Last night ended on a great note (intimacy), but today is not so great, again.
Another R talk from H. He said he feels like he has to make a decision right now. He also said that he wants to be fair to me, and knows he's not when he keeps changing his mind. He said this is his family and it just feels like he should be here. He said it feels "convenient". He just doesn't know if he will ever be happy with whatever decision he makes. He said if he leaves and 2 weeks or 2 months goes by, if he wants to come back, I may not let him come back. We have both only talked to one other person about this about a month ago, and it's his sister. She's like a younger sister and a very dear friend to me. She has told me that H has pleaded with her to talk to me about just getting a separation. I am not for that. I just don't feel like I would ever feel the same about H if we separated and he came back after a while. For me, it would be the not knowing what he was doing or who he may have been seeing during the separation. I wouldn't be able to move on because I would constantly think everyday, "Is today the day my H is coming home?" I can't and won't live like that.
Back to the R talk. I validated his feelings as best I could, and I told him that when he makes his decision, he needs to make it for himself. Not to worry about how it's going to affect me. I want him to be happy, and if he has to leave to find that happiness, then he should do it. Whatever his decision, I said it would be best if he committed to it. If he stays, then he needs to commit to working on our R together. If he leaves, then he needs to stick to it and file for a D. I, of course, will not help him in any of this, but if he does file, I'll get an ATTY to protect my kids and myself. H talked about having the kids with him whenever possible as long as I would allow it. I told him that shouldn't be a concern - he can have them whenever he wants. I told him his R with the boys is top priority if we D. We talked a little more, and he gave me a hug and kiss.
Later when I was getting dressed, H came in the bedroom and made a comment about trying to get as much sex as he could before he left if that's what he chose. I think he could tell I wasn't pleased with that (who would be?!) so he said he was sorry, he was only trying to be funny. Hmmm...baaad joke. Normally something like that would set me off, but I let it roll off my back. Another hug from him before he left.
H is out getting the oil changed on the truck for me then he's going to pick up S9 from school before coming back.
I don't know. I feel like this might be it. I feel like I'm numb. Just dead feelings right now. H has called a couple times since he's been out, he continues to say "ILY", and I continue to act as if, but that's all it is. Acting. I still love him and want him here, but I'm actually ok if he chooses to leave...I think.
Thanks for listening.
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
Just some questions that popped into my head while reading your last post...
1. what do you think your h is hoping to "gain" by a separation?
2. Is the answer to #1 something he could get by having an "in house" separation?
3. Where do you think your h is getting the feeling of pressure to make a decision now? Would it be possible to just convey to him that not doing anything "right now" is perfectly possible and OK?
4. It seems as though you've told him that S = D for you. I remember feeling the same way myself early in my sitch...just the general feeling that if he moved out, I would move on. Are you really committed to that, though? Just wondering.
5. One thing I've noticed in your sitch is that h seems really reactive to wondering if you can forgive him and move on...also, that he's been interpreting your "GAL" as a rejection of him...have you doing more "home based" GAL stuff? IOW, you can certainly "GAL" by taking up a new craft or learning something new or doing 180s in the house. I think that one thing my h really struggled with after I found out about his A was the thought that I might have carte blanche for payback....do you think your h might be feeling something similar?
6. Finally, while I can totally understand you not finding h's "overtures" funny...have you considered just going for it? Lots of dissenting opinions on the board in this regard I'm sure but and other "date like" activities made our limbo time much more pleasant. Even when we had no idea what tomorrow held, we knew that tonight involved positive interactions.
7. OK, really finally now... could you live with saying to h "look, let's stop the R talks for a while and just take a break and enjoy each other's company. I need a break from dissecting the R and the future. Let's call a moratorium on this for now. You don't have to decide, I don't have to decide. Let's just do nothing for a bit". Even better...don't say it in "words" but say it in "action". Take the pressure off of both of you to "commit" and just do some fun things...take a walk or a hike, go to a movie, watch a riotously funny movie, whatever.
