Well, I am new to this bb and forum, sort of (been a lurker unsure of where I stand for a while now but unfortunately things are clearly heading south now). Please allow me to review sitch details briefly:
Me 38 , teach at U W 34 , teach at same U Daughter almost 3, absolutely the most amazing child in the universe (sorry, totally biased here) Married 1996 S since July ’03 (yeah, that’s right – it’s been two years) D has been promised this month.
Brief history of time:
W and I met at university. I was in PhD program then. Married when post-doc, she was grad student. Put her through grad school. Then we moved to current location in 1999. I got position here and she moved as adjunct and later got a permanent position (strike 1- start of resentment).
2001- her dad died after long (10-year) illness. Since then, expressed mild unhappiness. I failed to pay heed like a typical idiot (read man). I was immersed in tenure battle (in my field a debilitating, life-sucking enterprise) at the time. So, strike 2 (stewing of resentment, wife is the kind that keeps everything bottled inside). We did have tiffs as any other couple would. Poor communication on my part. I am averse to conflict due to growing up with a guardian who was alcoholic and given to rages. Since 2002 she had already begun to distance. Intimacy was rare and I almost had to set appointments with her for Saturday afternoon rendezvous. She has always been too tired at night. I figured she was dealing with issues connected with dad’s passing.
Late 2001 – She gets permanent position in the department where she was adjunct. I made several errors at this point. I love kids (grew up around a lot of them –big family). She was not so keen. I was afraid of her entering tenure race and us not having kids for a long time. I was being controlling, as I was given to be in hindsight. Have realized recently it is probably due to my growing up with an alcoholic guardian- definitely my personality problem. (Strike 3 – much resentment that I was pushing for kids). We decide to have a child and to defer her starting at work for a semester. She also gets a semester of leave in her work. So daughter would be one by the time she starts work. I thought this was a good timeline (boy, was I an idiot).
2002 summer- daughter is born. She is on leave for the first year but I helped her (always shared hosework 50-50, took on more since pregnancy) by keeping daughter with me on weekends so she could get work done. Usual first-year mess – lack of sleep, she is overwhelmed. Frequent complaints of tiredness, life is too hard, sees bleak future etc. I don’t know what to do, I am doing the best I can to care for her and daughter. I took good care of her during pregnancy – she acknowledges this even now. I also was 150% there for my daughter who is the light of my life. Still am.
2003 summer – days before daughter’s 1st b’day bomb drops She asks for separation, retracts it, then a month later, asks again. I leave the house and find an apartment to live. Initially she asks for a 4-month separation, then extends to a year. I am a mess and commit every folly in the DB manual. I was the poster-child for anti-DB tactics.
2004 summer – R talk (I am still clueless on DBing – begging, pleading, arguing, I was pathetic). She says she still cant make up her mind. So she leaves and finds a place to live. Buys furniture, new dishes, the works. Daughter is very attached to her (me too, but she favors mommy). So, as self-sacrifice, I have daughter stay with her through this entire mess. This has been a stake in my heart, not to mention the hundreds of other slings and arrows I have taken during rollercoaster.
2004 summer – I finally (total accident) hit upon the DB website. I have been handling things with a little bit more dignity since then. GAL include : 1) have always been a runner, so trained for marathon, ran Chicago last Oct and plan to run again. W came to watch the race and after that things improved. 2) took tennis lessons and started playing tennis on my off days – much improved game and PMA. 3) Reading a lot of relationship books (spanning Dobson on the right to Deida on the left – Amazon.com must have a special employee dealing with my purchases alone). W has also been less angry with me since then and we have had pretty nice interactions. But she still has anger and resentment inside her. Usual pursuer-distancer dynamic. Some very strong movements (particularly last holiday season) toward me and then retractions. I cannot go dark or LRT effectively due to daughter. However 2-year mark caused pressure (her lease renewal, 2-year anniversary, my body language that said what gives). So, last week she declares she wants a D. Does not know what is wrong but she cannot come back to the marriage. She is torn up inside, I know, but holds a veneer of poise. I am torn up inside, especially when I look into my daughter’s face. Daughter doing okay, we both keep in our best spirits around her. But she senses something is not right. W gets really sad when daughter says things like (in response to my “You are the sweetest baby in the world”) “You are the sweetest dada in the world” or (quote from last night) “You are a nice dada”.
Summary:
So, after a 2-year separation she has asked for a D. She says she cant figure out a way to make it work, so she sees no way out. She wore her rings or the past two years but took them off after declaring intent to pursue D last week. Reason : “She has changed” and wants something different. She has a strong case of MLC I think, but I don’t know.
