we all have backslides (just read my archives ) - just be open with your H and explain to him (preferably in a calm moment when you haven't just torn him a new one) that you are experiencing a lot of volatile emotions and ask him to help you not be critical, but productive in your talks. You might try the mirroring/validating/empathizing exercise I posted on my thread earlier today. It's HARD, and it sounds awfully awkward, but it works, and after you get the hang of it, it doesn't sound so awkward anymore. You could do it to your H then teach it to him in an attempt to mitigate some of your outbursts - let him know that the three steps do not mean at any time that he agrees or that you expect him to. It's just a way of trying to understand someone from within their world.
I'm a bit of a one-song juke box these days, sorry. But it sounds like at the very least your H is tolerating these dressings down with a good dose of tenacity. Good for him for not retreating... and THAT'S something you can validate.
thanks SD Alanah and Jennifer (will have to re-read your techniques and try them.
update Things are going reasonably well here despite my forays into anti-db land which are entirely fruitless and miserable.
Generally I am sticking to my goals of providing a love filled, happy environment, which includes lots of sunshine by the grace of God and lots of lovely meals by my own fair hand; Being a good and understanding ear (H is a relentless chatter but doesn’t want to talk about ‘it’) and outdoing OW on the sexual fantasy front. I don’t actually know anything about their sex life but have revamped my underwear/nightwear drawer to a BC standard and beyond and am making full use of having two houses, barns and 11 acres of secluded land! Beyond a doubt does a warm touch convey love to H. Funnily enough despite my previous disinterest in sex being such a huge but unmentioned issue for H I still think if I left it up to him we would still only ML last thing at night when I am to exhausted to even think about it. We have a big advantage in both being at home all day at the moment.
Confessions from H included that he and ow had been exchanging sexual e-mails 2/3 times a week for the 3 months prior to his departure and the fact that he spent a whole week with her in London which was pre arranged. Even two weeks ago he had denied anything more than a couple of neutral e-mails having been exchanged.
I asked him what OW thought about him from her last letter. She said that she thought he had known what he was doing all along and 'used her to slap my face'!
I said I thought MC was a good idea because we had such appalling communication skills. He said he was happy and couldn’t see the point. When I went further about dealing with issues with a mediator he said it sounded false and contrived.
He said he would read any book that I thought beneficial. I thought about the 5 LLs but that day SIL had sent me a book called Communication miracles for couples by Jonathan Robinson so gave him that as it lets me off the opinion hook as I hadn’t read it. All he has told me about from its contents so far is electric sex!
He vacilates between us having a fairly normal marriage with typical problems and him being seduced by OW thus looking at marriage with distorted view and me being the bitch from hell who deliberately set out to make his life miserable for 16 years. I am still v. uncomfortable with the latter needless to say.
I have become very aware how sensitive he is to me not loving him. He has mentioned it several times – if I look sad or glum he is instantly on guard and even when I expressed (Ithought) my hurt about betrayal and abandonment from a very personal perspective without saying ‘you did this to me’ he said ‘Do you hate me’ when I said ‘no I love you’ he said you sound as if you hate me. I found it quite baffling but now am not surprised that he thought I didn’t love him before.
On the other hand I am finding his attitude to the children quite difficult. For someone so sensitive to their own neeed to be loved he still reacts to them often with angry shouting. He did it the other night to DDs 10 and 6 and it was very hard for me not to go and comfort them. I was already in bed at the time. Don’t know how to bring this up without being bossy. DD14 is fairly mouthy which really gets up his nose and he responds in a very negative way. I think having been away for 10 months he should be a bit more tolerant and also give them a lot more love and security than normal. Hmmm.
I still feel slightly parental with H which I hate. Who knows the key to an equitable M? (yes already I can see that the above paragraph is a direct clue to this one but can’t see the way to go)
It's great to get your news. It feels like reading something that's been written on the other side of the divide and not knowing whether or not I'll ever get there.
