Quote: Your real problem is not him, your real problem is about your relationship with her that she felt was bad enough to go outside of. That's where you need to put your energy.
This is the best and most accurate thing I've read in a long time. Brilliant!
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
What if you were "there" ready, willing and able to meet your WAS' needs but they drifted away and then fell in with OP because their head is up their a@@ due to MLC or depression or whatever and never clued you in to what their needs were until they wanted a D?
Then if if you knew what their needs were, they weren't home long enough for you to meet them...?
Hey LastResort, that almost describes my exact sitch.
I tend to think though, that the WAS DID clue me in to her needs many, many times in the past while we were together. The problem was I didn't have my ears on or my head was up my ass.
Now my WAW lives with her boyfriend, and they live 130 miles away. So I'll tell you what I'm doing for my own sitch, fair enough?
OK, insofar as her emotional needs, I gather that some of them are: Validating her, which is listening and being supportive of her. Spending quality time doing things with her. Respect. Praise and compliments for her talent, her efforts around the house. So now I know to do these things and make them part of my nature, like breathing. I looked back and realized the signs she was giving me in order to know what her needs were. I also have the advantage of a journal she kept and gave me some pages from that detailing what upset her in our relationship. If you haven't a clue, then pick up "Her Needs, His Needs" and that book should help.
I wouldn't adopt the attitude that the WAS's head is up her ass. I don't agree with what she's done, and i don't like what she's done, and to be honest, I have my moments where I say to hell with her. But I'm on a rollercoaster, so extremes are a given. But don't adopt a negative mean-spirited attitude, because it will influence your behaviors and will sabotage your efforts. Let's be grown up about this. I made mistakes and she walked. She made mistakes, should I not want her back because of her mistakes? I figure I can move on and find someone wonderful to be with, and I'm open to that. But I'm also open to her. I understand people make mistakes. So, why should I cut my nose to spite my face?
I have to be willing to lose the battles to win the war. I have to be realistic.
So every contact I can have with her has to be very positive on my part. She has to feel as if my life is taking off wonderfully and is exciting to be part of. To that end, yes, I'm doing things, things that I know makes her eyes go wide with delight. Things that I like.
What attracted her to me in the first place 8 years ago? In her own words, I was smart, funny, witty, sexy, attentive and sweet. Still am. I show her that side of me. I don't show her the pain, don't vent to her, I don't backslide in front of her.
Mind you, I had backslid so many times that she was ready never to see me again. That near miss is what formed my resolve not to f^ckup again in DBing.
Also, by not giving her details but just letting her minimally know that I'm seeing others, and by not replying to her emails straight away or answering her calls, I let her imagine the worst scenario: that I don't love her anymore. She's not number 1. She needs to feel I'm fading away and she's on her own. She doesn't want to give me up, I'm a good person to have in her life.
I don't help her out unless she asks, or if it serves my cause to do so. But she has to experience life without me to catch her falls.
I used to consider the OM as a bastard. He still is, but he's not my enemy or competition, he's my ally! Living day in and day out with him eventually can wear his shine down to where relationships go when they end, you know?
I meet up with her when she travels in to the city. We've started having lunch dates just to catch up and meet up with each other. If she tells him that she's meeting up with me, how long do you think he'll put up with that until he starts to bitch and moan to her about limiting contact with me? That will start to doom their relationship if he does that. If she doesn't tell him it's me she's meeting up with but lies to him about this, then their relationship is doomed. Either way, they're doomed.
I have to show her that I'm happy without her, and I have to make myself happy without her, because she may never come back. And did she did come back, for all I know, it would be a whole bunch of headaches. It actually may not be the best thing. I'll find out when and if I get there. But I desire that option.
I have to become the person who she believes to be is the better choice for her, the more interesting person, the more loving person, with the greater life. And trust me, since she'll just see the best when she sees me, and not be able to have it, and then go home to the guy on the couch who's burping and scratching his ass or whatever, in other words, she'll compare the everyday mundane living with that guy to the best foot forward and best light I portray myself in, happy go lucky me, after a while, I'll bet she'd rather be with me.
The chemistry was once there, it can be rekindled. There was a reason she married me, she was heads over heels in love with me once. I believe I have more qualities that she wants than he has. She's not going to be with him forever, odds are. She cares about me - and this is KEY! If she cares, then all is not lost. They say whether she's angry or caring, that's good. That shows emotional attachment. It's when you're on fire and they don't even want to piss on you, that it's done and over.
Tons of time and patience are needed. This works on her schedule, not mine. Time is needed to show her my changed behaviors are consistent, not phony. Time is needed for her negative emotional baggage of me to dissipate. Time is needed to give her moment after moment of consistent positive experiences and interactions.
I track all this on a calendar. I look to see if her contacting me increases in frequency (yes, it has). I look for the positive little baby steps in my direction in order to know if I'm getting results (yes, but very slowly). Well, two minutes before your post I got an email from her sharing some news about a project she's working on and asking about another lunch date for next week. It's been 5 days since I spoke to her. She used to take a week to two weeks to contact me. Lately we're in touch every week once or twice. Something's working.
I don't anymore analyze what she may or may not think or is saying or doing, because that doesn't pay - not at all. I only observe what is very evident and obvious, and make my decisions as to what to do next accordingly and in keeping with these precepts.