I have the greatest respect for you folks. I have been lurking on the websites and reading voraciously on DB and other such things (although my theory is better than my practice – occupational hazard of being an academic). I would really appreciate interacting with you all as I muddle through what is to come. Thanks.
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Welcome! Sorry to see you here, but glad you decided to post.
Yes, very similar sitches indeed! I have to run to an appt, but will post some thoughts I will share with you about having a child and working together in academia and the resentments you mentioned in your younger W. All familiar themes.
Thanks for your prompt response. I look forward to hearing from you. I am a novice to this board and am still trying to get the hang of navigating. So please bear with me if I am lax in replying to responding on your posts. I have you in my favorites however and the uncanny similarity of our situations definitely needs exploring. BTW, my W is from FL and I lived in FL myself for 14 years. I recall that your W has Iowa connections and we live in Iowa now. So, lots of intersections....
I downloaded and read all your posts (yeah, thorough literature survey has been done) and noticed that you mentioned something in your wife about: pride, coming into her own, finding herself, feminism, LD. All of that I see in my wife as well. W came from a rural background in FL. So she had a lot to prove. She resents all that from her childhood. Her dad was highly macho (construction worker, hard edge, big guy) and I am not that type of person at all (skinny academic, glasses, nerd jokes typically involving calculus, difficulty with plumbing and oil change for car etc., well you get the picture). Anyway, after my W became "empowered", she has begun to picture me more as a wimp than as a erudite guy (which is why she was attracted to me in the first place- I was once the anti-daddy, now I am the anti-Christ). So, what was once a positive is now a negative for me. But short of steroid injections I will have to change that image solely by demeanor rather than by physique. Actually, in that context the marathon helped. But, alas, it was short-lived. Anyway, I welcome all comments and suggestions and name calling. Thanks.
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Welcome to hell, though your hell has been enduringly long.
First, and this you have no doubt read ad infinitum, DO NOT make changes for her. Make changes for yourself and your life and the aspects you want to improve on. And you recognize many of the areas you wish to alter.
Two, there are no guarantees, as many here can attest to. You may save your R and your M, and you may not, but improving your life will benefit you in other areas.
One of the common themes expressed throughout these forums is that the spouse has changed. It is my contention, the WAS is the same person we knew and married and overlooked or worked through any issues we had with their emotions, beliefs, etc.
It took a series of unfortunate events for their behavior and actions to overwhelm us and fimally for us to decide to be proactive, instead of defensive and reactive.
Hang in and as you are aware, you will receive many helpful insights, observations and suggestions.
Texts: The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida: Set aside your likely overly analytical mind and let this book help you to rediscover your non-PC maleness. Not the howl at the moon men's movement guy, but one that can be quite proud of his male differences from his female partner. Helped me immensely.
The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman: Helped me to see her attempts to love me and realize why she wasn't recognizing my attempts. A necessary complement to DB & DR, IMHO.
Some thoughts:
UD, think creatively and do things differently as you DB. Catch her attention with your ability to keep growing, beit another marathon, dance lessons, music... Work hard to be a well-rounded man and to push yourself in areas you've neglected in the past - physical, social, spiritual. Then find what is pleasing and set out to make it a hobby/passion for you and you alone.
You'll have an unbreakable connection with W in your D3. In you contacts with her (Ex: pickup, dropoff of D3) act 'as-if' things are excellent positive, as if she's coming back to you tomorrow and you are happy about that. Try different approaches, DB techniques, and journal either here or on paper to note what works, leaving aside what doesn't.
Her anger will subside. May take 3-4 months but it will. Stay positive, stay up, and let her mourn the lost of her M (even tho she's the one trying to kill it). Support her with a blanket of unconditional love without stating your love for her directly. I found in my sitch, that my academic W truly doubts herself as a mother, and bright DB women like Jo gave me the wonderful advice to compliment her successes as a mother. It works! Her self-esteem is increasing, depression lightening, and she's contacting me more, with some initial glimpses of a friendship.
Wrestle with this thought: Do you want the M or your R with W?
Get more familiar with DBing especially by re-reading the DR text, and then start out by posting some specific goals here, letting folks help you to clean them up.
Thanks for your inputs guys. I really appreciate it. (Goal # 1 : become more familiar with how to work this bb. :D)
Bruce, yes, I have been trying to detach enough that I can view it as getting myself back in order and working on me. My sitch is kind of weird and different from some of you because of the 2-year lead time to declaration of D-intent! During this time we have been working very closely together, almost seamlessly given the infant daughter that we had. No ILYs, no intimacy, but just very solid friendship. In fact, we even did social outings together (actually she came to my social events, and up until Easter I participated in hers!). So it was always touch-and-go. However, even the slightest pressure elicited the same response- sorry, cant commit. So detachment has been difficult. I stopped pursuit at the beginning of the year. I seldom call unless it is to deal with D3 issues. So, in that sense I hadn't gotten the wake-up call yet (may be if I had gotten it earlier I would not be here now :crazy:).(Drat-why is this window for posting so small?). But now I do. I have already put in place some steps and goals which I will outline after spending some time tonight on it.
