Quote: Keep in mind though that even if you don't get tons of replies it it a great place to get your thoughts out.
Thank you, Unsure70. I got some good responses at SI. Now, nothing. Oh, well. This is a good place to get thoughts together. I began keeping a journal a week after DDay; now am not writing in it every day, possibly because I am writing on this site. Also, I tend to spend more time than I should here during the day. I feel guilty about it because should be working. Our PC is not hooked up at home, so it is easier to work here. Oh, well, what can I say? I am weak.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
Responses will come depending on what you post on SI. When I was posting, I got very little in the way of responses, but I got a lot of PMs asking for further advice or telling me how what I posted on someone else's thread really helped them. That indicated to me that there are lots of people looking for help with solutions there, but not getting them.
So, with tongue in cheek, I offer the following, guaranteed to get responses on SI. Just fill in the blanks:
"WTF??? I was [name a household chore], when I discovered WS's new cell phone!!! That [expletive] doesn't have money for [name a household essential], but can cough up $300 to contact ["his" or "her"] [choose: "whore" or "b@stard"] a**hole!!! I am so ANGRY!!! I looked at the calls and there are [name any number over 30] calls to ["his" or "her"] [choose: "slut" or "d*ckhead"] in the past 2 days!!!! WS told me there was NO CONTACT!!! That lying, scheming, [choose: "b*tch" or "whoremongerer"] has ["his" or "her"] head up their a$$ and when ["he" or "she"] gets home tonight, I'm going to kick it up further until ["his" or "her"] head comes out of their mouth!!!!"
First welcome and know that you are not alone in this struggle.
I read the posts from NY - he's knows what he's talking about. He's set me straight a time or maybe two already with advice that works. And that is the good thing about this message board - you will get constructive feedback.
The whole idea behind the DR book and the process of DBing is to take solution-oriented action. When you first find out, you are way too overwhelmed by emotions to think solution-oriented. For a while, I looked for people to get support from who would agree with me about how awful H was. How awful he was to have done this to me, etc... Now, I avoid those people. Well, I don't necessarily avoid them but I do limit the conversations. If they start talking negatively about my H, I ask them to stop. Dwelling on the pain and the feeling of betrayel and talking negatively about our spouses does not help our situations.
I see it as we have to make a decision. We can cut our losses, file for divorce ourselves and live the rest of our lives bitter and angry at the WAS or we can decide that we want to do everything we can to make our marriages work and avoid divorce. I'm assuming you have decided you want to make your marriage work because you are here on this message board. You've chosen the high road, which is the hard road. And it's not easy.
I feel like the first thing to do to make progress is to seriously evaluate yourself and your marriage. Think about what your wife's complaints are and take each one seriously. How have you contributed to the problems in your marriage? I think it is so easy for us to point out others mistakes, but it is difficult to look at ourselves and accept where we went wrong. I was not able to start the process of forgiving H until I really looked inside myself and accepted responsibility for my mistakes that led to the problems in our R. No I've never had an A, but I did a lot of things that made him unhappy. The ironic thing is those were the exact same things that were making me unhappy with myself. I'm putting that out there as something for you to think about. See, my H didn't go out and sleep w/someone just for the thrill of it. Instead, he was getting from OW and this A the things that I wasn't giving him. So think about what it was that the OM was providing for your wife that you weren't. As that is going to be really important in re-building your relationship. You don't ever want to leave the door open for someone to step in again and meet the needs of your wife that you should be meeting.
Another important concept to help you deal w/the emotions and begin to heal is to look at things from your wife's point of view. Let me give you an example.
During the 3rd and 4th month of my sitch I was having a really hard time emotionally. I often called my Mom. I was just looking for someone to offer me support and validate my feelings. Someone to listen so I didn't feel so alone. Well, after a few weeks, when I would call her, she would start lecturing me about how I needed to move on and get over him and how I'd better be calling a lawyer because H wasn't coming home. That was the last thing I wanted to hear and lecturing me about it just made me angry and defensive. Then one day a light bulb came on- what my Mom was doing to me was the same thing that I was doing to H, except I was being worse to him because I was calling him whenever I felt like it and just going on and on and on. That realization made me finally put myself in his place and begin to think about what he was feeling. That was a big moment for me as it was the beginning of my attitude adjustment. (Before I go any further I must say, my Mom is in no way a bad person. This whole sitch has been very difficult for her as well.)
Think about how asking your wife for details of the A must make her feel. She may very well feel an overwhelming sense of guilt and shame. She's hurting too, and you have to keep remembering that.
Once again I am getting long-winded, so I am going to attempt to wrap this up.
You mentioned you had been writing in a journal. What kinds of things are you writing about? Are you only writing about your feelings? Or are you using it as a guide for progress?
I'll check back in and see what progress you are making. Stay patient and hand in there................TJ
Quote: For a while, I looked for people to get support from who would agree with me about how awful H was.