I'm not trying to minimize (at all) what you're going thru or how hellish "limbo" can be but forcing a decision before you guys are "ready" could really have a negative long lasting consequence, no?
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Hi, Sage. Thanks for stopping by my thread. I truly appreciate it along with your help and concern. I've gone back to look at your sitch then and now, and I applaud you. You are a true inspiration, and I hope someday I may find myself to be where you are.
My best possible answers to your questions:
1. I'm really not sure, but if I had to guess, I think it would be to have the time he feels he needs to really think about what he wants.
2. "in-house" separation - I even asked H today if this was something he wanted when he made the remark of things being "convenient" when he's here. I asked, "Do you want to separate but live in the same house?" H said no. I'm not even sure how to go about doing that. More of an explanation please?
3. The pressure, I would have to admit, is coming from me. When I first started DBing, I wasn't putting any on him other than demanding that all contact with OW had to stop. But the more he has been going back and forth with his uncertainties, the more impatient I have become. I would like to try and do nothing right now. I don't initiate R talks at all, and I don't bring up OW. The last time I did was to ask about the unexplained calls to her, and I haven't brought her up since. Before that, it had been quite a while. Things just seem to fall apart when H wants to begin R talks. I try to avoid them, but he keeps pushing them.
4. Yes, if H leaves, I don't see us getting back together, and that will based on my decision. I can't explain it. I just know that's my choice.
5. "wondering if I can forgive him and move on" - I have forgiven him. I've told him this about 4 or 5 times now in the past few weeks. I am so ready to move on and put all of this behind us. I want to move forward, but I think he can't. I think H is unable to forgive himself right now. What, if anything, can I do to help him? When H tells me how sorry he is, I tell him I understand and it's going to be alright now. What else can I say or do?..."GAL in the house" - I will have to focus more on this. I've been GAL outside the house, but I guess I never thought about doing it in the house. Thank you, and I will try..."H's feelings of possible payback" - I would never do this, but my H may possibly be having those kinds of feelings due to my going out with my single friends. Before the A, I never went out unless it was with H. I didn't have a social life without him. Now that I'm starting to, maybe this is a threat to him.
6. I get what you're saying. I have thought about just doing it, but I'm hesitant because I get turned down whenever I initiate intimacy or playing around. I can remember acting on his overtures a couple of times in the past, I tried taking him up on them, but H would say, "I was just kidding" or "I didn't mean now." I will try to overcome my fear of more possible rejection and try to take him up on this if he puts it out there again.
7. Yes, I could live with that. After thinking about our last few convos, I definitely could live with that. So let's say we decide to put everything on hold right now. H agrees to it, but a few days later, he changes his mind again. This is my dilemma. The going back and forth again and again and again. How do we deal with this?
You are absolutely right about forcing a decision. I don't want it to be the wrong one, but I'm just afraid that the wrong decision for me will be right for H, and vice versa. I've been sitting here for an hour or so just thinking, and I know that I'm not "ready" for any decision to be made, and I don't think H is either. I'm going to try question #7 with H when he returns later. He took S9 and S5 bowling after school. I won't do it immediately, but soon. Before he makes a "hurried" decision to leave.
Thank you so much, Sage. You opened my eyes a lot wider today.
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
1. I'm really not sure, but if I had to guess, I think it would be to have the time he feels he needs to really think about what he wants.
OK...so is that something that you can give him space to do while you're still in the same home?
Quote: 2. "in-house" separation - I even asked H today if this was something he wanted when he made the remark of things being "convenient" when he's here. I asked, "Do you want to separate but live in the same house?" H said no. I'm not even sure how to go about doing that. More of an explanation please?
Oh, I don't know exactly what I was thinking when I wrote it...more along the lines of "are you ok with being in limbo while he's living with you and not being pressuring re. 'does he want to WORK on this M?'"
