writing out the following questions in your journal, if not simply answering them in your head or out loud may be useful as well... 1). Did you love your H when you first got married? 2). Why did you get married? 3). Do you love him now? 4). Why are you still married? 5). How do you and your H get along? 6). What do you have in common? 7). What do you like most about him? 8). What do you like least about him? 9). How does he treat you? 10). How would you like to be treated? 11). How do you treat him? 12). When were the two of you the happiest in your relationship and why? 13). Are you happy in your relationship now? 14). What would you like to change/improve in your relationship? 15). Do you think this change is possible? Why? 16). What have you done personally to try to make your relationship better? 17). What are your greatest fears about staying married? 18). What are your greatest fears about seperating/divorcing? 19). Do you have any children? Do they play a role in your choice? 20). Overall, what does your gut/intuition tell you to do about your marriage?
By the way, I wrote down each and every question here in my personal journal. Some of the questions were hard for me to answer, but I found that many of my answers were not what I expected them to be.
Here are some more questions for you to think about... 1). How do you feel about your relationship/partner? 2). What do you want in your relationship with your husband? 3). How do you feel about being alone? 4). What do you fear can happen if you decide to stay in your marriage? 5). What do you fear can happen if you decide to leave your marriage? 6).Overall, what is your greatest future fear of your marriage?
JV... I wrote these questions down from a very helpful book that I read not too lomg ago called: "Conscious Divorce" (ending a marriage with integrity: A practical and spiritual guide for moving on)... For me, answering all of the questions was hard for me to do, however; I felt that it was important for me to do so in a honnest manner.
As I said before, I am so sorry that you are going through this difficult time with your H right now. My counselor has helped me a great deal in trying to see all of the positives that I do have in my life. I want you to try to do this... Each night before you go to bed, think or say aloud all you have to be grateful for. Taking the time to feel grateful for what you do have will stop you from thinking so much about what you don't have. Your gratitude will bring in more joy and the positive energy to take action.
You continue to be in my thoughts and prayers... Please know that there are people who care and that are here for you... Take good care of yourself... -KIM
Quote: Did you love your H when you first got married?
H asked me this very question last night over the phone, and I couldn't answer it.
He also asked me, "At what point in our R did you fall in love with me? Before we got married and had kids. When did you know that you were in love with me? When did you say to yourself, 'I love this man, and I want to marry him. I want to have children with him and spend the rest of my life with him.' When did you realize that?"
I couldn't answer him.
H said, "Exactly. That's because it never happened. I think we liked each other, and we loved each other because we were very comfortable together. The thought of getting married and having kids was never in either one of our minds. We were just boyfriend and girlfriend, breaking up here and there, getting back together only because I chased you all the time and begged you to come back to me......and then you got pregnant......I f***ed up. I thought I was doing the right thing when I came back to be with you because you were carrying my baby. I should have just stayed away like I originally did. I know that sounds f***ed up and it doesn't mean s**t now, but you and S9 probably would've been better off......I don't think we were ever IN love with each other."
When I think back to our R back then, I believe H is right. I don't think we were IN love. We WERE just very comfortable with one another. I think over time that comfort turned into honest love for one another -- after we M. Maybe H thinks we should have been IN love first. Maybe he's right. I suppose that's the way it usually happens in a "normal" R, and ours was far from it. It was very rocky and full of drama......(sigh)
I do keep a journal. I haven't written in it lately. I've been doing the majority of my journaling here. I've been trying to answer some of the questions you gave me, and it IS very hard. I will try to answer them in my journal, and if I feel comfortable with it, I'll post them here, too.
Sooo......H finally came to the house about 2pm. I had called him this morning after I posted to find out when he would be coming by. At that time he said he would be here at 11am. Anyway, I told him to take what he needed for now and to try not to get his stuff out in front of the kids -- I wasn't ready just yet to tell them. H said, "Don't worry. They won't see a thing."
Before H got here, he called and asked if I needed anything. I told him no thank you. When he arrived, H was all smiles and being very pleasant. I was pleasant, too, but without the smiles. He sat down to eat a sandwich and watched TV for a bit. He did ask me if I still wanted him to leave, and I told him, "I've already told you how I feel. I don't see what other choice there is." H said, "I'll do whatever you want me to."
If only it were that simple.
