I absolutely agree with you and JJ on this. If it was merely a sex issue...she'd have been gone, it's more than that. So don't assume she's cruising for guys...unless of course she's flat-out stated that she is, which could only mean she wants to hurt you like she's been hurt...not that she's actually doing that.
I also agree with...if you want to show her affection then do it! That goes along with what I said earlier about being assertive and confident...do it, do it consistently...see how she reacts. But no matter what, be persistent about your shows of affection.
If for whatever reason she doesn't return them kee in mind she's been hurting for a long time, you need to try to be understanding of that fact too.
Here's a last thought for you. If she wanted out of the marriage, she'd have already been gone.
Wow! Lillie, JJ, GEL and Honey!! I gotta be careful...or at least ready for the response to my remarks around this thread!!
You guys really knocked me around and out of my pity party! It is so helpful to have someone put the realistic spin on what's happening in my W. When I get in my emotional "zone" I tend to see things very narrowly.
You guys definitely helped me broaden my view of things. Our current situation is a two-way street. So, I better get over playing the victim and get busy trying to make some progress.
JJ- On the "kid card," I attempted that just a little when we first started talking about the D. She was furious and said that she would NOT let guilt about the kids keep her in a bad marriage. That really hurt...but I knew not to talk about that subject any more. However, I am still concerned about her lack of interest in what's going on with the kids. I am a VERY involved dad. In fact, I do practically all of the afternoon/evening/weekend kid duty b/c of her work schedule. BUT, lately (yesterday included), she has done things I consider irresponsible (liking missing kids activities) to go do who knows what.
That was my thing yesterday. She backed out of going to the activity because she was going to stay home to straighten, do the grocery run and cook dinner. WELL, she didn't do any of it while we were gone (about 4 hours). Then she lied about what she was doing. That is mainly what had me so upset yesterday. (Go ahead and knock me upside the head ladies--just realize that I'm venting a bit here )
Lillie--The whole sleeping in the same bed thing. We have been sleeping apart for about 5 years now. (Read my thread on Newcomers -- Another WAW Story) Once this happened, my priest told me to catch a clue and start sleeping in the bed with her. So, I did. She doesn't necessarily like it but she does it because she knows it's important to me.
Honey/GEL--I'm confused about the whole acting on the intimacy thing. Isn't that against the whole DB course of action? Aren't I supposed step back? Of course, it's probably a good idea to take the advice of people who've lived this, huh! For the last two nights, I've slept with my hand on her back. Last night I was tossing and turning because I wanted her SO badly...but I'm afraid that if I tried anything, it would be considered a form of rape. I WANT to do the 180's in this department but it's seems to be a tricky line to walk.
GEL--I'm typically assertive in all aspects of my life. Probably too much so...I am pretty controlling actually (not good I know but I'm working on this in C). What I'm finding out though is that I've spent the last 5 years in some form or another of depression which has lent itself to me feeling defeated and less assertive...just more controlling!!! On some level, I knew what was going on but seeking help seemed like the "girlie" thing to do. I had always been able to control my life and to admit there was a problem meant that I had finally failed at it. STUPID, yes! I see it now and it took a full-blown crisis in my life to make me realize that I'm not invincible and that I need help...LOTS and LOTS!
Finally, I'm pretty sure there is some form of EA going on with her. She has always maintained that she keeps fall-back guys in the back of her mind. I have the feeling that she has been talking/emailing these guys. I know she's been talking to her bosses' son-in-law (who is in the process of leaving his wife). I also know that she sent a Valentine's card to someone because she told me. Then, there is the web address for an old rebound guy. He was the person she left when we started dating. He spent several years trying to get her come back to him.
Did you guys have this?
Okay...better get some work done! I'll check back later and try to answer questions or defend my positions better. Remember, BE NICE...I'm fragile NOT!! K
Glad to help you out of your pity party It is all too easy to play the victim isn't it? But, how exactly have you been the victim? Not beating you up here...really just asking. Are you referring to the situation now or in the past?
Ok now on to this
Quote: Honey/GEL--I'm confused about the whole acting on the intimacy thing. Isn't that against the whole DB course of action? Aren't I supposed step back? Of course, it's probably a good idea to take the advice of people who've lived this, huh! For the last two nights, I've slept with my hand on her back. Last night I was tossing and turning because I wanted her SO badly...but I'm afraid that if I tried anything, it would be considered a form of rape.
Here's a thought for when this happens again, that IMO is still a 180. Waker her up, and tell her that you want her so bad you can't sleep.
I swear if my H had done that I would have burst into tears (and I'm not highly emotional). The pain runs so deep that (for me anyway) that type of disclosure would have meant the world to me. I mean it was important enough for you to toss and turn over...did you have an erection? If you did you could let her know that too.
There are more options here than you're realizing, don't let her dictate all of your actions right now because you are afraid to overstep the boundaries....it's those boundaries that you two created to begin with that has your marriage where it is now...someone is going to have to be first to cross over.
