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Honey--

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Why did you think that you were giving more to the R than she was?

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I was just echoing MrFixIt. That is what I always thought! See my previous post from yesterday...you know the one where I delved into my pettiness. I did and always have brought a lot to our R. I was a good provider (somewhat), the compromiser (pleaser--somewhat), the sacrificer, the compassionate one, the uber-dad, etc. Now before you attack me...just know that I realize each of these things are relative and subjective. However, I know that these are all things that I am good at being/doing--I may not have done them in the proper ration/perspective.

Let me say again, my wife has admitted to me, C and even her friends that I am GREAT dad and a good partner...it's just that I'm not a good "husband" in her definition of the role. She even admitted to feeling selfish about complaining about anything to do with me when compared to her friends' Hs and BFs. BUT, she feels she just can't go further in a R that has no chemistry or passion. She needs a MAY-UHN in addition to all the other.

So, thanks to the GREAT info I'm getting here and my own observations and studies, I'm going to work to improve that aspect of ME for ME...and if she benefits, then GREAT. If she doesn't, the too bad for her.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to walk away from this. I made a commitment and I CHOSE her! But, in the end, it will have to be her choice to see me for who I am becoming.

Okay...enough self-validation! That's what all of you are for RIGHT!?

K

It sounds like you are saying that she had no right to complain about the lack of sex because you are such a great husband in all the other areas?

Is that right?

Or are you saying that the lack of sex shouldn't overshadow all of your good qualities?

Because it is one thing to say that you gave more to the R, and it is another to say that you did "a lot" and she should be appreciative of it.

Do you or don't you feel that she should do more either for your household or your relationship? In what concrete ways could she improve?

I am 'interrogating' you only because this is the style of communication I have with my husband. He will hint that I should do something different and then when I press the issue he'll say, Oh I just meant blah blah.......and sidestep the whole thing.

I am left confused..wondering if he really DOES believe he gives more and, if so, how can I up my own share in the ways that will mean the most to him; or, if he believes that it is equal and I just need to appreciate him more, then okay I can do that.

See what I mean? It is easy to want something "more" or "different" but really have no clue how to clearly articulate that to our partners. I suspect your wife is going through the same thing, with respect to her sexuality.

Also, get ready, here comes a whack.
You gotta stop saying that she wants a stud, a lover, a may-un, etc. I know you are saying this in a "kidding but not really" type of way. WE all may get what you are doing but even if you never speak a word of this to your wife, your attitude about her motives will leak through. She will know that you secretly deride her need to find the intimate connection with a man. Quite simply, you have no right to deride this need of hers. You had the chance to BE this man to her and you chose not to.

Now you have a chance to un-do that damage but first you will have to say to yourself, I don't blame her for wanting to be validated sexually--that is a normal human need.
And then you will be oozing all the right stuff from your brain down to your toes and everywhere in between and there will be nothing in you or about you that she senses is contrary to what she needs.

Hang in there, my friend!

Oh and listen....you have a lot of valuable insight to us HDW's. If you see or hear anything that we could be doing differently, please don't hesitate to bring it to our attention, mine especially. I can be dense sometimes and miss the forest due to repeatedly running into trees.

Later,
Honey

Mr Fix It and Keb,

Maybe I could offer some advice. Which to do so is going to really make me think deep and hard.LOL In reading what you two posted about your wife I feel like I am in the exact same frame of mind that they are in right now. I have the high libido. My husband has the low. I will just say this to refresh my situation a little. For many years I have known he has masturbated. He probbaly has done this more then we have made love in our whole marriage.