First of all, TessaJ, thank you very much for your response. I appreciate your concern for me. My first immediate response to DDay was shock, hurt, anger, disbelief, the usual. Immediately after, I set up a talk with the senior pastor at our church, who must have had a lot of experience with counseling about affairs. He asked if my wife wanted to leave, and I said no, she thought we had overall a good marriage. He also said I would be surprised at how many good marriages had to deal with affairs. This was a surprise to me, of course, not having had to deal with anything life this previously. He also recommended a very good MC, whom we are seeing once a week. He also said he thought the MC's position had to be as neutral observer and helper; not as someone who would join with me in beating up on the WS. Addressing my WS concerns: She has told me the main concern she had was that she wanted more attention from me to how she was feeling. I had thought I was doing that; I would usually ask how her day was and if she had any concerns. She says I have been doing this, but just wanted it more. The affair had started way back before we met. After they ended the affair the first time, we met, then began living together, then got married (10 years married). The affair developed over many years (2 years while we were living together and 10 years while we were married). I don't think my WS went looking for something so much as it was available again after having been ended. My concern is that when she had the opportunity to re-begin, she did not tell me that the partner had called her. I guess every affair is unique; I am not trying to justify myself, just give some background. It's hard for me to hear that I had not been giving my WS attention, since I believe she has held things back in the past, even though she knew I wanted to know about things that bothered her. Anyway, we have promised to work hard on the marriage and are both committed to MC. Thank you again for all your words of comfort and advice. I appreciate hearing about this from a women's point of view.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
Quote: [choose: "whore" or "b@stard"] a**hole!!! I am so ANGRY!!! I looked at the calls and there are [name any number over 30] calls to ["his" or "her"] [choose: "slut" or "d*ckhead"] in the past 2 days!!!! WS told me there was NO CONTACT!!! That lying, scheming, [choose: "b*tch" or "whoremongerer"]
You left out skank, skanky ass, "manipulative, sociopathic, borderline personality disorder bag of assholery" (direct quote), some slag he met at the pub, etc., etc. But there was a good post recently on Are We Being Too Hard On WS? http://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=53653 .
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
You're too funny, TS, and I see you get the flavor of SI.
I read the thread. It's a smattering of opinions, isn't it? The thing is that the workable solutions, when offered, are also opinionated against. That is, there isn't a foundation of support in that direction; opinions go back to "still, what they did was wrong!" sort of thinking. To be fair, that's found on quite a few sites, including this one.
The thing is that we come to these sites for help in turning around our situations. Even the person whose first thought upon becoming a LBS is to deal with it by thinking of divorce ought to be given another perspective, as divorce can be an inculcated knee jerk reaction; it's not a given that the solution to an A is divorce when indeed the A can be used as a wake up call instead.
What the affairee did will always be "wrong", there's no sense in staying there though if one wants to move ahead. Did you note how a few responses on that thread mentioned that the person couldn't move forward until they had learned to let go? In a real supportive board, where real solutions are discussed and implemented, that should not be the minority expressing that, that should be the majority.
BTW, Blondie was posting to me. Sheesh, it's not always about you!
Quote: What the affairee did will always be "wrong", there's no sense in staying there though if one wants to move ahead. Did you note how a few responses on that thread mentioned that the person couldn't move forward until they had learned to let go? In a real supportive board, where real solutions are discussed and implemented, that should not be the minority expressing that, that should be the majority.
BTW, Blondie was posting to me. Sheesh, it's not always about you!
I didn't look at all the responses that closely, but thought it was an interesting topic. Here's another: Why do WS's (WAW's?) cheat in the first place?
Here again, the responses are all over the map. I read the WAW article by Michele yesterday. I am still getting familiar with this site. Do you (y'all) refer to all WS's as WAW's or are only some WAW's. The description of WAW in the article does not describe our situation at all. I was very supportive of my WS/WAW. Never critical, always attentive (not enough, from what she says now). I was the one who said "I love you". She never said it on her own; only in response to me, "I love you", "I love you, too". We pretty much shared (and share) household chores; if she cooked, I did the dishes, etc. What else? She never gave a hint she was dissatisfied with the marriage (WAW - will try to fix what is bothering her in the marriage, then pull back if it doesn't work). Other than the attention to her needs issue, which wasn't an issue, more like, "You aren't listening to me"; but she would do the same to me, I would say something, and she would say, "What, I wasn't listening?". Anyway, if this were a big issue, there are ways to bring it up and let one know it is a concern. "Honey, I want to talk, I am concerned that you are not listening to what I say to you sometimes." We never had anything like that conversation. Now she says it is a concern, but God, to totally destroy a marriage -- marriage trust is destroyed, as far as I am concerned; we are in the rebuilding stage -- of 10 years over something she never even let me know was important? Anyway, my point is that many WS's, at least my own, was nothing like the WAW described in the article.
Do you go to the Met Opera? Do they still sell the SRO benches in the back of the main Orchestra floor? (Used to go there when I worked in a school in CT). Liked The Apple - went there for my first visit to run in the NY Marathon. Quite an experience to see all the different ethnic neighborhoods come out and make noise. My WS has never been.
I know everything is not about me; just didn't understand the order of the posts.
