Quote: MrsNOP - whether my wife wants the power, has ill intentions with the power, or is ignorant of her power...in the end no matter how, she's got the power. My power lies in my ability to leave, to cope, to persuade, to work toward a solution etc.
My concern is that if the problem continues to be couched in terms of power, the ability to pursue and reach a solution is going to be severely hampered, if not impossible.
Are some of our spouses unmitigated turds who are selfishly, callously choosing to exercise control over us?
Yeah. Probably so.
If you (rhetorical you, not you specifically) are married to said unmitigated turd, then perhaps you need to stop concerning yourself with sexual frequency and see what you can do to rescue the rest of your life from the tyrant to whom you are married.
In my circumstance, our sexual relationship was an accurate reflection of our relationship.
Quote: I try and use the concept of being hungry. I'm starving and my wife has just grilled a steak with all the trimming and to top it off she has banana pudding (mmm getting hungry). But she's not hungry, in fact she's not sure if she’ll ever be hungry and will not allow me to have any until she's hungry. She's got the power. My choice is to make a sandwich, go out and get McDonalds, stay hungry.
I hope this explains what I’m trying to say about power in our relationship.
But our relationships aren't that clear cut, are they? Here's what I've read on various boards over the years and inserting that info into your "my wife's got steak" analogy:
1. You made fun of her cooking skills or let her know that her steak-making skills were lacking in some way.
2. You got up from the table a few times in the past when she had her steak served piping hot.
3. You helped yourself to your neighbor's steak and your wife knows or suspects.
4. You yelled at her, withdrew from her or spent a grand total of 5 minutes during the day actually conversing with her - now where the hell is your steak?
5. Your dentures didn't work well a couple of times and you couldn't eat her steak - she was left with the impression that it was all her fault and that her steak was too tough.
6. She had her steak forcibly taken in the past.
7. She was reared to believe that steak is wrong or dirty.
8. She doesn't know jack-squat about steak, either preparation or eating, and goes to extremes to disguise her ignorance.
9. Her steak is kinda lumpy, got gristle sticking out and looks nothing like that cookbook you've got with pics of sizzling steaks.
10. She's spotted a sweater she likes in the mall the other day and told you about it, but for her birthday you get her a set of steak knives, another case of steak sauce, and a recipe book entitled "The Joy of Steak".
So, how productive is it to ignore the dynamics that often go into the situation and settle it squarely on our spouse's head as "least interested, got control"?
Having a lower sex drive does not explain why a spouse acts unconcerned and unloving toward you. Having a lower sex drive doesn't explain why your spouse refuses to actively, continuously work toward a solution with you. Having a lower sex drive does not explain the inability to arrive at a solution.
By concentrating only on your spouse's sex drive, we miss the bigger picture of the f*cked up relationship and relational dynamics. IMO.
Wow - that was the best post I have seen on this particular issue. Thank you. Thank you. I stand convicted on at least two that I know of and probably others as well -
8. She doesn't know jack-squat about steak, either preparation or eating, and goes to extremes to disguise her ignorance. ___________________________________________________________
My H had exactly two lovers of short duration before we met - other relationships were of the "Everything but" variety. I may not/have not been as sensitive to this as I could be. Perhaps I haven't known how to navigate the male/female aspect of this - I suspect that know a great deal more about sex than he does or at least have a better comfort level with different sexual acts but I am concerned with emasculating him.
You also said: ___________________________________________________________10. She's spotted a sweater she likes in the mall the other day and told you about it, but for her birthday you get her a set of steak knives, another case of steak sauce, and a recipe book entitled "The Joy of Steak". ___________________________________________________________
I am guilty, guilty, guilty and have been called on this by H in the past. In the beginning of our R - H bought a video tape series about sex to help us "learn" more about it - we watched it in a semi embarrassed silence, discussed in minimally and that was H's last foray into "improving" our SL. I have bought a myriad of books, magazines etc... H sees me reading them even if I don't buy them for "him" he gets the message.