As for the EA...no I didn't have one, but I've certainly had opportunities for PA & EA's. The reason "I" haven't gone there is that I would NEVER want someone to do that to me. Has this been brought up in C? Has the Valentine been mentioned? Just curious.
KEB, No ea/pa for me, either, so I can't really advise on what to do about that. I would be upset with her lack of attention towards the kids, but keep following your DB instructions on that one.
As far as our advice being counterintuitive to the DB process, I believe all of Michele's books are based on SBT. That is, if you are doing something and not seeing measurable results, do something different.
Also, you may have to do quite a bit of introspection and see what turns KEB on, what do you like, etc? Is it possible that you have gotten so out of touch with your own sexuality that you wanted to pretend that yours, and hers, didn't exist?
What can you do to bring that back?
What I'm getting at is that your focus...a laser focus, I might add...seems to be on your wife right now. You desire her, you want her to behave a certain way, you can't touch her, blah blah. I think a better way of creating a sexual self is to look inside and act on what YOU want. If you feel like touching her, touch her. If she rebuffs you, hang on to yourself and stay tough. Then try it again the next time the urge strikes. If she asks, let her know that you have spent too long being out of touch with your sexual urges and from now on, she can expect you to act on them. Then do it! You will know soon enough if this will have a good effect or not.
I know that with my H, I would push him away with more than a few choice words (and I know how to cut him with my words when I wanna ), but I secretly wanted him to keep trying. It was my pride causing me to push him away. When the day came that he could show me desire and I could receive it, it was really a wonderful and healing thing.
So keep at it. Give a lot of thought to what you want and why...who you are, sexually. Try different things and see how they work. Letters are nice because you don't have to risk much, in the face-to-face department. Touching her at night, in bed, is another good thing.
GEL-- I feel I'm the victim here because she is the one walking away. I know it's pathetic. But, I tend to fall into that trap these days. Of course, you bring up the past and I have a V8 moment and think, gee, I wonder if my W felt like a victim during all the years of neglect.
Okay...so I'm going to try to walk over the boundaries we've set. I tried a couple of weeks ago to tell that I was rarin' to go...but she wouldn't have any of it. Just said that I wanted it because I couldn't have it. I hope this works!!
As for the EA stuff, we haven't really gotten to that stage in our C. I posted somewhere (can't remember which forum) about our first C--who was a quack. From the beginning, he was of the mind-set that we were doomed and I should just accept it. Luckily, the W didn't really like him either. We started with a new C (a wonderful woman) about two weeks ago. We've only been to one session together so far. I've been individually a couple of times and she'll do the same this week. Then, we'll meet back again next week. So, there hasn't been time to talk about those things yet. I want to.
Honestly, I do trust my W. I know she loves me. She has gone out of her way to make this as painless as possible. It's taken her over a year and a half to decide to take action. So, now, she's done it and has the momentum, she can't stop or look behind her because she might chicken out again...which would be fine by me.
Okay...going on a tangent...I'm really good at that! Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Maybe I'll get the balls to take action tonight!
I can unoquivocably state...YES, she's felt the victim for a long time. And speaking as a woman who has constantly felt that neglect and pain it goes much deeper than you can possibly imagine.
I'm not trying to feed you a guilt trip here, just trying to help you to understand how she may have felt for a long, long time. There were days that I would cry on my way home from work after I had picked up our S from the sitter...and I just couldn't keep myself from doing it. Why? Because I knew I was going home to someone that basically ignored me and my needs. Who didn't recognize me as a "woman", I was a roommate and a mommy, that was it. I could have done that on my own!! I swear if it weren't for my son there were times I would have gone without smiling for months.
I really feel that my H was playing the victim too in the past. We both work in the Aerospace Industry and he works for a large airline who isn't exactly treating their employees fairly...and hadn't been since we met. I truly believe that he got so wrapped up in all of those problems that he forgot about me.
I remember our First visit to a C was very enlightening to him. Keep in mind I had been trying and trying in every conceivable manner that I could to get these things across to him....but it took a counselor for him to understand. When the C discovered I felt unimportant to me, she asked me to list what I thought his priorities were. I listed off #1 Work, #2 Our Son, #3 Our House/Property, #4 His Truck...then maybe me. I wasn't even in the top 3.
I wonder what your W's response to that same question would be.
Here's something that happened Sat night, which hurt my feelings....but I did something different this time and told him about it. This just goes to prove our communication is getting better...but I'm having to work at that too.
My H likes to blow-off steam and relax with his computer games, fine...I have no problem with it occassionally...but he tends to take it too far and play for hours on end. At one point it really became an issue for me...because he would absolutely tune everything else out around him.
Saturday evening, I put our S to bed at 7:00...had some movies for us to watch and was under the impression that we'd sit down together and watch them, just to spend time together.
He was on his game from 7:00pm until 11:00pm...I spent that entire time by myself watching movies alone. I found myself growing resentful of that...he's rather play his game than spend time with me. And it's not like we get much "alone time".
So...I eventually poked my head in and asked if he was going to play that thing all night long (about the time I was beginning to get peeved at him about it.) Naturally he didn't know what time it was, he'd lost track. So he got off the computer.