Gabriel:
Have read Deida - both Superior Man and Intimate Communion!! Fat lot of good it has done me huh? Well, actually I know that I have to sidestep the wimp image without appearing controlling (I have been this from time to time). I have already adopted the stance of unconditional love and will outline plans/goals along these lines. You are spot-on on the being a good mother thing- funny thing is she is an excellent mom and I have never spared WOA to her (yes, read 5LL as well) in that regard. In fact, I have never spared WOA at all!
I am going to sit down tonight and list positives and negatives in my sitch and formulate goals. Thanks and I know I am receiving your help right now and offering little but I assure you once I get over these beginner blues I will offer what I can.
Thanks and best to you all.
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Actually your situation is not unusual; I've many situations where couples were separated for a VERY long time. Something I confess to not understanding. If the WAS wants out of the R, then why not proceed with D and at least not leave the other person in constant doubt?
And another thing I do NOT understand and I see it in your interactions and others. Why does the WAS want to have constant (read weekly) interactions, such as family outings or meals together or other events? XW and I have NO dinners together or do not get together for coffee or lunch and we do not invite each other over for meals or to go out if one of us is taking the kids out.
We see her at school functions and birthdays, but no dinners, family events, etc and she wants nothing to do with my parents.
Well, she just dropped off kids and no mention of trip, so I'm letting it go.
My W did not want to D for so long because she was not sure that that is what she wanted. In fact, I think she is still not sure but is going to go ahead and do it because she does not know how to get back in the relationship. That is what she told me last week when she asked for D.
Regarding dinners etc it was designed putatively for mitigating the pain for our D3 but I have a feeling it also gave a soft cushion for her to exit the R (?). In retrospect I dont know if this was such a good move. I was constantly in her face and although the separation gave her space and although I did my best to do my own thing and be independent i did slip up and pose tangential R-talk type questions on occasion and there just wasnt a totally pressure-free situation for her. In a way, I think that the D will actually force a situation where she feels freer than before (less pressure?) and may actually turn things in a favorable direction? I dont know.....Any thoughts are appreciated. I know that this has been the case with Gabriel, but in my case my W and I were actually on pretty decent terms through all this. Couple weeks ago she was actually sitting close to me and touching (accidental and not so accidental) was not causing an dang-electric-shock-recoil type response. But the 2-year separation thing was sufficient to swing the pendulum all the way to the other side.
So, I dont know if darkness is good or bad. I dont think there is a formula here.
I have a question that I would like you experienced people to weigh in on:
She has mentioned the need for a divorce. I am trying to see if there is any way I can stall it. Should I try to stall it? She is in a period of great work stress right now and coul I use that as an excuse. Something like: "I know you are in a great deal of work stress now. I also know that you are mulling over the issue of a divorce etc. I just want you to know that I dont want a divorce but I would go along with it if it makes you happy. We are already separated anyway and divorce is only a formality at this point. But it is going to take a lot of time and energy away from you at this point so why not just wait?" Or is that controlling and should I just let it happen? BTW, she has been quick to ire in the last couple of days. I think she will go through with the D just to preserve her pride.
All inputs appreciated. Thanks.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Quote: My W did not want to D for so long because she was not sure that that is what she wanted.
I've never bought into that. Or as D as a means to reconcile or start over. My personal feeling is once they've started down the path to separation or divorce, they are done, they want out and why they stall, I have no idea.
I would not try to stall her. Merely make your feelings known, this is all you can do. "I recognize you want this and feel like this is what you need, but I do not want the divorce and feel like any problems we have are solvable."
Something like that. When X told me she filed, I said I know you want this, but I do not.
It sounds like it took your wife two years to reach the same point my now ex-wife reached in three months. Part of the problem I think is that our walk aways are waiting for some sort of sign or too miraculously fall in love again. Some are more patient than others in waiting for that. And some of our spouses actually don't want to keep us waiting. It is pressure on them that we are waiting in the wings for them to come back. They think divorce will make us wake up and smell the coffee. Of course stubborn guys like us won't even quit when divorced.
I'm sure that it's crystal clear to your wife that you want her back. Or is it? Validate that you are aware that she wants/needs this divorce, but that you don't. Dragging your feet after that will only be more pressure. You can't control how she thinks or acts. She either will file for divorce or she won't. You can only DB to the best of your ability and hope she chooses not to divorce. I like your attitude though. The divorce is really not much different than separation.
And I agree with you. This window is too small.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
