The second issue exacerbates the first one when it comes to making joint decisions. But they aren't the same. If you precede your W in death, she may take 2 weeks to pick out the casket.
People who have a hard time making decisions are afraid they will make the wrong choice. In making a choice, you walk through a doorway - you never get to find out what is behind the other door. People who can make decisions effectively look at the alternatives, get an appropriate amount of information, weigh the positives and negatives, make their choice, and don't look back afterward. An indecisive person seems to be incapable of weighing and balancing the risks and rewards of multiple alternatives. The information at hand is never enough to make a decision, so they send you off to collect more information. Having made a decision, they will second guess themselves - What if I'd done the other thing, maybe things would have turned out better.
I worked for a guy like that. I would make a proposal to improve a process that would result in a better product and reduce cycle times. My boss and I would agree on a set of experiments to prove that the change would work out OK. My experiments would show the desired improvements and point to the things we needed to do to make a smooth transition. My boss would react by asking for more experiments. This would happen until everyone else in the company would gang up on him, or I would get tired and give up. No fun.
I'm also married to someone who is indecisive. When we moved in 1995 to the Detroit area, it was an extremely inflationary housing market. After watching houses go on sale and get snapped up before I had a chance to even see them, I put an offer on the next house that I saw that met our needs and that we could afford. I put an offer on it the same day I saw it. My wife was appalled, but she grudgingly agreed. She proceeded to drive me nuts spending the next year shopping for houses, utterly convinced that a better one or less expensive one would come up for sale. Of course it never did. Which is not even the point. Sometimes things do go wrong, but sh't happens to even the best laid plans.
Sorry, I digress. The second point about intimacy is more about your letter. I'm sure she has feelings. She is afraid to tell you. You may have something to do with this. It is really important that you examine every important conversation that you've had with her to figure out if you have made her feel unsafe about telling you things, such as minimizing her feelings, getting defensive, or trying to fix her issues instead of just hearing and acknowledging them. Or, you might not have done anything wrong. She might have learned it from her family. Whatever. But she is afraid of what the reaction will be if she reveals herself. This happens in joint decision making: if she expresses a preference, she might create conflict. Honeypot has analyzed this one in depth on one or more of her current threads. How will you react? She doesn't know. And that's why she won't say. Because she is afraid of the worst case scenario, whether that is conflict, or apathy, or rejection.
That's what ties these two threads together: an inability to manage her fear of the unknown, and a strong suspicion that whatever she does will be a big mistake.
Instead of addressing the contents of the letter, maybe you need to focus on getting her to tell you why she won't discuss it.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Quote: # fear of making decisions, and # fear of intimacy.
And fear of conflict. How was it handled in her family of origin?
Many women say that they don't even know their own opinions and desires, especially if expressing those things was discouraged in their childhoods. Her mind may go completely blank when you ask her some of your questions. Or she may be afraid. (I found it completely incomprehensible when P would tell me this, but sure enough, it's been described in some of the reading I've done.)
You are not comfortable with so little information. W is not comfortable giving it to you. Any compromise will be uncomfortable for both of you. I do believe it is worthwhile to keep trying for better communication. I don't think W is just being obstinate, though I know it feels like it. I think P sometimes feels sad, guilty, inadequate when she can't answer my questions. Often she feels pressured and afraid when I ask them.
It's not just a girl thing. My H once said to me "I've made all my major life decisions by default.". With him it's more of a lack of confidence or self-esteem or patience that makes him feel like he's unable to gather information or gain skills that would help him make decisions. For instance, he has told me that he feels like I have an unfair advantage in our "fight" over the sex issue because I have the support of this BB and I've read several books on the subject, yet he will not read the books or join the BB himself.
So maybe your W feels like she is protecting her self-esteem along the lines of "If I only try a little then I can only fail a little".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: What if you were to say to her, "I'd like to hear your thoughts about the letter I wrote you." She will stonewall, and then you can mentally say to yourself, Ok it's Tuesday. I will ask her again on Saturday. Then do that and she will stonewall again. You can make a date to ask her again. She'll get the picture and eventually get mad.
At that point, you can say (calmly and kindly): "Wife, all I've ever wanted is an answer from you when I put my heart on the line. From this day forward, I will keep asking in the hopes that you will answer. It is not my wish to make you mad but I'm no longer willing to pretend that I'm ok with the silence."
HP, I read this just before I went home. I liked it a lot and was planning on doing exactly as you suggested, but alas, it was one of those nights. D19 had skipped her afternoon classes and was in bed with what looks like the flu, and W was in town with the other two D’s waiting for band practice to end. When they got home, W was all wound up about getting the house cleaned up for the Pampered Chef party she’s having on Friday. It just wasn’t a good evening to try to talk.
But I really like your idea. I do plan to use it.
