I just added up the 28 times I moved (6X in 5th grade) before I besame an adult. Got married and moved 4 times. I built the house I am living in 1974 so it was not in my genes to continue to move.
JJ, avoiding the H at this late hour or just frustrated like me?
I'm right there with you, Lou. I moved 26 times before I was in high school.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
I'd say this ability to adapt goes along more with a person's outlook on life (generally optimistic, easy-going, always willing to throw in yet another solution to any given problem...) more so than a person's sexual appetite (HD/LD state).
I moved a lot when I was a kid, too. This was due to my mother's marriages and divorces instead of being in the armed forces (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA).
Atlanta Dave and the NOPs can chime in when I say this, but I think you will find that an SSM is not so much about HD/LD as it is about a slew of other things. It just appears that way on the surface. However, the 'just do it' approach is a good method for jump-starting the recovery phase.
Anyway, this whole personal examination thing is extremely important and very enlightening. If you haven't done it, I'd encourage you to do so. You will find that you have preferences/opinions, likes/dislikes you NEVER KNEW you had simply because you never gave it any thought. Lil is EXACTLY right in that, until you do this, you will tolerate behavior from people that you should never, ever take from anyone simply because you know how to adapt so well.
For instance, I discovered that I do in fact like sex very much. I thought I didn't. But I do. So then I had to find out what it was I didn't like that was getting in the way of me enjoying sex... this did a number of things for me.
1. I no longer responded to my H out of guilt that I somehow wasn't built correctly; this forced him to change his tactics.
2. My self-esteem and sexual-esteem grew by leaps and bounds; this forced him to confront his own insecurities. (Not because I made him do that, but because I was no longer tolerant of him trying to make his issues my issues.)
3. I discovered that my likes and dislikes are as valid as anyone else's... but until you know what they are, it makes it darn tough to state them.
4. When I knew what my likes and dislikes were, I could CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSE my actions and reactions to any given situation because I had a basic respect for self. This, more than anything, helps in the 'setting boundaries' department. Meaning, how can you possibly ask someone to respect you when most of your responses through the day are "I don't really care... I don't really have a preference... it doesn't really matter to me..."
Bu!!shiit!! It MATTERS!! We just don't KNOW that it matters because we haven't taken the time to figure it out... because we never HAD TIME to figure it out... we were always moving, always adapting at an age when we really didn't have any choice.
But now we do have choices, and now it is time to explore personal preferences!!!!!...
I cannot believe all the things I used to do just because... that's what I always did. I discovered that I was in fact more Democrat than Republican (though I don't vote party lines). I NEVER KNEW THAT about me. I thought I was Republican because 'that's what the family does...'
I f_ckin' HATE brussel sprouts, and I don't give a FIG how good they are for me. I will never eat one again. Ever.
I like going to the movies by myself. I like going with other people, too. But I enjoy going by myself if there is a movie I want to see and no one else does.
I like to listen to instrumental music when I have sex. I always sleep better when it's raining. I hate American Domestic Beer, but it will do in a pinch. I prefer the TP going over the top, but I could give a hang less if someone didn't put the roll on 'correctly.' This is not an issue in my life (though it really used to be).
My mother used to tell me, "honey, we don't clean a house because it is dirty. We clean the house to keep it from getting dirty."
That's the rule I lived by. Incessant cleaning as I grew up. White glove test, the whole 9 yards. Yes. I will admit publically now... I was an obsessive cleaner. I could ruin my family's entire day if the pillows weren't straight.
Til I really gave it some thought. I clean when I feel something needs cleaned. I'm still obsessive about the kitchen. The rest... I got over. Not out of revolt, just simply because I changed how **I** do things because that is what **I** prefer.
I could go on and on and on... because I now KNOW. These things may seem trivial, I'll give you that. But it is 100% genuine ME... not what I picked up along the way.
It makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD. If you do nothing else in your marriage, DO THIS.