I am not trying to hijack - I am simply illustrating how these points play out in RL. Mrs. Nop if you want to respond on my thread "The Long Way Home" feel free. It is time for me to post the current deal anyway. I could use some help.
Quote: Are some of our spouses unmitigated turds who are selfishly, callously choosing to exercise control over us?
Okay, I'm coming out of lurk-mode to weigh in on the "control" issue. I was talking to my second youngest sister the other day. She is the LD in her relationship. I spoke with her more frankly about my sich than I have in the past. I asked her if she had ever been the HD in an relationship. Her reply was "No. Sex has always been my control issue.".
Now, my sister is a nice person who loves me, has never read any books like SSM, doesn't feel like the difference in sex drive in her marriage is a problem and has nothing to gain/lose by simply expressing her feelings on the matter honestly to me. So, I guess I'm thinking that it's not as simple as either (A)your spouse is completely selfish and callous and using sex for control or (B) your spouse is as helpless in the face of your drive differences as you. Like my sister, your spouse may acknowledge on some level that they use sex for "control" but may simply think that this is an acceptable or not so bad a way to function in a marriage.
I always wondered why this sister who is quite demanding and not any more conventionally attractive than me always had slavishly devoted boyfriends and now husband. The interesting thing is she was always the one to end the relationship with her boyfriends because she became repulsed by the slavish devotion. When I asked her what her reaction would have been if one of these boyfriends had taken a strong stand and said "F*ck this, I'm not putting up with this" and left her, she said she would have been kind of attracted again but it would have just been due to competition not HD.
She also said that if her H directly indicated that frequency was an issue, she would work on it because she loves him and is committed to the relationship and their 3 children. I feel like it's a good thing that I talked to her about this issue because I told her that maybe she ought to take her H's joking comments about their sex life( She said he did things like quoting sexual frequency statistics from Men's Health magazine to her)more seriously and stop using the excuse that they still have a kid in bed with them.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Having a lower sex drive does not explain why a spouse acts unconcerned and unloving toward you. Having a lower sex drive doesn't explain why your spouse refuses to actively, continuously work toward a solution with you. Having a lower sex drive does not explain the inability to arrive at a solution.
Because the LD is LD there is little motivation for them to DO something about it...why should they...it's not THEIR problem that their spouse isn't getting enough physical affection/attention. The HD spouse knows/feels this lack even if everything else in the relationship is wonderful (though how can it be if there is a sense of lacking on one partners side?) the HD spouse is obviously more motivated to DO something to change the sexual dynamic but is left with few choices (1. accept a ssm 2. become LD yourself 3. Leave the m) unless/until the LD spouse DECIDES they'd like to take an active role in the situation.
Quote: Because the LD is LD there is little motivation for them to DO something about it...why should they...it's not THEIR problem that their spouse isn't getting enough physical affection/attention.
And my point is that there is something askew MORE than sex drive if the spouse is unmotivated and dismissive of your needs.
I wasn't hungry everytime I fed my child. My motivation to *care* for my child had nothing whatsoever to do with my own hunger or needs. I purchase things at the grocery store that I have no interest in, I have cooked things I don't like, I have hosted gaggles of kids when it filled no social need of mine. I have given medicine to pets when i wasn't sick, I have ferried elderly neighbors around on errands when I had no place I needed to go.
So, if I didn't have the same motivation or the same level of motivation - why was I motivated to do any of the above?
Something more than having the identical motivation was at work.
Quote:
The HD spouse knows/feels this lack even if everything else in the relationship is wonderful (though how can it be if there is a sense of lacking on one partners side?) the HD spouse is obviously more motivated to DO something to change the sexual dynamic but is left with few choices (1. accept a ssm 2. become LD yourself 3. Leave the m) unless/until the LD spouse DECIDES they'd like to take an active role in the situation.
Or actively, consistantly pursue solutions making every effort to convey to your spouse the high degree of importance involved. That means pushing through the anger and/or depression you feel and accepting the likely possibility that continuing to bring up the issue is going to make things unpleasant for a time. It doesn't mean tentively bringing it up, everyone blowing up in anger, squelching it all back down again for a few weeks/months while it leaks out in a myriad of ways into the marriage, and then exploding in anger or resentment again a few weeks/months down the road.
