Quote: You just assigned "meaning" to actions and am making assumptions based upon your own values, feelings, etc.
Actually, I was thinking back to your original post on this incident. You didn't seem to feel too hot about yourself and your behavior but now you are rewriting history and reframing it as some Pinnacle of Differentiation.
So I DO understand what you are saying; I'm only saying that I do believe you are kidding yourself to reframe this as a good thing. Perhaps you and your wife have turned it INTO a good thing--if so, good for you.
Lemme ask you this:
Can you explain to me how taking your ring off was an example of how differentiated you are? Why are you trying to reframe this as something that was a positive thing to do?
Again, that is not me assigning my own values on you--this was the impression I got from reading your post about it.
One more question: That is great if you are your W are differentiated enough to handle such an event, but what about the women you are in contact with, at the bar? Is it fair to involve them in a Baggage Riddance experiment?
Sorry, Dave. I am just NOT buying how this is a positive experience. I think it was a mistake--one that you learned from--and now you can carry on with your wife and work on TRULY operating from a point of making a free choice to be together.
Here is one more question for you: Does your wife have any personal boundaries that pertain to you and your M? It seems that she goes along with whatever comes down the pike.
Quote: "I reeeeeeeeeally want to get laid tonight. I'll be at the bar down the street if you decide to get in the mood.".
Sounds reasonable. Based on his past reactions to you taking a stand for yourself, this just might work. In any case, you do have to prepare yourself in the event that he doesn't respond favorably. Do you have a plan in place in case he doesn't show up and step up to the sexual plate? On second thought, it might behoove you to steer clear of alcohol, as you might need all your faculties to enjoy the fruits of your stand or be able to deal with the disappointment of not having your H come through.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
What does H need in order to feel comfortable ML, or even comfortable in the R? What are his LLs? How are you filling his love tank? Have you considered that he may be feeling sucked dry with nothing left to give? Maybe not, but it's safest to check your own house before you start throwing stones.
I have thought a lot about his needs in the relationship. When we first met he was very open about what he wanted in a wife. Back then he was very vocal and able to communicate. He was married before and so was I. So I thought it was very important to really listen and take to heart what his expectations were. He didn't ever want me to use drugs, his ex wife smoked marijuanna and he hated it. I have never used drugs nor do I have a desire to that's not me. He wanted to have children so did I. We had two children. He wanted someone who would be a good mom to his children and stay at home and raise them. I LOVE children so loving them and be caring came naturally. He said he would like the house to stay clean if I was a stay at home mom. I am a neat freak so again no problem. And this came out of his mouth...he wanted a wife that would be sexual. He claims his first wife held out and never wanted sex but then was having an affair behind his back. I have always been sexual and can't think of a time in 13 years I have ever turned him down. So I have thought about his needs and tried to be all he wanted and needed in a woman.
I guess you and I see boundaries differently. Like I consider all the things he listed as boundaries and expectations. Not to cross that boundary line OR it means I may consider leaving the marriage or at the very least mean I am not going to be happy in the marriage.
I do feel it IS my business if he choses masturbating instead of having sex. Because it is something that is hurting the marriage. If he masturbated 5 times a week and my love tank would feel full if we were having sex twice a week, then I wouldn't care if he masturbated those 5 times. Even more I would understand if he got ticked off if I chose MBing instead of having sex with him.
I have tried many things. Like respecting the fact that he worked to support us. I wanted to show him how much I respected that by never asking him to do anything in the house. His time off was to relax. I would do the yard work, take out the garbage, I mean I did everything. I would leave sexy notes. I have tried lingerie. I have arranged baby-sitters so we could have time alone. I asked him what his fantasies were. He only named two. One of them I fullfilled. The other was something I wasn't comfortable with which was a threesome.
I use to be so gentle when I brought up the subject of sex. I remember being scared to death and not knowing how to approach it. The first couple of times he completely ignored me. I almost gave up in asking. But I gently approached him again one night 8 years ago. He gave me the first answer. He said I had gained weight with the birth of our son so he longer felt attracted to me.He said it's like you see a woman and think yum. I just don't feel that about you anymore. I was so crushed and I hurt badly at those words. He to gained weight and gained a huge stomach but was putting this one me. So about a year later he brought up my weight gain again. I asked him if he felt badly about his weight gain. I asked him how he could judge me when he was over weight also. He blew up and told me how could he lose weight when he looked at me. He had no incentive. Again I was crushed. But I took action and lost 50 pounds. With this being the only answer he had ever given me I was so excited. I thought I had the cure. But sadly it made no difference. I am a size 3 and he has put on 10 more pounds.