All the best,
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
TS, "WAS" is a generic term. Perhaps your W was a near walk away...
I was very supportive of my WS/WAW. Never critical, always attentive (not enough, from what she says now)...
Reading your post, in addition to your other posts, I get the impression you haven't realized all that you contributed to setting the stage. Now before you defend yourself, let me please point out that what I get from your posts is pretty much summed up in that quote of yours above. I read where you say it's not like this or wasn't like that, which is your perception of things, but come to find out wifey thought differently. You thought you were always attentive, now come to find out W didn't think you were. What you thought wasn't a concern, now turns out was. Sure, she didn't give hints as to her dissatisfaction, but you'll find again that's your perception, she'll think she did.
That she was ineffective in her relationship skills is not a justification for yours. That's something that she'll seriously need to work on herself. Yes, it seems that if she had only said something certain that appropriate timely action would've been taken, but the fact of life is that such announcements don't happen. By the time they're dissatisfied enough, they quit trying. Besides, there is no guarantee that even if she had told you point blank of her intent to end the relationship if there weren't changes that you would've made changes. That thinking is part of the grieving process you've been going through, it's called "bargaining": thoughts of "if only this had happened or if only she had said this or if I only I had done this or why couldn't I have said/done, etc."
Quote: TS, "WAS" is a generic term. Perhaps your W was a near walk away
So, the terminology here is the one who had an affair is a WAS and the one who is betrayed is BS (!). Because, see, my wife, our living situation does not anywhere near match what is in the article "The Walk Away Wife."
Quote: In the early years of marriage, women are the relationship caretakers. They carefully monitor their relationships to make sure there is enough closeness and connection. If not, women will do what they can to try to fix things. If their husbands aren't responsive, women become extremely unhappy and start complaining about everything under the sun... things that need to get done around the house, responsibilities pertaining to the children, how free time is spent and so on. Unfortunately, when women complain, men generally retreat and the marriage deteriorates even more.
This is the stereotype; that women are the caregivers and men are stiff, distant, uncaring, silent. Possibly this was true at one time for most marriages. That is nothing like our relationship. I have many times in the past, before DDay, asked her if anything was bothering her, how could I help her by listening to her problems and fears. If anything, I felt she was keeping problems from me, and she has said she did because she didn't want to bother me. Unfortunately, she also kept from me the fact that her old flame had called to rekindle and she allowed that to happen. And this went on for 12 years. Before DDay, she never once mentioned the lack of attention as an issue. We certainly never had confrontations or fights about it. I think it is a stretch to say that, if a man is reading the newspaper and the women says, "You are not listening to me,", that the man is stiff, silent, uncommunicative. As I recall, what I was not listening to was remarks about her family, friends, "Beverly is thinking about retiring; the party is next Saturday, etc., etc.. ."
However, I will bring up the attention request from WAS during our MC session tomorrow; I was planning to ask him about it anyway.
So, in other words, you don't take in the Met. The season is over, is it not? They used to come here to Atlanta, around this time, but I don't know if they tour anymore in the summer.
Peace, brother,
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
Quote: So think about what it was that the OM was providing for your wife that you weren't. As that is going to be really important in re-building your relationship. You don't ever want to leave the door open for someone to step in again and meet the needs of your wife that you should be meeting.
TessaJ, I was looking back over my thread, and reread your post from last 4/30. Thank you again for your interest in my situation and your reply.
NYSurvivor and I have been going back and forth on what I did or didn't give my S (I can't call her a WAS - Walkaway Spouse - because I have read the WAS Syndrome article and our situation doesn't fit) that might have led to the affair. To recap at the risk of being redundant, the affair began right after we began living together and continued all through our marriage (12 1/2 years total, 10 years of marriage). Two pieces of feedback I have gotten, one from my S, one from readings and our MC. The first, my S says I should be more attentive to her feelings, how is she feeling, what is she feeling, look her in the eyes when she comes home from work, how is she feeling? I had thought I was doing that, and she gave me that. She wants more of it. NYSurvivor agrees totally with her. The other piece of feedback, from readings and MC, is that some women turn to affairs because they are dealing with depression and an affair is dangerous and exciting. In this case, this has nothing to do with the betrayed spouse, and everything to do with the personal depression of the unfaithful spouse. I remember during our first session with the MC that he said, "I am going to take a risk and suggest something without knowing a lot about you. I think the reason for the affair may be a way of dealing with depression." My wife looked startled, then said she thought that was correct. She told me again the next day she thought he was correct. When the MC said sometimes spouses look for danger and excitement in an affair, I said hearing this makes me put pressure on myself to be more dangerous and exciting. The MC responded no, you do not have to do anything like that, this is something for her to work on. This makes me feel a loss of control, since this is something I cannot respond to and must trust my wife to work on, and my trust in her right now is very low.
Something else in the readings that struck me. In Spring's "After the Affair", Spring states that some spouses who have affairs seem to be wanting everything, a stable married life, and an exciting second life with passion, danger in the affair. You can't have it all, there are limits, says Spring, and I agree.
Once again, thank you, thank you, thank you, for your support and encouragement.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
