Thanks a lot for the concrete ideas. I have felt for a long time that we haven't allowed ourselves any chance to be 'man' and 'woman' - whoever is at fault. And yes, I definately feel I mother him too much, and I'm tired of it.
More later...gotta go get some 'real' food in my sugar filled bunch (last of the b'day parties for a while yeah!!!)
Quote: This has become an ingrained habit over the years, one that I've resented for a long time, but done to keep the peace, so I do think it's about time that I put my foot down on it. (and it sounds really silly as I'm typing this out )
But H is very good at pushing my buttons, and gives me the whole puppy dog 'I don't feel loved' cr*p, and I find myself in a p/a sitch again, and mad at myself. I know I'm entitled to that anger, but it is my own damn fault for going against my integrity (and at the same time, feels ridiculous for making such a big deal over making lunch).
FF, I wince when I read those words that I've boldfaced... it's painful to see you discounting yourself. You said "I know I'm entitled to my anger" then cancel it out with "it's my own damn fault..." You have a LOT on your plate and you're handling it extremely well! I think one of the most important things you can do internally, regardless of what you decide to to externally, is to give yourself unconditional support.
Sometimes something that works for parents is to picture your child-- in this case, a daughter-- grown up and in your situation. If you were watching HER go through what you are going through, wouldn't you have unlimited love, compassion, and support for her? See if you can see yourself the same way.
As for waiting on him, maybe cutting out ALL meal preparation is too much to take on at this point and, as IHJ points out, will just muddy the waters. Maybe you decide that after dinner, when you're settled watching tv, from then until bedtime you're off duty, or some other version of the strike that you feel okay about.
You might also explore exactly why it feels "ridiculous." I jumped to the conclusion that you were discounting yourself, but maybe the feeling that it is ridiculous is accurate-- that he won't get the point after all, and you're just making things more complicated. Feel around and see if you can find an option that doesn't feel ridiculous.
Our C quotes Schnarch as saying that marriage is the perfect "people-making machine" meaning that in that crucible all of your buttons won't just get pushed, they'll get hammered... Your H is like an opponent in a martial arts contest, and he's trying to throw you off balance constantly. Your task is to stay centered and grounded no matter what he throws at you. Find a calm, clear place inside yourself where you can "go" mentally and refocus (FOCUSED flutist! ) when he tries to upset you.
Here's a good musical metaphor. I take guitar lessons, and the other day in class, I suggested to my teacher that two of the songs in our text might sound cool played together. So he played one, and I tried to play the other along with him, but hearing him play so distracted me that I kept losing my place.
Surely as a flutist, you play in ensembles from time to time. How do you FOCUS on your part, while still listening to the group play? If you can identify the technique you use to do this successfully, namely to hang on to your part, I'll bet you can use that same method or go to that same mental place when your H starts blaring loud tantrum music (or soft whiny music) that threatens to distract you from YOUR OWN song.
Yes, I'm dealing with a lot - and a lot of it has to do with me, and how I'm handling things. Like I said to my C tonight, I would feel like a failure if we do D, because I will feel like there must have been something I could have done somewhere down the line...I'm trying to deal with these feelings as much as with H's, um, whatever.
What I was mad at was the fact that I had made a decision not to make food for H if it 'put me out', meaning after the 'resteraunt' was closed, or if it meant losing that all important extra half hour or so of sleep in the morning. I hadn't explained why I wasn't doing it, just when he asked, I said no, I don't feel like it (and I sometimes have to say this two or three times) I was mad that morning that I did it, even though I didn't want to. I know, this isn't easy. I'm stretched to my limit right now without any of this extra cr*p, and getting annoyed with in-laws when they come to watch the kids, etc, and I was trying to listen to my anger and figure out exactly where it came from.
You know, C sometimes apologizes to me (!) in that he's not sure how much help he is, he sees me as strong, and isn't really able to give too much advice about H without knowing him better, but I realized tonight what it was that has helped the most - and it was just what you mentioned, about him reaffirming to me about it being perfectly normal for me to be upset, or to make mistakes, as he said - hey, you're the one trying to do something about it - not to mention all the 'extra' intelligent convos that remind me that I am an intellegent, creative, thinking being. I suppose it is true that I've spent so many years listening to how inept I am, I've started to believe it, in spite of what most of my friends would say (I bet you can imagine how many times I've thought to myself - 'if they only knew what I was 'really' like...'
Quote: Surely as a flutist, you play in ensembles from time to time. How do you FOCUS on your part, while still listening to the group play? If you can identify the technique you use to do this successfully, namely to hang on to your part, I'll bet you can use that same method or go to that same mental place when your H starts blaring loud tantrum music (or soft whiny music) that threatens to distract you from YOUR OWN song.
Far, far, far too rarely now...actually, outside of teaching, I've not touched my flute much at all this past year - and that is at least as bad as the lack of S - probably worse. I can deal with celibacy if I'm playing - especially chamber music.
But - to your question. I'm not sure I could explain that technique to you, as it's now intuitive. I'll try.