As for the gay part and me thinking it. I don't know maybe some part of me wants to say it to hurt him. Or to help this pain I have constantly felt that it was me. I don't think in me saying it I completely put it off my shoulders. Like I won't have to worry about my flaws because it just must be he is gay. For so many years I have beat myself up. I tried to be skinnier, dress sexier, change my hair, change my make-up. None of it ever worked but I still beat myself up daily. My own ego has suffered terribly through this.
But a big part of my gay statement was that I have thought maybe it really could be a possibility. For several reasons....
Reason 1....Everywhere I turn TV, articles in magazines, internet, etc, it always says how guys are the horn dogs. It is typical for women to withhold sex. Okay every guy I personally know all of which are married are this way. They complain they don't get it enough from their wives. Or they will complain their wives won't do certain things. Okay so back to reason 1. LOL...My husband has this wife who LOVES to give oral sex. With no strings attached either. He NEVER asks for it. Okay to be really open here on this forum, LOL I recently have found because I got to do it once on him that I like to swallow. I would like to perfect this and do it more. My husband knows this and does he ask? Nope! Never! He will masturbate in the short time I run the kiddos to school when he knows I will be right back. So he has this wife that would love to take care of his needs but he choses this....so the thought..could he be gay came to mind.
Reason 2......If I never complained about sex I strongly feel we would never have it. He never initiates it. Only and I repeat the ONLY time he will initiate is if I am really pissed and at the point of leaving and he knows it. When I get to this point he will take special consideration to initiate sex only on the weekends for the next couple of weeks. Then it always goes back to the same. So men are the aggressors and always want it. I have a husband who seems he could care less..so the thought came to mind could he be gay.
Reason 3....he has this wife that would love to fulfill his fantasies. Who is a healthy sexual woman. Cares about his needs and is kinky and loves everything about sex. Guys would love to have a wife like this. Not him. So the thought came to mind could he be gay.
See for years I have beat myself up and tried so darn hard. My ego literally at one point shattered. I have tried every possible thing I could have thought of. I have tried to be the perfect little wife for him. Cook for him, clean the house spotless daily, only ask him to do minimal things around here. I run all the errands, pay all the bills, etc. In order to take the maximum amount of stress I could off him. Hoping that would improve his drive.
No I am to the point where I have given up. Ya know we actually had sex last weekend after 5 weeks with none. I can already see he hasn't changed. It was to get me off his back. He hasn't been sexual since. See I can predict and we become very wary of the attempts. Because we fear it going right back to the same way. We have left the marriage kind of you can say. So when your heart is not vested in it you can't get hurt again right? I know probably without a doubnt he will try to initiate sex again one day out of this weekend. Then one day the next and then it will be back to the same. So I am beating myself up for having sex with him last weekend because now he thinks all is okay and it is not.
I don't know if the two fo you have said this...but for me a I am sorry would do wonders I think. Just for him to acknowledge he knows he has hurt me. The words sorry would show me that he knows he has made a mistake and is ready to work on things. If he grabbed me and told me he wanted me so badly right at that moment may do wonders also. If he went out and bought me lingerie and told me was thinking about me all day and saw this and couldn't wait to see me in it would do wonders. If he did anything that was out of the ordinary other then the same old things he has been doing. Because we become wary of those attempts that we have seen before.
Sorry if this is jumbled. LOL My mind is wandering in every direction today.
See I know I am very negative right now. I am angry and bitter. I am trying to break through it and I think this board will be helpful. Right now I am torn. Because a part of me loves him so much. But another part has had enough. That part just wants to give up and go and find someone else that would be much better suited for me. I haven't acted on it but have this guy that is so interested in me. He is good looking and has so much sex appeal. I can just see it in his eyes when he looks at me. He has been open about how his marriage ended. I met him at work about a year ago. We became friends and would talk whenever we were at a job. We talked on the phone several times. He was a shoulder to lean on for me and I was one for him. He thinks it is so bizarre how my husband could not want sex being man. See it is things like this that hurt so much. He tells me I am beautiful and sexy and to not let this destroy me. He says don't keep going on being unhappy. I am really at a point where I might just do that. It seems so much easier then to invest anymore time in this. Because this is painful.

Honey--
See, this is where I get into trouble. I say things that I THINK make sense...but in hind-sight they don't. No wonder, I find myself in the situation that my M is in!! And, I'm much worse at making my points in person!!! OI-VEY!

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It sounds like you are saying that she had no right to complain about the lack of sex because you are such a great husband in all the other areas?