I must say that I'm so impressed with how you seem to be managing it all. Does it feel unreal at times? Does it ever seem as if it was all a bad dream? Are you on your guard or do you feel pretty secure about H being back home for good? How do you feel about OW?
I'd also like to know how to be less parental in my R with H so let me know if you gain any insights on that. I think it's great that you managed not to rescue the kids. I have a hard time with that.
Keep up the good work. You really are an inspiration.
XOXO Wendy
Me: 51 H: 52 T: 23 yrs M: 19 yrs S18, D16, S14 (special needs) PA: 2003/2004 Piecing: 2004 on Suspect H had EA: 8/2012-12/2012
MidiP, of course you can't dictate how he parents, but how about sitting with it awhile and see what's happening? Do you think he is generally alway irritated with the children, or is he taking out frustrations on them, or is he projecting his own issues onto them, or is he someone who doesn't particularly like children...
Maybe after some shrewd observation time (and noninterference) you can approach him with your concerns or ideas. Definitely LEAVE IT for a calm and open moment, and not in the middle of a down period.
As for the bringing up of wounds inflicted, it's perfectly normal, but you do see how unproductive it is. Try to see him as a wounded human being with pain and suffering and fears of his own, and come at it from a compassionate point of view. You know he's not trying to hurt you or NOT contribute, right? So look deeper, see what he's afraid of, what he's crying out for, and try to see him as another person in the world, struggling.
Not to downplay the courage it took to be alone with all that's on your plate for so long, but remember - with not thinking coming back was an option, how much courage it took for him to make that move. And it was out of love for you and the children.
It's so hard, MidiP. Don't be so hard on yourself, and try to relax. There will be all the time in the world to talk about OW, abandonment, etc. NOW is not the time - now is the time to enjoy your honeymoon (and your new underwear). Ellie must be so proud!
Ha ha, H is out for the day and I get to do neglected gardening and think about moi. Thank you wendy and and Jennifer – of course yet again you are quite right and I have come to some sort of peace with myself about not talking and my need to say how hurt I am is just really a way of saying look how bloody wonderful I am forgiving all this ! and of course it is counter-productive as it just makes him defensive and unsure. I am sticking with being a piece or ass rather than a piece of work!
So bonding is re-roofing one of the barns. This is curiously enjoyable – I can’t chat as have to concentrate on not falling off and a days work gives satisfyingly visual results. It’s physically exhausting esecially as it has been very hot.
Now back to my just resurfaced problems and apologies if it sounds really trivial and pathetic but I have just dried my tears and need to get it off my chest and would be very grateful for any advice at all.
Yesterday afternoon D14 remarked that our house wasn’t progressing because H sat around drinking beer all day. This was grossly untrue and unfair as he is incredibly motivated to get things done and achieves projects that most people wouldn’t even think of starting. H didn’t respond.
Some time later he said to me that he hadn’t said anything in case D14 started telling him she hated him but he was hurt. I said that he shouldn’t take it personally as she was 14 and mentioned the 4 agreements (though I could only remember 3 – not assume, not take things personally, be impeccable with your word)
I thought about it again this morning for a while and decided to speak further on the subject and the convo when something like this:
M: I was thinking about you being hurt by what D14 said. I don’t think she meant to hurt you she just didn’t consider your feelings. I can remember saying really horrible things to my parents not considering that they would be hurt. Maybe it would be good for her to understand that she is being hurtful and also this would validate her position to say what she thinks whether you agree with it or not. Even if what she said was untrue maybe she is entitled to that opinion.
H: Long silence.
M: So what do you think?
H : I understand what you said. Silence.
M: (now hurt that discussion has been terminated) I think not saying anything at all when someone has expressed an opinion is very hurtful. It is better to acknowledge it even if you don’t agree.
H: Youre right she is 14 and didn’t think about it. Do you think I am going to hold a grudge against her for hurting my feelings.