Sunday morning after he woke up I asked him if he thought he had spent excessive time on the game the night before, he said no..if he did it regularly that it would be though. I accepted that (don't agree with it, but accepted it), but I explained that his choice of times to play the game hour on end is often the only opportunity we have to spend time together...so I may as well have been alone, and that it made me feel ignored and avoided.
I didn't say any of this with anger, I merely stated it. Gave him verbally the benefit of the doubt that I didn't think he did that on purpose, but that this was how that made me feel...and dropped it at that. No more was said about it.
Fortunately I said something about it, got it out of my system rather than letting it build up. And I believe just that little bit of communication may have led to him initating last night. I don't know, not going to question it...but it's possible.
Quote: She has always maintained that she keeps fall-back guys in the back of her mind.
If you read some of my back-posts you will see that I actually created an imaginary lover for myself named Hank in order to get brave enough to deal with directly confronting my H about the situation by putting out marriage on the line. I have to admit that I might easily have had an affair over the years or left my H for another man if I hadn't suffered from low self-esteem because I used to be overweight. I actually did have purely emotional flirtations and there were men I worked with who were sexually interested in me but I would always step back if the flirtation got too intense. However, I would frequently have thoughts like "If H goes one more week without f*cking me that's it. I will overcome my inhibitions and "do it" with my chubby 20 year old assistant." or " That's it. It's been 6 weeks with no sex. Tomorrow I will go on the cabbage soup diet and as soon as I lose 30 lbs. I'm out of here.". I think the main reason I didn't end up divorced years ago is that my H is pretty good at sensing when I'm at the end of my rope and reeling me back in. Things have been improving in our relationship lately mainly because I've been shortening my rope by improving my self-esteem and demanding more respectful treatment and sex.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: I can unoquivocably state...YES, she's felt the victim for a long time. And speaking as a woman who has constantly felt that neglect and pain it goes much deeper than you can possibly imagine.
I'm not trying to feed you a guilt trip here, just trying to help you to understand how she may have felt for a long, long time. There were days that I would cry on my way home from work after I had picked up our S from the sitter...and I just couldn't keep myself from doing it. Why? Because I knew I was going home to someone that basically ignored me and my needs. Who didn't recognize me as a "woman", I was a roommate and a mommy, that was it. I could have done that on my own!! I swear if it weren't for my son there were times I would have gone without smiling for months.
WOW! With those two paragraphs, you just sealed in my mind the extent of my wife's pain. She has said the same things about me seeing her as a mommy, or a sister and a room mate. I heard it but didn't "hear" it.
She is so much more to me. But, I f'ed it up royally didn't I? I only thought I was showing her how much I loved her. But, I was controlling about $$ and she was doing the best she could. Then, I with held myself from her for my own reasons or lack of reasons. MAN! No wonder she's where she is today!
She's been trying so hard to tell me. She would try to bring it up for years but I didn't hear. GEL, I have been a terrible husband. No wonder she wants out.
I'm so sorry you had to endure this too. The thought of her crying herself to sleep or on the way home. It tears my heart out. You see I put her on a pedestal and worshipped her but being worshipped isn't what she wanted. She just wanted love and to feel desired.
It's like the bird in the guilded cage. It's easy to look at the beauty and admire it but inside, the bird is dying because it isn't free. It's the same for her and you and Honey and JJ and all you other women. I'm sure your husbands love you as much as I love my W...we just NEVER understood the depths of what you really needed.
I'm calling my wife to say I'm sorry. I've said it before but only because it's what I was supposed to say. Now, I understand that it's what I NEED to say. It may be too late but for both of our souls, she needs to hear it.
Thank you for the enlightenment. May God truly bless you and strenghten your marriage...you deserve it! K
K, I'm learning a ton from your responses too, just thought you'd want to know.
I am a former pedestal dweller myself. I never wanted to be there and I had a helluva time convincing my H that I belonged on the ground, with him. He had a very hard time coming to grips with the fact that he was married to a woman who liked to be f*cked. Nothing pretty or lady like about that, but it's what makes me really feel connected with him.
I too felt like a victim and WAS a victim. I told him what I needed and he ignored it.
In your sitch, I'd say you are both victims. You are both firmly on the ground. You can do this!
Do not overwhelm her with apologies and words. Let your actions be what changes her mind. Then she will know you are serious and you have heard her.
Honey-- Thanks for the advice. I'm going to write her a letter like you suggested. But, I'm also going to take her on a date and show her what she means to me.
I appreciate the prayers and well wishes from all you guys. It gives me strength and fortitude. K
)
For the last two nights, I've slept with my hand on her back. Last night I was tossing and turning because I wanted her SO badly...but I'm afraid that if I tried anything, it would be considered a form of rape. I WANT to do the 180's in this department but it's seems to be a tricky line to walk.
), but I secretly wanted him to keep trying. It was my pride causing me to push him away. When the day came that he could show me desire and I could receive it, it was really a wonderful and healing thing.