Is that right?

Or are you saying that the lack of sex shouldn't overshadow all of your good qualities?

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I'm definitely not saying she didn't/doesn't have a right to complain about lack of S because I'm such a good guy . But, it is frustrating that all those good qualities can't help compensate for my one, main downfall. Does that make sense!?

Now, I'm going to step out on the limb here (and I'm putting on the armor). In our situation, I felt (felt being the operative word) that I gave more to this relationship than her. However, in some of our R discussions, she's made it clear about the things she did/does to keep our household running--things that I took for granted. But, if you are asking about concretes--she could be more appreciative about the things I do for our kids. She could step outside of her comfort zone to find a job that provides more financial stability. She could let her guard down and release some of her inhibitions with regard to personal intimacy...such as trying to lick my ear or perform oral activities. Those are just a few things...are they concrete enough?

So now I proceed with my tail between my legs. I make the comments I do...out of deep well of self-protection. I am still very raw when it comes to the whole not being "man-enough" thing...so, I attempt to joke about it. But, I see your point. I'm sure I don't exude the confidence or true nature of my understanding in regard her REAL and stated needs. So, I here-by pledge to you (not to her, yet) that I will no longer downplay her wants, needs and hurts as it relates to her sexuality. And I will work to establish a solid and achievable goal of becoming THAT person for her.

Thanks for the reality check and the good solid WHACK!
K

KEB,
If you gave more to the household, you gave more. No need to sound reproachful about it! If this is an area which needs to change, then play your cards right and bring it up when the time is right.

I think this is where resentment comes from...you feel that you do more for the R but here she is harping on you and threatening to leave.
So lemme ask you this: Have you told her clearly what you want and need? How has she reacted to this?

My H never really told me clearly what he wanted or needed. What he would do is get mad at me if I didn't do something. So I always find out in retrospect what his needs are. I'm sure you can see how frustrating that is to me. AND, even after I say "So H, you want me to make sure the house is spotless every day when you come home, is that it?" He will backpedal and say, Noooo you don't have to do that..I know how crazy that is to try and make it look as if we don't have kids. I'm wrong. Don't spend your time doing that.

But then danged if he isn't ticked off about it the very next day.

I learned the hard way that his needs might not ever be stated loudly and clearly and definitively. If you are doing this to your wife, please don't. It is not a pleasant thing to have the feeling that you can never please someone because they keep changing the rules on ya.

I think needing the WOA about your contributions to the household is perfectly legitimate and she SHOULD give that to you. Like I said, you will know when the time is right to ask for what you want--I'd guess that now is not it, but soon enough, eh.

Now, to hijack for my own purposes, lol, could you go into more depth about the not man enough thing? My H (like all LDH's I imagine) has used that exact phrase many many times. In what ways do you feel inadequate and how does that manifest itself in your interactions with your wife? Is it mainly in your head (your own insecurities) or is it something that she is doing or saying? In my situation I believe it was both--I made him feel insecure by bringing up other men who'd surely want me, and he did it to himself (I'm guessing).

One final question: Have you given any thought about what your love language is?
How do you prefer to be given or shown love?

Sorry for the whacks. I didn't mean them to be hard ones. I probably came off more pissy than I intended as I was absolutely fuming that my D2 unrolled an entire roll of TP and stuffed it down the toilet while I was taking a shower. (I heard her saying, I'm doing it all by myself, Mom! but I didn't yet know what "it" was )

Anyway, have a good one!

HP

cally wrote:
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He says don't keep going on being unhappy. I am really at a point where I might just do that. It seems so much easier then to invest anymore time in this. Because this is painful.
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Cally look for a reply on your thread, Do You Think Separation Does More Harm....

OG Lou.

