OG_Lou, no other woman is involved, and my wife *is* interested in working on the relationship, just not the sexual relationship.
I think it's possible to be HD without "getting any". And extremely frustrating. I spend a lot of my life feeling like I'm gonna explode. If there were a morally neutral way to have sex that didn't endanger our relationship or require me to be dishonest, I'd be on it in a minute.
Honestly, I've slipped up a few times, I've had two affairs and once went to a prostitute. This isn't easy for me at all.
I hate to wash dishes. Hate it. Hate to touch the water, stick my hands in dishsoap, hate to dry them, put them away and organize them. But I am an adult. I decided to be a homemaker. Washings dishes is part of the deal. I could concentrate on the yucky slimy water, and the time I soaked the dishes for an hour and come back and stuck my hand in to squeeze out the dishrag that turned out to be a dead mouse. Or I can say, hmmm, I want this marriage, he hates dirty dishes, I hate the mess more than I hate washing them. I could not wash them, hire someone to wash them, or do it with the most loving and grateful heart for someone that I love. Again if my husband is hungry, I cannot see myself sitting there looking through some cookbooks at stuff I know he would like to eat and say...Yeah, this stuff looks good to me too. But yanno, I don't really care if you are hungry. I am not hungry, so go somewhere else to eat. You go to work every day, even when you don't want to...don't feel like it. Maybe you decide you want to just lay around and surf all day. In your soul of souls you are a surfer...I say, too late....you made your choice. Be glad you have a job and someone to share your life with. So, my question to you is, and maybe more to her, is that you love this person, you committed to this person, and love is an ACTION not a feeling so why not be giving and loving? How would you not want to give pleasure to someone you love? She seems to like cuddling with you, sharing affection. Is she telling you that only her feelings count in this matter?
Arguing with reality is like trying to teach a cat to bark—hopeless. (Byron Katie)
Quote: I hate to wash dishes. Hate it. Hate to touch the water, stick my hands in dishsoap, hate to dry them, put them away and organize them. But I am an adult.
Yeah. But remember which half of the marriage you are talking to. I hate living without sex, but if that's what I have to do, at least for now, to keep this marriage going, then I'm gonna do it. I'm an adult too, and right now, keeping the pressure off seems to be the loving thing to do.
Quote: But yanno, I don't really care if you are hungry. I am not hungry, so go somewhere else to eat.
She doesn't say that last sentence ;->
Quote: How would you not want to give pleasure to someone you love? She seems to like cuddling with you, sharing affection. Is she telling you that only her feelings count in this matter?
Yes, she pretty much is.
But she's also dealing with a new identity, a change in perspective that is about two weeks old. And she's also very much enjoying not being under so much deadening pressure.
There may be a time that I start putting on gentle pressure again. I'm pretty certain that time is not now. Frankly, right now we're both being very caring and concerned about the other, and doing a lot of deep sharing about our feelings. I can at least tell her about my struggles with sexuality, and she can care about it. We haven't been on the same side of this issue before. I've spent a lot of time trying to put gentle pressure on her and not let the subject drop, and it wasn't working.
Yes, I would like her to come to the conclusion that she should have sex with me. But I don't think the dishwater analogy is going to help her...
Oh, I thought you when you said she was clearly closed to the possibility of a sex now or in the future, she was dismissing your needs. If she is open to talking, listening. loving, that is different. Never is a long time.
I am not sure I understand how having sex about every leap year is seen as pressure by her? Was this always her stance?
I understand that this is hard for you. I understand ( trust me, I do) that it may be a confusing time for her. When you say "coming out" do you mean to you...or to herself?
And I understand lots of couples live happily in relationships without sex.
I was not trying to sound that harsh. I guess the whole...not now or ever thing sounded so dismissive.
Arguing with reality is like trying to teach a cat to bark—hopeless. (Byron Katie)
Quote: Oh, I thought you when you said she was clearly closed to the possibility of a sex now or in the future, she was dismissing your needs. If she is open to talking, listening. loving, that is different. Never is a long time.
Well, she was saying never, and wanting me to agree to it. We finally settled on this: Right now, she feels like never. That may change. Right now, I'm giving her space.
We also found a way to make room for me to be aroused by her. If I'm aroused, she says she finds it flattering, as long as I don't insist on her having sex with me.
Quote: I am not sure I understand how having sex about every leap year is seen as pressure by her? Was this always her stance?
Her classic line was, "I know you're not pressuring me to have sex, but I can tell that you really, really want it, I can feel that every day, and that's pressure." Now at least she's learning to live with me really wanting it, and we're caring about each other's needs, if not meeting them.