BTW, we do have a divorce in the works, and while not the best thing to have happen, it's not the end of the relationship by any means. Fact is, I have a new relationship with her, not the old one that led to this misery, but a new one where my X feels more connected to me, safer and drawing closer.
Jabez4910 wrote -------- She told me that she could never trust me again. ---------- That is almost like W blaming you for the affair.
Keep snooping. Truth is the truth, you need to know it. You can't work in a fantisy world and make good choices. By knowing the truth, and I do not call it snooping, you might even find out what you need to do so the relationship will change faster. The term snooping conveys some guilt with it. Knowing the truth is a more honest term. Just modify your reaction to her. You can say a little bird told me instead of confronting her and keep her guessing about your sources.
Yes, I know that my *REAL PROBLEM* is with my relationship with my W, but we can't address that problem until she wants to. Until that time, I can do everything in my power to not push her any further away than she is now. (i.e. DB'ing) ***BUT*** there may be ways to knock the luster off the OM and show his warts to help this along. I'm not talking direct angry confrontation. I won't know what opportunities exist until I know the situation. Kind of like suspenders and a belt, extra insurance.
Keep snooping. Truth is the truth, you need to know it. You can't work in a fantisy world and make good choices.
I think you should be careful with that. I guess it depends on how you react to new info. I for one had to stop. If I found out anything new that upset me it made it very hard not to confront her with it and in turn was making me miserable. By showing these emotions it pushes her further away from me. I told my W about how I found out so that it would force me to stop. I already know enough so now I just focus on improving me.
I will admit that I still check the caller id list from time to time as that doesn't drive me crazy, but that's it. Just proceed with caution if you snoop anymore.
Yes, I know that my *REAL PROBLEM* is with my relationship with my W, but we can't address that problem until she wants to.
You've read DB or DR, right? The notion that it "takes one to tango" is true. You can make many, many changes in your "relationship" with W regardless of whether or not she's willing to commit to "yes, I want to work on this M". DB'ing won't just keep her from moving farther away. It can, in fact, draw her closer to you and address many of the issues in your M w/o her "agreement".
NYSurvivor's post to you is filled with excellent DB'ing advice and examples.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quote: Yes, I know that my *REAL PROBLEM* is with my relationship with my W, but we can't address that problem until she wants to.
There are two tasks, one follows the other. The first task is to make it so your WAW wants to reconsider the relationship. After she's agreed to reconsider the relationship is when you work on the problems that need to be worked on with her. Up to that point, you can only take care of your end. As you know, the idea is to purge whatever was detrimental in your behavior/ patterns that contributed your portion to the end of the relationship, making changes in yourself, for yourself. The payoff extends to perhaps attracting you WAW back, and if not, you'll still be better prepared for a relationship with someone else. Your first task then doesn't require her active participation. It requires her passive participation.
Quote: Until that time, I can do everything in my power to not push her any further away than she is now. (i.e. DB'ing) ***BUT*** there may be ways to knock the luster off the OM and show his warts to help this along.
OK, let us know how it goes.
If his flaws were enough to make her drop him, she'd have dropped him by now. Obviously she has blinders on. She's the one that put them on. She has to be the one to take them off.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. And you can royally piss off the horse too by splashing the water in its face.
I think until such time your WAW herself deems the OM's luster to have worn off, she's going to see him through rose-colored glasses. In her world, if you point out evident flaws to her, she's going to defend him and minimize his flaws, and she'll feel as if you are a petty, jealous, argumentative, controlling man. If pettiness, arguments, control and jealousy were part of the problem in your relationship with her (in her view), as far as she's concerned, the thought that you haven't changed will be reinforced to your detriment.
And what else could happen? Say she eventually grows doubts about the OM big enough to warrant leaving him? She might very well find yet another guy, unless you spent the time making her feel safe and comfortable with the new you, trusting her to make her own decisions, validating her feelings, loving her from a distance. To go on a campaign against her lover boy defeats that effort.
You haven't written anything about how exactly by pointing out his flaws would specifically bring her back to you. Some examples might be interesting to explore, especially if anyone here has tried what you wish to do. They could post their feedback.
Thanks for your "model" story of DBing done right. I'm really not angry and mean spirited toward (now) H but I was in a mood last night. It shows, eh? More than anything, I feel sorry for H. I guess that makes me co-dependent or a big sucker!
Our stories are similar but H is less communicative and more indifferent than your W. He is also not living with OW yet. I have been plugging away and doing all the things you are doing but have less opportunity. The LL/need I'm least able to meet now is a biggie. PT. H's other main LL is WOA, which I try to do at every opportunity. I'll keep on keepin' on. Thanks for the book recommendation. That's one that I haven't read yet.
Thanks for taking the time to write all that out and share your story.
Wow, what a great discussion. Jabez you're getting some great insights here from NYS especially & the others. You've all helped inspire me to make it though another day. Catch up with me at: Bill's sitch One thing about snooping/spying. I too struggle mightily with this as I believe that the truth must be known to make correct decisions. However, be prepared, because the truth often hurts (much more than you think). Caution yourself not to react until you've had time to simmer down a little after you find out things you really didn't want to know. And after you get your nose rubbed in it enough you might get to NYS's perspective and stop trying to find out everything and accept, detach & whatever. Some days I think I'm there... other days I know I'm not. Let's keep working on ourselves and hopefully we'll all attract the one's we love back into our lives. Bill
More than anything, I feel sorry for H. I guess that makes me co-dependent or a big sucker!