So I have tried many things. I could probably go on and on. But none of tem have worked and I am out of ideas and have become so angry and bitter.
You are right...I am rewriting history to some degree because I've developed a better sense of understanding about what was behind that. That particular night was just a compulsive thing and was bad...I don't deny that. But from every mistake I make, I try to learn something. The weeks following that forced me to introspect because yah...I felt bad. I talked to my W about how I was feeling afterwards.
Let me ask you this....
How would it make you feel if your spouse said "I love you and I'm committed to you but sometimes I miss being single". Would it hurt you to hear that? Would it feel threatening to have your spouse say that?
Quote:
That is great if you are your W are differentiated enough to handle such an event, but what about the women you are in contact with, at the bar? Is it fair to involve them in a Baggage Riddance experiment?
Geez, It's not a freakin' experiment...it's simply having some beers and chips at a bar with the added element of me trying to be a better listener, less anxious, and a self-evaluation at the end of the night. It's not just woman, it's anyone I can get the guts to say "hi" to. This has nothing to do with sex, gender, or desire. I'm simply trying to get the balls to socialize with strangers and yes, some happen to be women. We talk about everything from the family to cultural symbolism of the color red. While interacting, I just try to pay a bit more attention to how my anxiety, eye-contact, etc. is behaving. When I leave, I call home and give a recap to the W who says "I'm glad you had a nice time...I'm proud of you for being able to do that".
Quote:
Does your wife have any personal boundaries that pertain to you and your M? It seems that she goes along with whatever comes down the pike.
Great question! This is at the core of my issues with her. In my (sarc) rule book, I (sarc)"assign meaning" to it as "she must not give a sh!t about me if she doesn't care what I do". I have been behaving for years according to self-imposed boundaries. If she won't tell me what her boundaries are, then why should I put them on myself. Sounds pretty threatening doesn't it? Sounds like I'm going to behave a certain way until she tells me otherwise...doesn't it? We'll see. I'm free do dig my own grave if I want, or take the family on a vacation.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Why else would he have taken his wedding ring off? Going to a bar to have fun is one thing but deliberately misleading a woman you are talking to is another thing. In addition to that, his wife had no knowledge that he was out doing this so it was NOT an attempt to display his lack of fusion. In fact, I would question whether he is truly differentiated from her if he needs other validation from women in bars.
Hmmm. What if it didn't occur to Dave that this was going to happen BEFORE he went out to the bar? He could not have talked with his wife about it because he didn't know himself it was going to happen. So he talked with her afterwards. Yes, he was unsure himself of what happened that night. He went and figured it out by talking with his C and his W. Because of this incident, or maybe some other for all I know, Dave and his W opened up some serious honest dialogue with each other.
Quote: I would have no problem with my spouse going to a bar without me. I would find it suspicious if he didn't tell me he was going and then told me after the fact that he took his wedding ring off and tried to pass himself off as a swingin single man. He doesn't need my "permission" to go to a bar, but I would consider it common courtesy, I suppose.
Well, yeah, at home, but Dave wasn't at home, he was on the other side of the country and I'm sure just went with it. I don't believe he had an intent to mislead, (I'm going to go out to a bar, NOT tell my wife, AND take off my wedding ring to test my lack of FUSION!!) but then again, Dave isn't in court being tried for a crime, either, so...
Quote: I would agree with this, except all this "free choice" came about AFTER he made a ghastly decision to sow his oats for the night. So how free is it? How much freedom of choice did his wife really have that night?
Honey, I don't think Dave is repainting the picture, I think you are assigning premeditated motives to his actions now that the story has been told. A series of events happened. He had serious thoughts about it afterward. He talked with his C and his W, they figured it out. It's all good from where I sit... do I think it would have been cool that he had the coversation with his wife about ALL of that BEFORE it happened? Well, sure.... but he didn't KNOW any of that stuff until it HAPPENED... I think we should cut him a little slack here... he DID keep a grip on himself, you know.
Quote: I would hope that we would all go about figuring out these changes, which are an inevitable part of life, with respect and love towards our mate. To me, there is NOTHING differentiated about playing games with your M, and nothing further differentiated about a spouse who is so detached that they are ok with it.