It means letting the spouse know that this issue is not going to go away. That you want and need them to work with you on it. Their continued refusal to even acknowledge that the *marriage* has a problem much less a lackluster attempt to work at it will destroy the relationship.
Done with firmness. With gentleness. Without anger and resentment (as much as humanly possible). But with steely resolve.
Even if it is saying "Okay, I have the problem. But that problem is expressing itself in our relationship. I have set up an appointment with a counselor (or pastor or grandma or other person/couple that you know has a good grasp on marriage) and I am asking you to help me work on my problem."
Guilty as well, on at least half of these counts. Great post MrsNOP. It is sometimes so hard to see your own contributions and so easy to blame your spouse for everything. Sometimes it is so hard to see the forest through the trees!
--GGB, learning that eating crow can make any steak tasty
MrsNOP – thanks! I love how you adapted my silly steak analogy. -------------- "My concern is that if the problem continues to be couched in terms of power, the ability to pursue and reach a solution is going to be severely hampered, if not impossible"
I don’t really mean power in a bad way, just that the fact is unless I force myself on her (which will never happen) she holds the power I can not have sex with her unless she agrees. I don’t see it as a hurdle other than she must decide she’s willing to work on this problem. That’s the real power issue, she knows the issues and the problems and has not been willing to take action lasting more than a month. ----------------- From the list the following seem to apply to our relationship.
7. She was reared to believe that steak is wrong or dirty. 8. She doesn't know jack-squat about steak, either preparation or eating, and goes to extremes to disguise her ignorance.
------------------ "So, how productive is it to ignore the dynamics that often go into the situation and settle it squarely on our spouse's head as "least interested, got control"?"
I don’t think it’s her fault…just that I feel like I’ve hit the wall on the ways to drive the solution. I can not do it with out her participation.
------------------
"By concentrating only on your spouse's sex drive, we miss the bigger picture of the f*cked up relationship and relational dynamics. IMO."
You right, but the LM issue seems to have driven all our other issues. This started back when we got married (after the honeymoon night it was 9 months before we LM. Any time I examined an issue between us it leads back to this. I, of course, with my frustration and at some points anger have created many of the issues…
I get the sense that to her if you don’t like the way something is, you just deal with it. With me if I don’t like the way something is I want to change it. -------------------
GEL
"Mind if I ask what field you work in for a living? Our C has noticed a bit of a personality trait with men in my H's field of work."
No problem, I’m an Executive with an international entertainment company.
======= [[Or actively, consistently pursue solutions making every effort to convey to your spouse the high degree of importance involved. That means pushing through the anger and/or depression you feel and accepting the likely possibility that continuing to bring up the issue is going to make things unpleasant for a time. It doesn't mean tentively bringing it up, everyone blowing up in anger, squelching it all back down again for a few weeks/months while it leaks out in a myriad of ways into the marriage, and then exploding in anger or resentment again a few weeks/months down the road.]]
Wow that pretty much nailed it for me...that vicious cycle is what we’ve gone through for years. Although we don’t really blow up anymore. It’s actually the thing I hate the most, the hopelessness of the cycle you know isn’t going to change but you do just in case this time it does. Einstein’s line about insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results comes to mind.
====== [[It means letting the spouse know that this issue is not going to go away. That you want and need them to work with you on it. Their continued refusal to even acknowledge that the *marriage* has a problem much less a lackluster attempt to work at it will destroy the relationship. Done with firmness. With gentleness. Without anger and resentment (as much as humanly possible). But with steely resolve. Even if it is saying "Okay, I have the problem. But that problem is expressing itself in our relationship. I have set up an appointment with a counselor (or pastor or grandma or other person/couple that you know has a good grasp on marriage) and I am asking you to help me work on my problem."]]
I’m going to re-read this one a few times…I’ve started this discussion with her so many times that I am honestly at a loss on how to do it with out being negative, angry and resentful.
The Einstein line made me think of another line that seems uncomfortably applicable.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison
