Yes, Lillie, it is mean. And you're not the first W on the board to tell me that W sounds mean. But it's been that way for 29 years and it was only in my last post that I finally figured out that I can address it.
Quote: My question - is there ever a time that we will have a natural flow of sexuality in the R?
I've felt like I was almost there, but somehow it has eluded me. Have you read "Passionate Marriage". I guarantee that the advice given there is worth following even if it doesn't lead to ultimate success. I'm a bit burned-out at the moment, but once I rally my energies, I intend to start applying the principles in PM full force once more, because at least I know that I'll get a few full throttle erotic encounters if I make the effort.
The problem is I made improving our sex life my top priority for around 6 mos. this year. I participated in this board, read SSM and PM and applied the principles and I lost weight, got in shape and made myself dress more fashionably. I can't give the problem so much attention endlessly. I need to concentrate on my business, my kids, my extended family and friends, my falling-apart old house etc. It is so frustrating that I can't go into "maintenance" mode on our sex life. Either I am expending a lot of emotional effort and mental energy or I'm not getting laid enough to be comfortable. I wish I could just take a vacation from my marriage and catch up on everything else without having to become celibate. Maybe some LDW and I could just swap for a month or two. She could get a break from the "pressure" of her H's demands so she could take care of her other committments in a relaxed fashion and I could get a break from having to "work" for sex so I could concentrate on my To Do List. It would be like having a sexual handyman just to help me through a hectic time. After the holidays, I would be refreshed and ready to start working on my LDH again.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
MrsNOP, As usual I agree with what you say. Well almost everything.
No matter how you slice it, there IS a difference between an LDW and an LDH, mostly in how the wife reacts to herself.
You and I are both women, right. We both want to feel sexually desirable and beautiful to our husbands. This feeling is present in the HD fellas, also; they want to feel attractive to their wives. But I don't think that their self esteem is tied to their beauty and desirability in the way that a woman's is. So a man might want his wife to think he's hot and want him, but if she doesn't, he understands. After all, MEN are the visual ones, etc ad nauseum.
It leaves the HD wives basically alone to pump themselves up. Which is all well and good and the way it should be, but sometimes I wish that society supported MY position and told ME that 'oh husbands just aren't visual, they are not attracted to physical beauty in the way that wives are'.
When Jenny said that NOP was horny enough to get over the hump, I believe that she meant that he might have been able to look at you and see that you were not brimming with desire and still be able to carry thru with it, simply because he recognized that you were trying and loved him with everything you have.
The HD wife is in a little different position in that, yes, I see he is trying and loves me, but I also see the NON-physical reaction of his body and the reality of: There will be no sex unless that is rectified; as well as the temporarily devastating effects his lack of desire has on my esteem and my feelings of being a woman--including everything that that means, fundamentally, to a female.
So he may have the strongest desire in the world to be a good husband to me...to provide me with the amount of sex I need, etc, but if he is not hard he will not even try. Furthermore, there are only so many times that I can try to seduce my man and see the non-desire written on his face, (or he just plain doesn't notice) before I start to question myself as a woman.
Does this make sense? I don't know if you have ever experienced an encounter with an LD man but I have to say that being sexually undesirable to him, even if only occasionally, is crushing.
Yes I have read PM,SSM, and Resurrecting sex. These are excellent. H has read nothing. The place I find myself is where you are - in perpetual vigilance mode. It is exhausting. Frankly, I am beginning to think that I have little effect on H's libido - whether I dress well or not, whether I exercise or not, whether I am pregnant, breastfeeding or whatever... His libido has a gatekeeper - it is HIM. He filters all experiences through the lense of - "Is it the right time, place, circumstances etc...to have sex? If so, ok lets go. If not, I will just squelch those thoughts and go on with my day."
If you had to distill it down to just a couple of things what would you say has made the greatest difference in your SR? HP - I notice in your posts that you seem to have the most success when you speak your mind AND maintain yourself as the fun, sexy gal that it sounds like you are. When you (or any of us) get into that depressed, helpless, diminished mode and then try to have the talk or initiate then it just goes downhill. Yet maintaining the PMA gets exhausting. Perhaps we need "pinch hitters" - pun intended.
Quote: Actually, that's not how it worked with us. As we progressed on schedule and my heart wasn't exactly in it, he realized that going through the sexual motions wasn't what he wanted. His desire was to share intimacy with me. And he let me know that without anger. So, there were times when he skipped the sex, while letting me know why.
This is interesting. The pragmatic side of me just had a good thought. Maybe scheduled sex would work for us if we scheduled it more often than I think I want it. That way I wouldn't be disappointed if my H showed up with no desire on Wednesday if I didn't have to wait until Saturday for another opportunity. Maybe I should suggest that we consider having sex every day at a certain time. That way we could both be more relaxed if it didn't happen because we would be expecting to not be in the mood that often. How do you and NOP have a daily schedule if nobody is taking responsibility for initiating? Is it like a household where the first one who notices that the sink is full of dishes takes care of it?
Though my posts today are coming from my cynical side, I understand what you are saying about intimacy. The thing that is hard for me to remember is that intimacy isn't always pretty. My relationship would be "prettier" if I could just repress my libido and cuddle with Mr. Cuddles, but it is more intimate if I reveal my libido to him in all of its "looking for a piece of meat" sluttyness. I guess I'm still afraid of Virginia Woolf and maybe I've only made my way from the house made of bricks to the house made of straw. It's just damn scarey to be a little HD piggy out in the cold all unrepressed and exposed, especially when you see the big bad wolf every other time you look in the mirror.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
quote Does this make sense? I don't know if you have ever experienced an encounter with an LD man but I have to say that being sexually undesirable to him, even if only occasionally, is crushing.........
Jenny and NOPlady, I am thoroughly enjoying your discourse today.
Jenny I loved the three little pigs analogy. That is me all over. My R would be a lot prettier if I just chilled out some, and acted more like a lady. He would have the chance to feel that he satisfies me and that he is a manly man. I am well aware that I rob him of this feeling but what can I do? To be anything other than what I am is insincere and prohibitive to intimacy.
Oh and MrsNOP, Jenny may have you beat in the analogy department but you can turn a phrase like nobody's business.
I'm still trying to think of a way to use "sexual flotilla" in my everyday conversation. You know me...I will find a way to work it in.
HP wrote: ------------- Because we wives are married, after all, to MEN.
Men who do not like to be told what to do, or controlled. That's why Journey's husband had to throw that stupid remark in..just so he can re-establish the pecking order, so to speak. And I mean that in the kindest way. He probably was not even aware of what he was doing but it is his way of saying 'I am my own man'. -------------
Careful, men are not the only people on the planet with selfishness issues. Even biblically, I believe that it was Eve that made a rather bad unilateral decision in her relationship :-)
Control issues also cross the gender gap.
What you are doing is to attempt the working out of a relationship by finger pointing. I will tell you that it doesn't work, and that you are wasting your time and emotional energy.
I do understand your frustration, however.
QUOTE: ------------------- But I have to believe that it is far easier to get a woman to cooperate in matters of relational repair than it is some of these stubborn jackass men. -------------------
In my experience, it was just as hard to initially get MrsNOP to "cooperate" as it has been for you, or maybe harder. I spent a bit over a decade complaining about my situation.
You simply can not force anyone to change in a relationship. Therein lies the clue to the resistance you are encountering.
Your husband has to want to address your relationship issues. The exercise and the real goal is to get him to the point that he wants to work WITH you for the sake of the relationship.
Do you remember my post on passion?
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: The HD wife is in a little different position in that, yes, I see he is trying and loves me, but I also see the NON-physical reaction of his body and the reality of: There will be no sex unless that is rectified; as well as the temporarily devastating effects his lack of desire has on my esteem and my feelings of being a woman--including everything that that means, fundamentally, to a female.
I feel like maybe I'm on just a slightly different page than you, HP. My H's lack of desire really doesn't affect my own sense of sexual self-esteem anymore. It "depresses" me rather than "crushing" me. I think I described it once as making me feel like a rubber doll rather than a woman. Feeling sexual desire makes me feel "alive" and then confronting his lack of desire makes me feel not exactly "dead" but sort of "less than living". One morning a couple weeks ago, my H even made a point of telling me that he knew that I looked very sexy in some objective sense but it wasn't turning him on. He also said that it made him feel bad to be confronted with my sexuality and not feel any response to it. This was depressing to me because it makes me feel guilty for expressing my sexuality and making him feel inadequate. The real problem for the HDW might be that it is impossible for a LDH to truly acknowledge his low drive and maintain his self-esteem. My H will only go so far as to refer to himself as "a person who has to be in a certain state of mind in order to be sexual".
If I try to "pretend" that his initial lack of response doesn't bother me and move on to more "direct" methods, I can get a bit frantic because I've then taken on responsibility for his "performance". I just don't have that much mojo much of the time.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