Quote: 3. The pressure, I would have to admit, is coming from me. When I first started DBing, I wasn't putting any on him other than demanding that all contact with OW had to stop. But the more he has been going back and forth with his uncertainties, the more impatient I have become. I would like to try and do nothing right now. I don't initiate R talks at all, and I don't bring up OW. The last time I did was to ask about the unexplained calls to her, and I haven't brought her up since. Before that, it had been quite a while. Things just seem to fall apart when H wants to begin R talks. I try to avoid them, but he keeps pushing them.
OK...so let's work with this...what "script" could you come up with to handle the R talks from h? Is he just venting? looking for validation? hoping to hear that you WILL commit? hoping to hear that you agree that what he did was AWFUL? Really think about what a transcript of one of those conversations looks like...what does he say? what do you say?
Quote: 4. Yes, if H leaves, I don't see us getting back together, and that will based on my decision. I can't explain it. I just know that's my choice.
I understand it. I remember feeling the exact same way. Kind of like once he was gone I would totally and successfully just be done. No need to explain. But you may want to stop pushing for an answer if you're not SURE
Quote: 5. "wondering if I can forgive him and move on" - I have forgiven him. I've told him this about 4 or 5 times now in the past few weeks. I am so ready to move on and put all of this behind us. I want to move forward, but I think he can't. I think H is unable to forgive himself right now. What, if anything, can I do to help him? When H tells me how sorry he is, I tell him I understand and it's going to be alright now. What else can I say or do?..."GAL in the house" - I will have to focus more on this. I've been GAL outside the house, but I guess I never thought about doing it in the house. Thank you, and I will try..."H's feelings of possible payback" - I would never do this, but my H may possibly be having those kinds of feelings due to my going out with my single friends. Before the A, I never went out unless it was with H. I didn't have a social life without him. Now that I'm starting to, maybe this is a threat to him.
I don't know the answer to this for YOU but ask yourself THIS...are there things that you are doing or things that you are saying that convey to him that you have not, in fact, forgiven him?
Also...what if instead of saying "yes, it's ok" when he apologizes you said "I'm not sure I was going to be able to forgive you but I think I can" or something? Now don't go do this! I"m just thinking -- is it possible that "it's ok, I can forgive you" feels invalidating to him if he totally is beating himself up? what if you said "yup, it seems like a pretty tall order to forgive what you've done?" kind of a 180?
Quote: 6. I get what you're saying. I have thought about just doing it, but I'm hesitant because I get turned down whenever I initiate intimacy or playing around. I can remember acting on his overtures a couple of times in the past, I tried taking him up on them, but H would say, "I was just kidding" or "I didn't mean now." I will try to overcome my fear of more possible rejection and try to take him up on this if he puts it out there again.
Isn't it possible that you're both pretty gunshy about being rejected right now? what if instead of going for you started bringing other kinds of intimacy back into your R? a gentle touch here? a nice hug there? (then go for broke!!)
Quote: 7. Yes, I could live with that. After thinking about our last few convos, I definitely could live with that. So let's say we decide to put everything on hold right now. H agrees to it, but a few days later, he changes his mind again. This is my dilemma. The going back and forth again and again and again. How do we deal with this?
You deal with the going back and forth by just hearing it but not acting on it or urging him to act on it. If I acted on every darned idea that my h stated with actual conviction we'd either be divorced or relocated or ...
My h says things with absolute CERTAINTY when, I swear, he's just trying them out aloud.
Here's my sugggestion...live with limbo. It's hard and it stinks and it's scary and whatever but just live with it for now. Start focusing on the GOOD stuff in your M, the stuff that got you hooked on each other. Listen, listen, listen to his rantings and ravings but take them with the confidence and equanimity of detachment. GAL away but personally, I would NOT leave it open for his interpretation (is she? isn't she?). Stop pressuring and forcing his hand. Re-read DR. Make some goals. Give yourself a big hug.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quote: Ok...so is that something that you can give him space to do while you're still in the same home?
I know that I want to give my M the chance to survive, so yes, I will have to give him the time he needs.