Easy to say from the safey of a computer terminal. I think Dave was being caring toward his wife 'cuz he got his azz in gear and figured out what the heck was up... to you it may be a game, and with hindsight it's easy to label it as such. May you never find yourself in the middle of a situation and have a personal crisis attack you.
Quote: I understand that he has a lot of insecurity-type baggage that he is hauling around but the fact that he couldn't FIRST go to his spouse and say, Hey I am struggling with something... demonstrates to me that he is not nearly as de-fused as he thinks he is.
He didn't know FIRST, Honey. And sometimes, no, you can't go to your spouse first. Wouldn't it be great that you could and never have to run the risk of making a mistake.
Quote: So I have tried many things. I could probably go on and on. But none of tem have worked and I am out of ideas and have become so angry and bitter.
That's certainly understandable. It's not wrong to feel that way. It's just that it isn't going to help change the situation.
Quote: So about a year later he brought up my weight gain again. I asked him if he felt badly about his weight gain.
You've given some good examples of H being defensive, unwilling to take responsibility for himself, or just plain obnoxious. All of those things are detrimental to the R. They are also beyond your control. You've also given examples of you being defensive instead of listening (above), controlling, and resentful. Those things are also detrimental to the R, but you have control over them.
Have you read Gottman's books? The Seven Steps... one was a real eye opener for me in realizing how many of my behaviors were defensive (= deadly to the R). It was easy for me to see my partner's defensiveness, but I really did not recognize many of my own behaviors as defensive until he listed them as examples. Ouch.
I worry that your obsession with H's masturbation is causing you to avoid addressing the real problems between you. At most, it is a symptom of your problems, not the cause.
Questions for all of us: How do you demonstrate respect for yourself within the R? And do your actions demonstrate respect for your partner?
I've still felt like someone with a healthy, horny body who is missing out on one of the joys of living.
As my C says..."Ask your H first, then do everything within your moral framework to have the hot sex life".
She never said what activities she's talking about. Is she advocating infidelity? How do you define infidelity? Some here seem to think MB is akin to infidelity. Is an affair an "affair" if you have been given permission? Or does that label you as "separated", "swinging" or "open"? NOP has some definite opinions on this and my guy agrees with him. My boundaries allow me to go into a bar, socialize, even flirt. But I *know* down deep in my heart, that I wouldn't "close the deal" with anyone. Maybe some of us have a better sense of self-control than others. Maybe that's why I'm libertarian. Crap, maybe some people really need religion to keep themselves in control. Wow...I'm off on a rant. sorry mojo.
(I'm sorry cally, I've never seen a thread get hijacked like this before...we've now got 2 threads going in one...hmmm).
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Dave, I think my SO could have the same idea regarding this with me:
Quote: Does your wife have any personal boundaries that pertain to you and your M? It seems that she goes along with whatever comes down the pike.
Great question! This is at the core of my issues with her. In my (sarc) rule book, I (sarc)"assign meaning" to it as "she must not give a sh!t about me if she doesn't care what I do".
He hasn't ever indicated that he does. But it hit home with me. For me, (maybe not your W), it isn't a lack of caring but a real sense of trust. He's never given me any reason to not trust him. So I do. Maybe I should let him know that this is the reason? (Or am I creating issues for myself that don't exist in my situation?) Anyway, apologies to cally, just wanted to let you know that there may be another reason for your W's reactions.
I think the one core value that I cherish more than anything in my marriage is the "trust" we have. It's the foundation of our marriage. I think my willingness to limit my behavior, talk about the dumb things I do etc. is to preserve that trust. She makes me feel like I can tell her anything without being judged. She has been treating me in a way that she wants to be treated. She may not verbalize what she expects, but she's leading by example. I just started to understand this in the past year and have been trying really hard to stop being judgmental and untrusting of her (her motives, etc).
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
That's certainly understandable. It's not wrong to feel that way. It's just that it isn't going to help change the situation.
Point well taken. How do you help the situation if the other spouse is not willing to meet your needs? Another hard question is how do you work on the marriage if the other souse won't open up and just talk to you. The ONLY time he will say anything is when he blows up, the word F*** gets thrown in his words a 100 times. He is full of blame. Then I get defensive.
I haven't read that book. I will have to check it out and see if I can find it.
The last question is a hard one. I guess maybe my actions, and this is how I feel, don't demonstrate respect for myself because I continue to stay in this relationship. He once said an important thing to me....I feel I can treat you anyway I want to because you will never leave. Because then you would be forced to get a job and have to do it on your own.