Beautiful post. It was my lack of understanding of myself and my own issues that led to my disastrous first M. It is my fledgling acceptance of myself and my own preferences that has led me to state my preferences in this M. I really do agree that HD/LD really doesn't have that much to do with it. It isn't a descriptor of who a person is fundamentally - merely a descriptor of where they are in THAT relationship at THAT point in time. The presence of frequent desire has come and gone in my life as a result of many things. The fact that it is as constant as it is now is because I have finally learned to tune in to that part of myself despite life issues, because I love and respect my H and because I enjoy sex. The fact that my H feels differently or handles his sexuality differently is difficult for me. Meeting somewhere in the middle would be wonderful. Getting to the point where we are each able to express our sexual selves comfortably would be even better.
Great post, Corri. I'm a charter member of the "I don't really have a preference" club. I'm working on that one.
Quote: Atlanta Dave and the NOPs can chime in when I say this, but I think you will find that an SSM is not so much about HD/LD as it is about a slew of other things. It just appears that way on the surface. However, the 'just do it' approach is a good method for jump-starting the recovery phase.
I couldn't support this assertion more. I am finding that I *do* have sex drive. To the point of some distraction during the day. More so than in my youth. Who knew?
I see a danger in thinking that there is a single solution. Or attempting to understand it by assigning possible trauma: childhood abuse, rape, emotional illness, physiological abnormalities, bad parenting. I think these do exist, but they may be more the exception than the rule. I know that NOP kept thinking that there must be some traumatic something from my past that would explain it. And ultimately all it was, was our broken relationship. The broken intimacy. The barriers we had erected to protect ourselves from each other. The inability to communicate and to hear what the other was saying. Bad interaction habits and poor behaviors that had become encrusted and solidified.
The "just do it" forces intimacy and the resultant confrontation when partners aren't willing to be. When a marriage has been sexually stilted long enough, ignoring it and hoping that it will get better isn't going to get good results. It takes loving confrontation on an ongoing basis. There is no one conversational breakthrough from which the problem is solved. There is no one incredible (or not so incredible) lovemaking session that will then issue in a new era of sexual satisfaction.
I cannot stress enough that it is a process. And Cemar, I am discovering that a LD wife can become higher drive. But someone must speak up. When NOP started addressing the problem, the underlying theme was "I cannot go on this way." That's what I heard. And as we progressed some I then said "I cannot go on this way". So, we both made some unforeseen and unexpected adjustments.
If I had been asked 5 years ago why I was LD, I don't think I would have been able to give a true answer. I would have blamed it on being physically disfunctional in some way. I would have recognized that my *unwillingness* was a function of my unhappiness in our relationship, but I blamed myself for being lacking in some way for not having desire.
But you don't have to know *before* you start the process. Starting the process will force you and your spouse to eventually confront and deal with the issues.
I have to respond to this one. Or really, I have a question.
Our sexual histories are posted elsewhere, but I’ll give you the Cliff’s Notes here just to be sure we’re on the same page. W had one serious BF in high school. They dated for two years and although they never had IC, she did give him HJ’s and he did oral on her. This all came about through pressure from him. He wanted more, but she wouldn’t. My story is actually very similar. I had one serious GF. We were quite sexually active, and she was the aggressor at each level. We went beyond kissing when she took my hand and put it on her boob. The next step was when she stuck her hand between my legs while we were at a movie. Once she got us there, we f*cked like bunnies two or three times a day.
That brings me to W. We met in college. We were both fairly religious, both felt guilty about our earlier sexual liaisons, and both had committed to remaining celibate until we got married. Once we got M, I was ready for some sex, but W wouldn’t/couldn’t. I won’t rehash everything here, but I was very gentle and understanding, but nothing we tried ever worked. W was just repulsed by the whole thing. She said that had she known that she was this way, she never would have married. Right from the beginning, our SL was in the dumper. After a few abortive attempts during the first few months of marriage, it rapidly went to the once a month pattern where I would go down on her and then she would give me a not too enthusiastic HJ. It was 12 years before we ever had IC – she was trying to get PG. And it worked the first month. After that, it was back to the pattern.