Quote: Oh, I don't know exactly what I was thinking when I wrote it...more along the lines of "are you ok with being in limbo while he's living with you and not being pressuring re. 'does he want to WORK on this M?'"
This is what is so amazingly difficult for me, but I'll try my very hardest. I don't get it either! I used to be such a patient person with anything and everything, but over the years it has just diminished. I will try though.
Quote: OK...so let's work with this...what "script" could you come up with to handle the R talks from h? Is he just venting? looking for validation? hoping to hear that you WILL commit? hoping to hear that you agree that what he did was AWFUL? Really think about what a transcript of one of those conversations looks like...what does he say? what do you say?
This is a real hard one, too. Maybe he is just venting. H knows I'm committed to the R. Maybe I SHOULD try agreeing with him about how awful this is instead of saying "it's ok." I'll have to really think about the R talks and how to better handle them if and when they come up.
Quote: I understand it. I remember feeling the exact same way. Kind of like once he was gone I would totally and successfully just be done. No need to explain. But you may want to stop pushing for an answer if you're not SURE
Agreed. I will not push for an answer anymore.
Quote: I don't know the answer to this for YOU but ask yourself THIS...are there things that you are doing or things that you are saying that convey to him that you have not, in fact, forgiven him?
The only thing I can think of is when I stopped initiating the "ILY"s. I always said it but stopped after reading DR. Maybe I should slowly start this again - being the one who says it first - and just see how it goes. Oh, and maybe one other thing. His car. I won't drive or get into it anymore after learning about H's A. Everytime I look at it, I feel like cringing because it's a constant reminder of him taking OW out to lunch or whatever else. He is contemplating selling it soon.
Quote: Isn't it possible that you're both pretty gunshy about being rejected right now? what if instead of going for you started bringing other kinds of intimacy back into your R? a gentle touch here? a nice hug there? (then go for broke!!)
That is how I usually start! A hug, a small kiss or touch, but when I try to go a little further, that's when I get excuses. So I guess I'll stop trying to get further for now.
Quote: You deal with the going back and forth by just hearing it but not acting on it or urging him to act on it...Here's my sugggestion...live with limbo. It's hard and it stinks and it's scary and whatever but just live with it for now.
Ok. I am going to try, Sage. I promise I will try.
Quote: Start focusing on the GOOD stuff in your M, the stuff that got you hooked on each other.
Unfortunately, I don't think my H sees anything GOOD in our marriage except for the kids. The stuff that got us hooked on each other didn't involve marriage or children. H has told me many, many times now and in the past that if we didn't have kids, he would have left long ago. He said in another R talk that he wishes he could have the last 10 years back so he could have gone in the other direction. How do I overcome that?
In the meantime, I'll do my best to DB. No more pressure for a decision. Thanks again, Sage. I've got more to post about when H came home from bowling with the boys, but I'll do it later. Have to get the kids to bed right now. Again, thank you.
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
H returned home from bowling with S9 and S5 at around 4:30pm. The boys told me how much fun they had. I could see on H's face that something had happened. When the boys left to go play, H said, "I told them." I knew something was wrong, but I didn't think it would be that! I think H knew I was surprised and said, "You wanted me to tell them, right? That's what I did." I said, "So you've decided then?" H said no, that he told them he MIGHT move out but it wasn't for sure yet. He said he didn't give them details (thank god! they are only 9 and 5!), he just told them that sometimes adults can't live together anymore. He told them not to worry, that everything would be ok. H said S5 took it alright, but S9 started to cry because he was afraid he wasn't going to see Dad anymore. H reassured S9 that wouldn't happen.
(SIIIIIIIIGH).....I can't even describe just how ANGRY I was! Why did he do that? Why have that talk with your 9 and 5 year old sons when you don't even plan on moving out yet?! Why give them something like that to worry about? I was biting my tongue as hard as I could. I calmly asked, "If you weren't sure about what you were going to do, why did you do tell them all that?" H said, "I thought that's what you wanted me to do?!" I told him not if he hadn't made a choice about what he was doing. H said he thought he was doing the right thing. I felt like calling him every name in the book. All I can think of now is my S crying and worrying about not seeing his dad.
A couple of hours passed, H came to me and said he was sorry. He thought that's what I wanted him to do. I said it was but only if he did decide to leave. H started talking about all the pressure he's feeling, so this is where I suggest we take a break from everything (thank you, Sage). I apologized for putting so much pressure on him. I told him I understand he has so much on his mind and is going through so many emotions, and with me adding to it, it hasn't helped anything. I said I was sorry again, and let's just drop all the R talks for now and stop worrying about the future. I said let's just give it a very much needed rest. H was silent for a few minutes then said ok.
That was a couple of hours ago, and we've been talking as friends. H is at the gym now and should be home soon.
That's all for now. Thanks for listening, everyone.
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
Quote: Unfortunately, I don't think my H sees anything GOOD in our marriage except for the kids. The stuff that got us hooked on each other didn't involve marriage or children.
So what DID get you guys hooked on each other? What was it like when you were dating? When you were first married?
Michele asks "what was different about the two of you when things were GOOD?"
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
He TOLD you why he did it...because he thought it was what YOU wanted him to do. Is this a result of the pressuring that's been going on? If so, you've already taken really good positive steps to abate that. If not, how did h get the idea that you wanted him to tell your kids?
Quote: H started talking about all the pressure he's feeling, so this is where I suggest we take a break from everything (thank you, Sage). I apologized for putting so much pressure on him. I told him I understand he has so much on his mind and is going through so many emotions, and with me adding to it, it hasn't helped anything. I said I was sorry again, and let's just drop all the R talks for now and stop worrying about the future. I said let's just give it a very much needed rest. H was silent for a few minutes then said ok.
EXCELLENT. Create some really positive, friendly times for the two of you. NO PRESSURE.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
What got us hooked on each other? - Geez, we were young. 18 years old! We spent ALL of our free time together. We used to go to theme parks whenever we could, catch a movie here and there, and sometimes we'd go hang around Pier 39 in San Francisco. We used to really enjoy each other's company. I still enjoy being around H. In one R talk, H told me that he feels like we're not friends anymore. We used to be able to just talk about anything. Actually, H did most of the talking and I did most of the listening. I don't know what happened. In another R talk, I told him that my biggest complaint was not spending time together like we used to. I reminded him of the things we used to do, so he said let's do it then. He has mentioned a couple times in this past month about "us" going to a theme park this summer. I'm looking forward to it, I'd like to take the kids, but I'm thinking this may have to be something we do alone only because kids weren't in the picture in the beginning. So like I said, I'm looking forward to this and I hope it happens, but I won't expect for it to.
Why did he do that? - Yes, I guess it WAS because of the pressure coming from me. NO MORE PRESSURE.
I'm trying to think of things we could do together in the meantime, but I'm having trouble. Going to the movies - I would love to go see a movie! We haven't done this in at least 1 1/2 years. He just has no interest in it anymore. Going out of town (i.e. Pier 39, the beach, etc) - I'm the type who loves to go places and just hang out, enjoy the scenery, but I think H only did these things for me, so now I'm thinking I have to do some things for him. H has always wanted to take me snowboarding or even boogie-boarding. Not exactly my thing, but it looks like I'm going to try it for him.
Have to go. H is calling me. Thanks for listening.
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
and other "date like" activities made our limbo time much more pleasant. Even when we had no idea what tomorrow held, we knew that tonight involved positive interactions.
could you live with saying to h "look, let's stop the R talks for a while and just take a break and enjoy each other's company. I need a break from dissecting the R and the future. Let's call a moratorium on this for now. You don't have to decide, I don't have to decide. Let's just do nothing for a bit". Even better...don't say it in "words" but say it in "action". Take the pressure off of both of you to "commit" and just do some fun things...take a walk or a hike, go to a movie, watch a riotously funny movie, whatever.