The first couple of times a new player plays with another, it is very difficult, as you say, they end up listening to the other player, and forget to count, etc. Practicing the part on their own, remembering to practice counting the rests as well, helps. Once they've done it a few times (and sometimes it takes an outside coach counting out the rests, and beating the rhythm for them) it gets easier, it's a combination, I guess, of being sure of yourself - knowing your own part well enough to not worry so much about the other, and just plain being used to have another sound go along with yours. My D9, by the way, who is used to hearing me play, and hearing music most of the time, had no problem with this - she played her little song first time through with piano, a little wobbly, but together, then next time, took off, eyes lit up. She got it.
What she 'got', was that that's still not playing together. True chamber music goes beyond focusing on your own part, and focusing on the other players. Outside of the actual basic work of learning your own part (which you do before going into a chamber music rehersal), in a chamber group, it's much easier to comment on the playing of the other members than your own. That might sound bad, as in seeing your partner's flaws, but not your own, but in fact, in a good group, it's exactly what should happen - you know what you are doing, but they can hear it. The best chamber groups happen when each member considers the other members slightly better players - they feel honored to play with them. So they strive to do their best, and listen carefully to be sure to know what's going on, and to be able to give good constructive comments when needed.
When playing together, you no longer count and focus on what you're doing,instead, it becomes literally, a conversation, where you react to the other's playing. You know the notes well enough to know what you are doing, but you can't be quite sure what your partner is going to do that night, he might make a ritard, or a slight diminuendo, or just phrase a certain way, and you react, then you do something, and he reacts, and you forget what your fingers are doing and just listen. In jazz, and in baroque music (and some modern compositions) to a certain extent, the notes themselves actually change from performance to performance depending on the whim of the performers, so it really is a conversation.
I remember one performance while I was studying, when I apologized to my pianist for my tempo - it was much slower than we had rehersed. She looked at me kind of strange and laughed - 'what do you mean, it was almost twice as fast! (this can be bad too - but in this case it wasn't. Really a case of being 'in the zone')
I'm sure there's lots of stuff you can use in there - but I'm going to leave it to you all, or I'll look at it again tomorrow or so...I'm way too close to it, and too tired right now to draw any conclusions.
FF, your description of what playing chamber music is like was absolutely sublime! <sigh> And it described perfectly what I love about choir singing, especially in a small ensemble. When you know the music really well and you can listen to each other and react in the moment as the music flows.
Of course the way you describe a chamber music ensemble (and in jazz, too, as you point out-- we watched the movie "Bird" last night about the jazz musician Charlie Parker) IMHO is exactly how a relationship should work, too. (You knew I was going to say that, didn't you? ). Especially this part:
Quote: When playing together, you no longer count and focus on what you're doing,instead, it becomes literally, a conversation, where you react to the other's playing. You know the notes well enough to know what you are doing, but you can't be quite sure what your partner is going to do that night, he might make a ritard, or a slight diminuendo, or just phrase a certain way, and you react, then you do something, and he reacts, and you forget what your fingers are doing and just listen.
If the Assumption of Good Will is present in the R, this definitely can happen. And the part about how the other players can point out things about your playing that you can't see-- that happens in a R where there is trust and kindness.
One of the first things I remember posting on this board was a thing comparing good sex to two musicians or singers (or I guess, dancers, too) performing a duet... supporting, enhancing each other, while shifting the focus from one to the other.
I believe this can only happen when both sides pledge to be truthful and kind. Then you can be open, take risks, get honest, loving feedback, and the music can really flow.
My guitar playing is truly rudimentary; I've only been studying for about three years-- classical guitar. My bf plays the guitar, but more of a rock/jazz style. Sometimes I'll play one of my simple etudes or something and he'll improvise along with me-- what a treat!
FF wrote --------- I would not make food for H outside of reg. meal times, just 'cause I do end up feeling like a short order cook ---------
FF, get with the kids and plan the meals for a couple of days. Tell H you are overloaded and if he has amy suggestions for simple meals. Make a meals for everyone, no special meals for the children or H. Stick to it. I would not make food for children or H outside of reg. meal times
If I could be Mrs. FF for a couple of days I would make CHILI CON CARNE, spaghetti, scallop potatoes and ham, or the equivilent Finnish dish. In general something that can be reheated and eaten. That way H can stay in bed and miss out on family time if he chooses.
Special meals, people going to bed and getting up at different times, sounds like you have a mini-hotel going there FF. How many employees does it take to run your enterprise?
Rember, I worked in a group home for 14-19 yr old boys, for 7 years. I was on shift by myself and the home had up to 7 boys (most of them ungreatful lazy asses) at a time. After meal time the chain and lock went on the fridge till it was time to make the next meal. Basicall the same way it was in the US Army. Chow time posted on the outside of the mess hall wall. No exceptions!
To those missing a meal there was this question "Soldier, you got air? The rest can wait."
Sgt. OG Lou. Mess Hall "incharge" 5AM to 8PM FF, you can be more diplomatic than I was. I do not want to make trouble for you. I was only going to be Mrs. FF for 3 or 4 days then bail.