I didn't say anything and went about my business around the house. The boys were running around in the living room so H told them to play with their GameCube for awhile then he was going to take them mini-golfing. H said he wanted to relax for awhile and play poker online.
It's as if H was "acting as if"! He was cheery and he was keeping light conversation with me. He was playfully joking around and even flirting. He would rub my arm, leg, or back whenever he was near. At first I was pushing him away, but the more he kept at it, the more I accepted it. I am sooooooo confused about all this. I understand he's trying to make peace, but how many more times can I give in? I don't even know if that's what I want to do.
Anyway, before he left to take the boys out, he asked me again if I wanted him to leave, and I didn't answer. H said, "You know what? You're right. I AM afraid to leave. I don't want to leave, but I will if that's what you want. I can go stay at (mf)'s." Then they left.
They should be back soon so I'd better go now.
I really am confused about what to do. I want H to leave, but then I don't. I feel like maybe he does need to go to see if that is the right choice because I know with the way things are right now, it's not right.
Kim, thank you so much for your time, thoughts, prayers, and support. It means so much more to me than you could possibly ever know. You've made me think a lot harder, and you've made me understand that I DO deserve to be happy -- and that is MY responsibility.
Thank you.
JV
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
I just thought of something, and I don't know if it means anything.
H keeps asking if I still want him to leave -- Well I NEVER told him I did. I just told him that I didn't want him to come home last night. H is the one who said, "I'll just get my s**t out then. How about that?", and all I said was, "Fine. You do that."
I agreed, but I didn't suggest it.
Hmmm....any thoughts on this? I guess H thinks I definitely want him out since I agreed. (????)
JV
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
IMHO, you seem to be using some of the "last resort technique" advice which is given in the DB book... I would advise you to be careful with your words with your H if you do not plan on following through. There are definitely times where he does not seem to take your words to heart. It is almost as if he is testing you to see if you will truly ask him to leave... Be careful as he seems to be quite manipulative with you...
There are MANY examples of the last resort technique which go into greater detail in the DB book;however, I wanted to share a few ideas with you which might help you a bit with your sitch: *It may be in your best interest to have your H see that you have had an "awakening"... That you are going to move on with your life with or without him... *I suggest that you pull back a bit so he can realize what he will be missing... *Take care of YOURSELF and do things that give YOU pleasure *Appear pleased with yourself and your own life... *Focus on making yourself a better person (call old friends, walk, exercise, hobbies, etc.)... *Do something that will put YOU back in touch with yourself- LOVE YOURSELF! *Try not talking about your marriage with your H for a while...
If your H seems suspicious and says that you seem to be "putting on an act" to try to win him over... Simply say: "This is the new me and I plan on remaining this new person no matter what happens to our marriage".
I know that with my sitch, I needed to make sure that before I chose to move forward with my life, I needed to be able to honestly say: "I have given it my all"... I am now learning to make peace with MY situation in finally giving in to the divorce... (My H was the one who held NO hope for our future together throughout our seperation)... I know that regardless of what I was feeling about our marriage, my H had a different perspective, and I have had to do some serious soul searching to try to understand why he was so unhappy. I realized that what HE wants out of life were undoubtedly impacting his feelings about me and our marriage. I would have loved for my H to realize the importance of our marriage and to feel as if I was #1 in his life again. Unfortunately, because my H allowed his negative feelings about our marriage to fester for so long he was less motivated to work on our marriage than I was. Despite our problems, in my heart I always thought we would be together forever... I am now able to see that my H's "dissatisfaction with life" (and our marriage) has MUCH MORE to do with a stage he is going through with HIMSELF and has LITTLE to do with me... I am sorry for taking over your thread to talk about my H, but I see many similarities with your H's tendency to blame you for his unhappiness.
JV... Try to keep busy... (walk, read, exercise, visit friends) in order not to obsesss about the problems in your marriage. I notice that when I do keep busy, it is a bit easier for me not to feel totally overwhelmed by what is going on in my life. I do believe that you need to prepare yourself for a long journey back to feeling close to your H again... You will need to be more patient than you have ever been before... For myself, I wanted to do EVERYTHING in my power to save my marriage and I knew if it ended in a divorce, at least I can say to myself that I tried all that I could to make things work... I know that at one point I tried to convince myself that I was going to be miserable for the rest of my life... But, I just will not let that happen. I know that I will move beyond this eventually and I will be able to reclaim my life... The same holds true for you, JV!!