M: I am not suggesting you would but think it would validate her if you said something.
H: Are you suggesting I always ignore D14.
M: Not at all I just think its important to listen to the children.
H: Youre saying I don’t listen to the children.
M: No just making a statement that I think it is important to listen to children in general.
H: Why are you making such a big deal out of this. It was just a stupid thoughtless comment she made and she can validate it if she wants to.
M; I am not talking about her validating what she said I am talking about you validating her.
H: I better get back on the roof. I’ll drive D14 to her friends and I’ll be able to talk to her then.
And so yet again I feel bad for having a conversation any deeper than the state of the weather. He was incredibly defensive and I can see writing it out how I was forcing the issue and felt miserable, lonely and isolated as a result of trying to have a conversation and had a long sob. D14 then came in and asked me what was up and I said I seemed to be a failure at communication. She reported that she had said to H the other day that she didn’t like it when I asked her not to do something and then he chipped in with a whole list of reasons why she shouldn’t do it. She said he just shouted at her. I suggested the ‘I don’t like it when you do x because it makes me feel y’ approach.
He went off with her without looking for me to say goodbye. I called out of the window goodbye and also said that I would have been very hurt if he had gone without saying goodbye (2 hour round trip). He said he thought I had gone AWOL!
A better story is last night when H said that he was aware that I did a lot of little things, such as all the form filling in, meal planning, shopping, cooking laundry etc a he did big things in which you could see the result and didn’t have to do it all over again the next day and how much he appreciated me doing what I did. He said he didn’t know how to join in because I always got things done before he noticed that they had to be done. I said that in the past I had resented this (particularly as I found I worked all day and was met with complaints from people not liking the meal, the way I folded the laundry etc) and I was grateful for him doing the big things and I was trying to do less so I wouldn’t feel resentment. He said he loved me more and more.
He is very good at telling me he loves me and how much he appreciates the things I do. It’s just the things I say that seem to be the problem! How do you live with a gagging order?
Overall your sitch sounds great in that your problems are within M ones. As to how you'll manage to live with a gagging order, I have a couple of thoughts:
- You've shown yourself to be incredibly good at not saying certain things when you know that that is what will help you most in working towards your goal. I'm sure that that knowledge will extend to situations that aren't as dramatic as staying married or getting divorced. In other words, in time, you will be better and better at not saying things that you later wish you hadn't.
- I also think that you've become so good at analysing the effects of what you say on your H that you will become better and better at guaging how to say things more productively. I get the sense that you are a lot more sensitive to the effect on your H of your words now than you were pre-bomb. Is that true? I know you are a determined and fast learner so I don't see why that would change.
I think it is fantastic that your H is telling you that he loves you more and more. What do you tell him?
I love getting your updates. Don't stop! How are you feeling about OW at the moment. I'm sorry to bring that up but I'm curious. I see OW quite often these days--unfortunately--and I feel quite agitated for a few hours after seeing her. I wish I could be more detached and I'm wondering whether you are or whether it's still something you struggle with.
Wendy
Me: 51 H: 52 T: 23 yrs M: 19 yrs S18, D16, S14 (special needs) PA: 2003/2004 Piecing: 2004 on Suspect H had EA: 8/2012-12/2012
long post This is cloak and dagger stuff now – it being 2.30 am. Paying guests arriving inless than 2 weeks and dds on holiday so even less opportunity than ever.
Am finding it difficult to stay on track with the up-close and personal dbing – long distance was much easier.
A week ago I was having lunch with H and DDs 14 and 16 and apropos of a discussion about the french and english meanings of sympathy we moved onto empathy and I said ‘according to the book I’m reading empathising is something women are more likely to do than men’ (or words to that effect). H said nothing but finished his lunch and said he had to go and do something. DD14 said ‘he’s cross’. Half an hour later when he was going out he was still very annoyed and only said goodbye without looking at me. I went to the car and asked he if was pissed off and he just looked at me and said ‘see you later’.