A couple of years after that, we separated, mostly over sex, got into C, and got back together. We were back into the old pattern with the only exception being that instead of the HJ, I got laid about twice a year. It was duty sex, but it was sex. During our several years in C, I found out that she hates men and I learned about the alleged abuse by her brother, but she still refused to discuss sex. Being the smart guy that I am, I took what I had and crafted a scenario wherein W grew up in a family where women are second class citizens and developed a dislike for men. Her brother made sexual advances, and she mentally and emotionally over-reacted. Then BF kept pushing her for sex. That reinforced her feelings about men and sex, and threw guilt into the mix when she at least partially gave in.
This attitude toward sex certainly predated me, and since she refused to even discuss it, I was thinking trauma. It was obviously causing her some level of emotional pain as evidenced by the comment about never marrying. Yet it was so serious that she wouldn’t do anything about it, wouldn’t talk to me about it, and in the face of seeing her 14-year marriage collapse, wouldn’t even talk to the C about it. It had to be trauma.
But then yesterday Honeypot mentioned immaturity. And today, you said, “bad interaction habits and poor behaviors that had become encrusted and solidified”. You said, “barriers we had erected to protect ourselves”. Could it really be that simple? Could it be barriers that she erected to protect herself from her brother and her horny BF and has never allowed herself to break down? That would certainly fit with my contention that there is a passionate, sensuous W in there somewhere.
I really don’t know what I’m asking here, but I feel like I’m on the cusp of discovering something. Does this rambling inspire you to offer anything more?
Great post, Corri! I think that knowing yourself is the key to making the most out of life, not just sex. You should be proud of yourself for doing the work to find out what you like and standing up for it.
On the childhood adaptability/HD connection, I didn't move much but my parents had an unstable M. I learned early on that I couldn't count on anything that my Dad promised and the money was too tight to expect much of anything. I remember as a 7yo wanting to get M and have a bunch of kids in a happy home.
I was sexually abused by a step-father and my brother as a kid. I was VERY religious as a kid, had the whole sexual guilt thing going, was pretty sure I was going to burn in hell, etc., etc. From the revolving door of marriages my mother had, to abusive BFs in high school and college... I can say that men were not real high on my 'like' list. As a matter of fact, they were probably rated #1 or #2 on my SHIIT List.
I thought I hated sex, too. I thought I was built cheap. I thought there was something wrong with me. I don't know that I was ever as fridgid as your W, but I can certainly understand right where she is mentally.
YOU are not her enemy. SEX is not her enemy. Her being STUCk in her old beliefs, her old ways, her misconceptions, her anger... those things are her enemies... she just doesn't know it.
It takes a lot to get over those things. I didn't want to lose my marriage. The fear of that was greater than my fear of self-confrontation, men and sex. I had to do it, and it was a B!TCH.
But lo and behold, I found out that:
1) I do NOT hate men in general. I hate azzholes. They can be men or women.
2) I do NOT hate sex. I hate duty sex. So I stopped having duty sex. I had to participate in the whole act to stop it, which meant I had to figure out what I sexually liked. Wow, what an eye opener!!
3) I found out through my self discovery that many of the preferences and feelings I had were NOT mine, but belonged to the church, my family, etc., etc., and I didn't agree with a lot of that. Who knew?
4) I found out that repressing and denying myself for so long contributed to my lack of sex-esteem.
Your wife is not broken. She choses to remain STUCK. Have you considered one of those Marriage Encounter Weekends some people have talked about on here? You need help to get her to a point where she is willing to self-confront. I can't tell you how terrifying it is. I think Liliperl was the one who compared it to like, fear of spiders and how people get over phobias.
I think even HD identified people have to ask themselves about their sexual preferences. They don't have to ask themselves the question "Do I like sex?" because they know the answer. They do need to ask themselves the question "How much do I like sex?" over and over again if necessary. For instance, I now know that I like sex better than eating cookies but less than meeting my responsibilities towards my children. I also know that I'm going to have to get a little more specific than this in order to make progress.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