Keep allowing yourself to feel your feelings... Treat yourself like the warm, caring, strong person that you are! Surround yourself with people who appreciate those loving qualities in you! YOU DESERVE IT!!! I am here for you if you want to talk... -KIM
I almost can't believe it. H has really left this time.
I'm not exactly sure how I feel right now. I'm sitting here and I just feel totally at a loss for words. I'm sitting here and I'm stopping to think for about 3 minutes between each sentence. 3 minutes isn't long at all, but when you're just sitting here like I am and staring into space, it seems like forever.
Wow.......H is really gone.
I'm not crying right now. I was earlier and probably will later. My goodness.......this just seems so very unreal.
I don't know where to begin about tonight's....."event"??? Episode??? Ordeal??? I know to start from the beginning, but my mind is a complete blank right now.
So.....ok. H called just before he and the boys got home from mini-golf. He wanted to know if I needed anything. I told him no and thanked him for calling. He also asked again if I wanted him to leave. I told H that I wasn't going to tell him what I wanted. I felt he needed to make his own decision based on what HE wanted, not what I wanted.
H told me that he just wasn't sure, and he was coming around the corner so he'd talk to me more when he got inside the house, but we couldn't really talk because of the kids, so H decided to relax for awhile and play online some more.
We did discuss things here and there when the boys were out of sight. Mainly about how H said he felt very sure this morning that leaving was what he was going to do. H said he felt it was right. He knows that things don't feel right while he's home. H said, "It feels right to be here because this is my home. It feels right to be here for my babies. But it doesn't feel right to be here because I'm not making you happy......I feel like I owe it to you to give you a chance at happiness. Even if it can't be with me......and this is how I really feel. CY didn't influence me at all. He just made me realize how I really do feel."
So H said he was sure this morning about leaving, but the more time he spent at home today, he wasn't so sure anymore. He continued to ask me what I wanted him to do. Did I want him to stay or go, and I kept telling H that I wasn't going to tell him. I told H, "I'm not going to make your decision for you. I don't want to tell you what I want because I don't want you to base your decision on it. You have to decide what YOU want."
I know I'm leaving out a lot. I just really can't think very straight.
So after the kids were in bed, H said he was going to the (card room), but he wasn't sure if he was going to come home or go to (mf)'s after that. H said he felt like it might be too late to go to (mf)'s, so he might come home. But then he said he felt like it would be best for him to just go there. I told him it was up to him.
He was really scared throughout all of this and his head was pounding. He finally took some Excedrin.
H kept going back and forth with not knowing what to do. He kept wanting me to tell him what to do. So I finally told him, "H, if you felt you were sure this morning that the right thing to do was to leave, then you should probably do it. It's going to be very hard, but maybe it needs to be done." I told him if that is what he felt was right, then to just do it and get it over with.
We did cry a bit together, but I actually think H cried more.
So he went in the bedroom and packed his stuff. Just enough to get him through the next 10 days -- he's leaving for AZ then for the last home show there and will be away for about 2 weeks. After he packed his things, he came back in the living room, put his suitcases by the door, and said in almost desperation, "Why won't you tell me to stay?! This is so hard for me to do! I don't know if I can do this!" I told H, "I WANT to tell you to stay, but I CAN'T! That would just be selfish of ME! This can't be about what I want. This has to be about what YOU feel is right and what YOU want."
H came to me and we held each other for a loooong time. H said, "You are the only one who has always been there for me, JV. You are the only person that matters to me. ILY more than anyone -- even more than the boys."
He also said that I am his friend, and he wants to feel that we can be friends all the way through this. Regardless of the outcome. I said I'd like that, too.
........the phone just rang. I know it had to be H, but I just couldn't answer it and now I'm crying .........
Ok....so H said he would call tomorrow morning -- well, I guess it would be this morning now. He wants to take S9 and S5 swimming and then he said he wants to stay here for awhile to watch the kids so I can go do something for myself. H said, "You can go shopping, get a pedicure, a massage, whatever you want. I'll stay here with the kids, and take as long as you want." I thanked H and told him I appreciated that.
So it was getting pretty late, and H was getting ready to go. I will never forget that image of my H holding his cases in both hands and the look on his face. I don't know how to describe it. It was almost as if he was studying me over for the last time even though we'll still see each other regarding the kids, and it was like he wasn't sure but he knew he had to do it.