To the rest of you who answered, thank you. W does have FOO issues. Women stuck to women’s things like cooking and cleaning and taking care of kids. Her father was mostly absent and her mother was highly critical. W says that nothing she ever did was good enough to please them. So there’s a lot of baggage there. I just feel that after nearly thirty years, thirty years, she should have learned that she can trust me. I may well have done something in the past that made her decide not to talk to me, but in all honesty, I don’t know what it could have been. And even if I did, I’m a different person than I was even a year ago. I’m committed to making this R better.
Wilde, I also know what it's like to be with someone who stonewalls you, but your sitch is extreme.
How about write her a letter, and then sometime when you're alone, either give her the letter and ask her to read it out loud to you, or you read it out loud to her.
Then ask her point blank: "Did you like this letter?"
This amount of "hiding" would make me absolutely nuts!
I do agree with Honey that NOT reacting has worked so far for her. What is her motivation to be any different?
I agree with Lilliperl and HP. Thirty years? I think she knows "this too shall pass...". What is going to be different this time? The only way you will get any answer out of her is to ask her directly. But will it do any good? Who knows, but if asked she might have to answer you. Your W is terribly afraid of intimacy...tough nut to crack.
I’m not trying to hijack this thread, but I have a similar problem. My W and I do talk about most things, but sex is the elephant in the room, impossible to ignore but not really discussed. We have had a few discussions about it, usually it is more me talking than her during these, and occasionally I write her a letter when I am trying to have her understand the seriousness of what we re discussing.
Here are the problems, reading the letter doesn’t equate to discussing it which also doesn’t equate to acting on it. Either she isn’t sincere in wanting to solve the problem, or doesn’t understand the magnitude of it.
I’m getting ready to write another letter, I have a theory that she has hypothyroidism even to the point of getting a thermometer for her to check herself (one way of diagnosing it). I have asked her to call the doctor to discuss the problem. How hard is it to pick up the phone? I’m going to write her a letter explaining how she needs to understand that here is a problem that must be fixed, but how do I encourage, beg, demand some follow up?
Quote: Here are the problems, reading the letter doesn’t equate to discussing it which also doesn’t equate to acting on it. Either she isn’t sincere in wanting to solve the problem, or doesn’t understand the magnitude of it.
I agree that her reading a letter is certainly not the equivalent of, nor a substitute for, discussion.
But Wilde was saying he didn't even get an acknowledgement of the existence of the letter OR of the fact that she had read it. I was addressing how to get her to own up to having been exposed to the contents of the letter. Getting her to discuss it... that's a task for the third millennium, alas.
Quote: I’m getting ready to write another letter, I have a theory that she has hypothyroidism even to the point of getting a thermometer for her to check herself (one way of diagnosing it). I have asked her to call the doctor to discuss the problem. How hard is it to pick up the phone? I’m going to write her a letter explaining how she needs to understand that here is a problem that must be fixed, but how do I encourage, beg, demand some follow up?
It can be very, very hard. I remember my MIL putting off going to the eye dr. when she was having trouble seeing - turns out she has Glaucoma, and has lost sight in one eye - if she had seen a Dr. in the beginning, he could have saved it. She has a hard time going to the Dr. after her sister died of breast cancer about 7 yrs ago, she's afraid they'll find something wrong with her.
I would try pointing out how important she is to her family, to you, and how thyroid problems can affect her in many ways. I wouldn't talk about how it can affect her SD, just talk about how you care about her, and are concerned for her health.
You can't make her pick up the phone, and it may feel to her like you're trying to pin the blame on her in some way. Maybe go back and read some of the threads with some of the HDWs trying to get their Hs to get their T levels tested. They probably have better advice than I do. I think you have to be very careful that you don't come off sounding controlling.
I have a suggestion. It probably won't make a lot of sense, but have a look at it and think about it. See if you can use it.
Either in a letter or conversation, say something along these lines.
........ On the subject of sex.
I am crushed that I have hurt you so badly that you don't feel you can make love to me.
The problem, is that I don't know what it is I have done. If I don't know what I have done, I can't fix it. If you will tell me what I have done to offend you so much that you don't want to have sex with me, I promise I will do my best to address the problem, no matter what it is. ........
If she says it isn't your problem, then you can tell her that it is becoming a serious issue with you, and that you want to work on it before you end up a watery pile of resentment and the marriage is affected.
If she says it is your problem, then you can work on it, and even enlist her help. Fix it, then tell her when you are done. Find out if she agrees.
Don't allow for a third issue. Especially a claimed difference in drives. For now, it is either your problem or hers, no gray.
You can addresses the issues as a couple eventually, but someone has to take responsibility for the sex initially. Someone has to move first.
The above scenario is similar to what happened in our situation.
Please let me know what you think.
Everyone other than socal, please ignore this advice.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