Quote: I understand that this is hard for you. I understand ( trust me, I do) that it may be a confusing time for her. When you say "coming out" do you mean to you...or to herself?
She came out to herself 10 days earlier - I had been in Australia at the time, so she had 10 days to adjust, think, write, masturbate, and consider how to break the news to me.
Quote: And I understand lots of couples live happily in relationships without sex.
The "without sex" part won't be the part that makes me happy. But she's been a witness to my life for 28 years, my wife for 22, the mother of our three children, she understands me in a way nobody else can. I don't cut off my head when I have a headache.
Quote: I was not trying to sound that harsh. I guess the whole...not now or ever thing sounded so dismissive.
Well...it is dismissive. And that's why I didn't agree to a forever clause. For now, I think it's good to give her space.
You weren't harsh, you were expressing strong feelings. And maybe saying the same thing I was saying 8 months ago. Maybe I'll say it again in a year ;->
Though the issue is old, W's revelation is fresh. Understand that her thoughts will evolve and be prepared that they may go in a direction you don't like. As her brain settles around this, I wouldn't be surprised if she realizes that she doesn't want to live without sex either.
Quote: Though the issue is old, W's revelation is fresh. Understand that her thoughts will evolve and be prepared that they may go in a direction you don't like. As her brain settles around this, I wouldn't be surprised if she realizes that she doesn't want to live without sex either.
Yes, it could happen. But as long as it hasn't happened yet, I'm not going to throw out what we have now because of fears of what might happen in the future.
Quote: How old are the kids?
19, 17, and 7. But I'm not staying in the marriage because of the kids, and neither is she.
I wish you all the best. In the end, this isn't really about sex. Still, it might help you to connect over your shared attraction to women. And even if W isn't immediately receptive, it might help for you to learn to make love like a woman. Ask W to talk about what she imagines it (your whole R, not just sex) would be like if you were a woman (mind you, I only advocate hypothetical sex changes). That might give you some clues about what you can do to better satisfy her.
Quote: I wish you all the best. In the end, this isn't really about sex.
Can you say more about this? It seems to have something to do with identity too, but I'm pretty dense here. Is there something in particular I should read?
Your nickname implies that you may also be a lesbian - are you in lesbian relationship? are you in a relationship with a male? I'm just asking to what extent you've been on the other side of this - and if it's too personal, just don't answer.
Quote: Still, it might help you to connect over your shared attraction to women.
We've done that some...
Quote: And even if W isn't immediately receptive, it might help for you to learn to make love like a woman. Ask W to talk about what she imagines it (your whole R, not just sex) would be like if you were a woman (mind you, I only advocate hypothetical sex changes). That might give you some clues about what you can do to better satisfy her.
Can you say more? If you were my wife, and I were to ask you this question, what would you say? It's only been 10 days for us, and I'm not sure that I can ask her this question right now (she's wanting me to back off on the "will we ever have sex again" question and let her work on some things with her therapist first).
I am a lesbian from the get go and I have never been in an R with a man. I know many women who have had a slower awakening, but I haven't been there myself. I'm over in Newcomers, pining away for my partner. I come over to the SSM forum to visit my buddy Ron and am easily distracted by the other discussions here.
Quote: It seems to have something to do with identity too, but I'm pretty dense here. Is there something in particular I should read?
Gosh, maybe, but I can't think what off the top of my head. All I can tell you, to try to get an inkling of what W is going through, is to imagine what it would be like if you were gay. It may be hard for you to imagine being attracted to men, but suppose you could wrap your brain around that. Then what? What could you imagine your life being like (even without the complication of a current R)? What would daily life be like if you dated or lived with a man?
I suspect that your brain has some resistance to following these lines of thought. They are very foreign and scary. I'm sure that's a lot of what W is going through. She has a lot of soul searching to do.
Quote: Can you say more? If you were my wife, and I were to ask you this question, what would you say? It's only been 10 days for us, and I'm not sure that I can ask her this question right now (she's wanting me to back off on the "will we ever have sex again" question and let her work on some things with her therapist first).
Yeah, don't rush with that one, but keep it in your mind. Maybe she wishes that you would listen like a woman. Maybe she loves you because you do. Maybe she'd like it better if you were smoother and softer. I don't know. You can't be a woman, but you can be willing to be more like a woman in ways that W would appreciate. If that's the case, then find a non-pressuring way to let her know that. Start by focusing on the non-sex aspects.
I'm hoping that y'all are able to maintain a sense of humor throughout. "Oh honey, that's okay. I'll just get a sex change and everything will be fine. Then we can go to the women's music festivals together and everything."
BTW, does W know about your affairs? And why is nobody willing to stay together for the kids?