We hugged each other, and H gave me a few kisses . H said, "We'll get through this. We just have to be strong. We'll be alright whichever way things go for us." I told H I know. He also asked me not to be mad at him for doing this. I told H I am not mad at him. I'm not angry, bitter, upset, or feeling b****y towards him at all. I told H, "I might have been very hostile about 5 or 6 months ago when this all first happened, but not now. Not at all. I know this is probably what has to happen for us." Then H said, "(Sigh)....This makes me feel better about things. I feel like we can get through this. I may just go crazy and want to come back in a month or even 2 days. I don't know. I just know that I want to feel right and I want to be able to clear my head......and I really hope that everything will be better for us in a year from now." I told H, "With or without each other, things will be better for us."
H gave me another hug and kiss and told me he loved me. I just nodded my head "yes". H picked up his cases again and I stood by the door with him. He walked out and stopped to look back a couple of times. Finally H said he'd call me tomorrow and see me then. He also asked me to keep the phone next to me at night. I said alright then we said goodbye. I shut the door, and I collapsed right there.
So......he is gone.......I know it's not the end of the world, and I know it isn't "over" by far........but I just can't believe it actually happened. It really happened this time.
I'm sitting here thinking, just thinking. About how I've told H that there is no such thing as a separation for me. It's either stay for good or leave for good. I'm not really sure how I actually feel about that now. I guess it's just like how I used to tell myself, "If my H ever cheated on me, I'd leave him in a heartbeat." Well that proved to be false......I don't know. I guess I feel like I've come such a long way......so why would I want to stop now?
I'm somewhat calm right now, and I feel like looking at this as H going away for a very loooooooooooong business trip. I think that will help me get through each day until I don't have to think this way anymore -- with or without my H by my side. Hopefully with. And hopefully with a new and improved version of H .
Ok, I'm thinking back and I know I left out quite a bit, so if I'm able to remember more, I'll post it tomorrow. It looks like I should also start a new thread -- and I already have the perfect title for it.
I was considering if I should move to the "Separated" forum, but I think I will hold off on that for now. Although H won't be living at home now, he is still very close (only 5 minutes away), and we are not bitter with each other at all (sorry -- I don't mean to imply that members there are/were going through this like that). This "separation" has started off much more smoothly than I imagined it would.
I do not feel like I'm separated -- yet -- so I will continue to "Piece".
I've got to try and get some sleep now. Thank you for listening, and, (((((((Kim))))))), thank you for being there.
JV
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
JV Sorry you are going through this. Try to keep strong.
The best advice I could think to give you is to be distant right now. Don't call him or make any contact. If he calls I would limit it to only the kid's. Let him sit and think for awhile. Let him wonder what you are up to. Let him see that you are getting on with your life. This may be the thing that is finally a breaking point for him.
If he asks to come home I would say no just for awhile. This would be the perfect opportunity to let him know that you deserve better and that you do want happiness in your life. Not meanly but letting him know that you do have boundaries that need to be met or else you will just move on.
To me it sounds like your husband does love you. He is just a very selfish person. This may be what it akes for him to see what he is really missing. But he can't miss it if you constantly call him or take his calls. Let him miss you for awhile.
I'm no expert. (Man, if I was, I'd probably be on the couch with my Wife instead of on these boards ) But, after consistently reading your thread, I just feel that he's a manipulator. Like Cally says, he may not even know it.
I echo what she just said about distancing from him. Man, you do deserve better, you know it, and he needs to know it.
I just don't know what to say except I'm very sorry. I think this will be a "good" thing for you though - after reading your most recent posts I had started to think that you needed some time away/separated from your H. I think you need to find JV
I know this will sound harsh and a bit uncaring but from what I've read I think your H needs to grow up. All the responsibilities he has have not just been heaped on him when he wasn't looking.
JV you are a super individual and you deserve to have the world given to you on a silver platter. You deserve to be cherished. Please don't forget that.
You've given me a great deal of food for thought as well. We are indeed VERY similar.
Take care JV. I'm sorry I don't have some sage advice to offer. Just take care of yourself.
I know that I have no control over him, but the choice he made put me over the edge.
) But, after consistently reading your thread, I just feel that he's a manipulator. Like Cally says, he may not even know it.