I'm going to throw this out there and I don't care if I get flamed. I sometimes think that LDH's are just passive-aggressive versions of guys who cheat on their wives with other women. They obviously have the physical drive because they all use the porn/MB instead (the only exception on this BB is super-pious Mr.HP). My H even said "It's a good thing I'm LD because otherwise I probably would have cheated on you.". This is kind of a nonsensical statement unless you re-interpret it as "It's a good thing I'm passive-aggressive, otherwise I would have cheated on you with a real woman not just paper and video.". After all the same emotions that cause a more actively aggressive man to seek out an affair, resentment and a sense of entitlement, seem to be operative in causing less aggressive or action-oriented men to choose to MB rather than meeting the needs of their wives. I feel the same way about the issue now that I know that was what was happening as I would feel about an incident of adultery, I will forgive it once but if I ever, ever find out that he didn't show up for a sex date with me on Friday night because he was MB to porn Friday afternoon, my Amazon order for The Michigan Divorce Kit with children version will be placed before Saturday dawns. How's that for a boundary? Flame away.

Honey--

No worries about the whacks...they weren't more than I can handle! And, they serve a vital purpose in continuing the positive and productive dialogue here.

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Now, to hijack for my own purposes, lol, could you go into more depth about the not man enough thing? My H (like all LDH's I imagine) has used that exact phrase many many times. In what ways do you feel inadequate and how does that manifest itself in your interactions with your wife? Is it mainly in your head (your own insecurities) or is it something that she is doing or saying? In my situation I believe it was both--I made him feel insecure by bringing up other men who'd surely want me, and he did it to himself (I'm guessing).

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There are probably a million different reasons why guys don't feel man-enough. I think the main reason is societal conditioning. It has been touched on in a variety of ways--even in this thread. Everything you see, hear, read talks about the husband who always wants it. So, you begin to believe if you don't...you're somehow less of a man if that isn't who you are. Additionally, you don't know how to address it--especially younger guys. Who in their right mind wants to go to the Dr. and tell them that they don't have a S-drive? Or that their little soldier isn't as rigid as he used to be. I mean, those are problems for old-guys...not guys in their twenties and thirties.

Then, there are our own internal demons. Things that could have scarred us in the past. Our religious up-bringing. Or, even things like conditioning and nurturing. A good example of this in my situation is that growing up with lots of sisters made me VERY sensitive about being a gentleman and doing good things for women. One of my first memories (must have been around 3 y.o.) was of my sister crying to another sister about her boyfriend who took advantage of her. Oh did I mention that at the time, all six kids shared one bedroom. I didn't necessarily understand what it meant then...but I knew that it involved a boyfriend and he made my sister cry by something physical he did. When I was older, I understood and vowed not to ever "take advantage."

Oh yeah, don't ever forget the whole SIZE issue. Whether or not it's a myth, most guys (at least average or below) worry about the size.

On top of that, let's add expectations of the partner, perceived or blatantly stated. This one can be the hardest to overcome unless the two of you have amazing communication skills. Early in M life, we don't know (or at least most of us don't--guys especially) about things like love language, etc. Those books on relationships are marketed to US...besides, reading about relationship problems = "less of a man" because we can't "do it" right...so we need help.

Now, I'm not saying that any of this is necessarily RIGHT. Smart guys, would read the books and learn to communicate and do things like "S therapy." Because the tools you learn from that can help you become more complete and hence, feel more masculine.

It's just that there is a masculinity disconnect in there somewhere. It's a cycle and I have a feeling that in most cases, it takes a BOMB like we're experiencing now to actually get OVER that feeling of being less than a man and to take action to fix it! You see the cyclical nature of it all?

How do they manifest themselves in our interactions with our Ws? Well, how do most men deal with their problems? Ignore them until they go away. You have a problem? Ignore it--ignore her needs because you feel inadequate--maybe it will go away. Then, when the time comes to "fight" about it...you suck it up, get over your insecurities "fix it" in the short-term to end the conflict. Then, when everything seems to be hunky-dory, you can begin to ignore it again...slide back to the easy days where you didn't have to worry about the soldier slumping on the job or not being big enough to satisfy!

OI-VEY--I've made my own head spin. I think I need to print this out and take it to my C session this afternoon! .

Hope that makes sense! I'll catch up with you guys later...gotta run.
K