Three hours later he returned and immediately started getting on with something, indicating that he was still pissed off. When I found him I put on my bravest smile and asked him if we could talk.
M: I want tolet you know how I feel when you walk out without saying anything. I feel abandoned and feel that you are going to leave me again and I feel you are controlling me by not allowing me to speak. I don’t have a girlfriend on the doorstep and if I can’t spek to you I have no one to talk to and it makes me feel very isolated and lonely.
H: (in rage and this is very much the potted version) You were deliberately offensive in front of DDs after already butting into a conversation I was having with DD14 saying it was a silly argument (they contradicting one another about french pronuciation) and already in the barn you behaved like a lunatic when I asked you about which metal you were trhowing out.
M: I thought I indicated with my arm the pile.
H: and I suppose you didn’t fly off the handle when I made a mistake in A--- the other day, and on Saturday I came off the roof to have a cup of coffee and you gave me a monologue (see last post) and that is exactly the sort of thing that made me leave you in the first place.
M: I was talking about DD14 why were you offended by that?
H: You are offensive. I have always thought it better to avoid an argument but if you want a fight next time you’re offensive I’ll stay and fight and give you a good run for your money.
M: (crying) I don’t want a fight. I just wanted to tell you that I felt abandoned by you leaving this afternoon and it has happened so often in the past before you left.
An hour later we managed to have a fairly normal conversation about it which is a major breakthrough and I asked him if next time he could say he found me offensive rather than I was offensive.
I stewed over this exchange for a few days and spoke to him again about feeling controlled and unable to express my opinions. (this is a very strong fear and I sometimes think of something to say and get terrified even thinking about it)
His mother has mentioned watching what she says to H, DD14 said it the other day.
Saturday night I was vile to him about skiing holiday.
In between all this we are still having a nice time together lots of ML and laughing.
And now for todays upset.
I came back early from doctors appt and H seemed nervously surprised to see me. The computer was on so I checked history and to my horror found porn sites.
M: I am very threatened by the sites you are looking at.
H: I am reallly sorry.
He has reitterated how ashamed and sorry he is all day . He has been looking at them for about three years and said it was a habit and it wasn’t about sex but adrenalin. I asked him if he looked when he was with OW – no because they ML 3 times a day and he didn’t have private computer access. I said I didn’t hink it was a very helpful habit to pick up again. I have been very calm but unable to validate or empathise at all other than thank him for giving me all the information.
I have never had particularly strong opinions about porn before as it hasn’t been a personal issue. I feel completely wretched. Degraded by association. Repulsed and above all (I think) angry that H would still engage in behaviour knowing that it would hurt me.
He has come down twice since I started writing this to ask me to go back to bed because he feels abandoned. I know he feels miserable. I have hugged him and told him I love him but really I just want to run away. Sexual desire has evaporated. Am I over-reacting?
Comment allez vous? (Is that even close to the right spelling?! Sadly, I have now exhausted what I know of the French language....)
I have been thinking of you often, Midip. When you last posted you had a large issue on your plate and paying guests arriving and I am concerned for you! Please post when you have a chance and let us know how you are doing.
Hugs to you.
~Alanah
"It seems to me that we often, almost sulkily, reject the good that God offers us because, at the moment, we expected some other good."
C.S. Lewis
) - just be open with your H and explain to him (preferably in a calm moment when you haven't just torn him a new one) that you are experiencing a lot of volatile emotions and ask him to help you not be critical, but productive in your talks. You might try the mirroring/validating/empathizing exercise I posted on my thread earlier today. It's HARD, and it sounds awfully awkward, but it works, and after you get the hang of it, it doesn't sound so awkward anymore. You could do it to your H then teach it to him in an attempt to mitigate some of your outbursts - let him know that the three steps do not mean at any time that he agrees or that you expect him to. It's just a way of trying to understand someone from within their world.