I make dinner around noon, just before I leave for work. I only get to eat with the family on weekends (and Fri.), since I work in the evenings, so ALL our meals are just that - reheatable stuff that everyone will eat. I have never gone out of my way to make seperate meals for everyone. At one point, MIL started giving the kids what they wanted if they wouldn't eat what they made, I put my foot down real fast!! Only finickey eater (outside of H) is D7 - and I suspect that's 'cause we were living with inlaws for 3 mos when she was about 2, and MIL catered to her, making her meatballs or hotdogs every day, every meal...
What I'm refering to with H is that he expects me to get up and make him breakfast and lunch before he goes to work (I get up at 6.30 after about 5 hrs sleep to get the girls ready for school - something I do very willingly, since I get to see them so little during the week, while H sleeps in, then when I sneak back to catch a nap before the boys wake up, H is getting up, and wants food) and around midnight, while we are watching TV (sometimes because he won't eat what I've made, often just because 'it's fun')
So I'm not talking about not including H in regular mealtimes. I make food that everyone eats together, and of course I hope that he joins us when we all eat (all too often he doesn't make it home in time to join the kids, so they end up eating by themselves )
When we moved here, and decided I would keep my job, I understood that it meant that H would be home in the evening with the kids, and not take advantage of his parents the way he seems to. Since he doesn't 'have' to pick the kids up from daycare, or pay a babysitter, he feels it's ok to come home when he feels like it (doing work, or going shopping. H is the money spender in our family).
For a long time, I went along with the food and tv thing, 'cause I thought he was feeling abandoned by me, that maybe I was devoting too much time to the kids, and this was his way of asking for more of me, but it's one sided, he ONLY wants food and TV, not time, but he wants me to be there. Used to be he would be miserable for days if I went to bed early. TV watching means watching, no talking aloud, lights out. I started using the time to fold laundry
Re: {{MIL catered to her, making her meatballs or hotdogs every day, every meal..}}
FF, I had a 17 yr old boy in the grouphome that called his grandparents about 3 times a week to bring him a "Happy Diner" hamburger because no one in the grouphome cooked things like his grandmother did. Good to hear you put a stop to your MIL's hotdogs and meatballs. MIL catered to H like she started to catered to your D. Now H wants you to catered to him too.
RE: H is getting up, and wants food) and around midnight, while we are watching TV (sometimes because he won't eat what I've made, often just because 'it's fun'}}
FF, what do you mean "It's fun?" It's fun to turn down your cooking? It's fun to see you do extra work at midnight? It's fun to watch you jump through H's hoops? Is it fun to eat snacks and junk food instead of a regular meal?
BTW, Edith Bunker, get me another beer will ya? Do your remember Edith Bunker from the 70's TV show "All in the Family"?
I have experienced the go get me thing myself. Also experienced the "this is not cooked the way I like it" comments from W several times. Last time I heard it from W, the plate I prepared for her went back into the pot and was put in the frig.
FF, I have a tip to pass on I got from the NOP's, Its called TV / frozen dinners. Tell H to buy his own. That way he can't blame you for getting the wrong kind. You said he spends most of the money in the family. Kill two birds with one euro. H buys food he likes, If he buys it, he is more likely to cook it, less money spent on other junk.
Are you Holding On to Yourself better? Are you blaming yourself less? What helps me in my situation is to pretend my spouse is a good friend, we are not M, and I silently ask myself if good friends act this way? It reduces some of the notions that come with my internal thought process and emotions of "how could my spouse think that way" when I feel wronged.
Sometimes I even tell myself my spouse is not married to me, she is an individual who's name is X, a friend, and we live together. Seems to help remove some of the expetations spouses have of each other. Just something I use to not take everything so seriously, reduce hurt feelings, and get to a point where we can talk about things where no one is right or wrong. I know, it sounds like we are room mates. Sometimes that is the way things are for a while.
It sounds like you are doing most things correctly, so if my advice helps, good. If it does not apply, then pass it by. Just trying to be helpful and a cyber support friend.
My D13 is in the choir at her school. Her choir director is a very talented individual. All the parents leave the concerts feeling complete amazement at what she is able to achieve with our averagely talented bunch of kids. For the final semester of 8th grade this year, she decided to separate the 8th grade choir into a boy's choir and a girl's choir. My daughter told me that she made this decision because the boys were unable to do what you described in your analogy. They couldn't maintain their part of the performance and ignore the girl's part. I'm sure there is some sort of sexist sexual analogy one could draw from this anecdote, but it would probably only be relevant to teenagers.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
JJ, what you say about separating the choirs is a very good illustration of the developmental difference between boys and girls at that age IMHO. I'm in a college choir and that problem doesn't exist with us. Our tenors and basses are fabulous.
OG wrote
Quote: What helps me in my situation is to pretend my spouse is a good friend, we are not M, and I silently ask myself if good friends act this way?
) when he tries to upset you. 
). Especially this part:
