I don't know if this is any consolation or not for you but I have a hunch that your H's LD problems go deeper than sex. For my LDH it definitely did/does...but don't despair, we're working through this and things are slowly improving.
What have you done (alone or as a couple) in the past to try to work through this? Counseling, Dr's, avoidance, patience, anything? I don't mean that to sound flip, I'm just curious what you've tried...for some people doing nothing is a course of action too.
As for me I did demand (well not really demand) but insist upon my H having a complete physical and all labwork. Now with him there was a process to getting him to agree to a Dr. First we had to try herbal remedies/supplements (which I knew weren't going to work, but what the heck.)...and of course I talked til I was blue in the face...which only served to push him away and become more resistent to me.
When an agreed amount of time went by and the herbal supplements didn't work (as expected) he did agree to go see his doc. I know this is a bit manipulative, but I told my H that a low testosterone level is sometimes a leading indicator to more serious physical problems (not a lie by the way, this is true). I just knew he wouldn't go to his doc just to have his T-levels checked. This approach worked with him...unfortunately (or should that be fortunately?) all came back normal.
Which led me to my next course of action (which by the way I knew we would end up at, and I suspect your H should as well...possibly you as a couple)....counseling.
My H was very reluctant to do...for him counseling had been a precursor to divorce in the past. He felt I was going to use the C to validate my reasons for leaving...until I told him and her (our C) that I didn't need her to validate any reasons I may have for leaving...if I wanted to do that, I'd do it. I was there to avoid that eventuality.
My H is continuing to see his C, and has one he is very comfortable with which is great! For us, the C has been a very important part of things.
Let me ask you this as well....has your H had a pattern of initiating in your relationship...or should I say a lack of it? My H NEVER initiated and I didn't even realize it until I really looked at our relationship closely. We (I really) have recently discovered why that is...which would never have come to light without the C
By the way...I've been in OK since 88'...I think by now I'm a native by duration. Originally from the Land of Enchantment!
I don't know if this is any consolation or not for you but I have a hunch that your H's LD problems go deeper than sex.
I swear I think somehow it's related to 2 things: it's a control issue for him & somehow this is related to his mother. I think she's been giving him advice, although I'm not sure of the goal of that advice. But that is a totally taboo topic for H. I can't mention the fact that I think he is trying to re-create his mother's relationship with his step-father without him going ballistic & telling me to leave his mother out of our problems. Fair enough, but I swear she's been telling him something to encourage this. She's also told me a few times that I shouldn't be expecting sex very often at this stage in our relationship, so there is definately something there. Especially since I wasn't asking her for related advice nor have I EVER discussed this problem with her, so H maybe is, & who knows what she's telling him.
Quote:
What have you done (alone or as a couple) in the past to try to work through this? Counseling, Dr's, avoidance, patience, anything?
Not a flip question at all, and I probably haven't done enough yet... I certainly haven't worn out all options yet (but I need to think something might work in order to put the energy into this that it needs). We have talked, argued, screamed, promised and threatened. Sometimes things improve for a while. H brought up going to C once during a really bad time, but never went through with it. Last night I brought it up and he said that he had nothing to say to a C and wouldn't waste the money period. It is, however, going to be one of the things I insist on tonight. Actually, I don't really know where to look for one. I'd like a C who is goal oriented and in favor of fixing problems. I guess I'll be doing some research to find one this week.
I am also going to demand the testosterone check. I am kind of afraid though, I am too hopeful that T could be the problem, and of course there is a relatively easy cure. I am going to be sooo disappointed if this turns out not to be the problem.
Quote: Let me ask you this as well....has your H had a pattern of initiating in your relationship...or should I say a lack of it?
Actually, in the beginning, he did initiate, he wanted it more than I did, although I doubt I ever said no. And he always accepted my advances. This until we moved in together when it dramatically dropped from daily to once every 2 weeks. Which he initiated about half the time. (over the years this dropped to once every 1-2 months, and now to absolute nothing.) Actually most of the time when we did still ML, it was technically initiated by him. He refuses all of my advances, and when I’m sooo frustrated I can’t take it anymore, he waits a few days, then he initiates sex to put me in a better mood and he admitted that this was the only reason he did it…And no, it doesn’t put me in a better mood, I feel like an a$$ for taking whatever he gives me, and I rarely get O out of this, it’s not exactly great stuff, less enthusiasm than cleaning the bathroom, and more or less the same approach. Now I’m thinking the temporary high amount of ML from oct-dec was just to get me preg. & I’m at a frustrating impasse: I can’t initiate because he never accepts & I can’t take the rejection, but I have no way to get him to initiate
Quote: I think somehow it's related to 2 things: it's a control issue for him & somehow this is related to his mother.
My guess is that it's BINGO on both counts. However it's going to take some doing to get through both issues...but it can be done...that's what my H and I are dealing with right now too.
For my H it was a definite control issue in the fact that his past relationships were with very controlling/dominate women. They used sex as a weapon (withheld it, told him he wasn't normal for wanting it when he did etc.) and that's pretty much all he's ever known since he was a young man. So this time, when he married me out of self-defense he began to treat me as though I would behave the same way they did in any given situation. One mistake though, I'm nothing like them. I'm not controlling, don't desire to be. So he began to really push me away, especially after the birth of our S. He would actually do things that would by all rights elicit the response he thought he'd receive from his ex's....his behavior did two things. Alienate me & punish me for things I hadn't even done. It took our initial C to get him to see how Narcassistic he was being....it actually came out of his own mouth.
Quote: I need to think something might work in order to put the energy into this that it needs
Ok, not to sound rough on you here. But there is no guarantee that any particular thing will work on anyone...that's why you have to try different things. Don't use this as an excuse...cuz that's exactly what it sounds like, sorry just giving you an outsiders perspective. I kept trying with my H until something did work...lots of failed tries, but something eventually paid off. And just to let you know the C was able to get through to him when I couldn't.
Quote: H brought up going to C once during a really bad time, but never went through with it. Last night I brought it up and he said that he had nothing to say to a C and wouldn't waste the money period.
It's interesting how people will not "waste" the money on a C, but they'll throw it away in a divorce.
Quote: It is, however, going to be one of the things I insist on tonight
I had to insist as well...actually my words were "either we seek counseling, or we won't have another anniversary." But that was what I was willing to go through with, it's different for everyone. And as for looking for a good C, if you have an Employee Assistance Program through work that's an excellent place to start, otherwise you can do a search on the internet and there's often referral services you can find as well.
Quote: I am also going to demand the testosterone check.
At least tell him you want a complete physical done on him to rule that out as a possibility.
Quote: I am kind of afraid though, I am too hopeful that T could be the problem
I understand, I was hoping that was the problem for us as well, I was actually really disappointed when everything came back normal...if it was medical I felt that could be easily dealt with. Emotional stuff is so much more difficult...and my hunch is, that's what you're going to be dealing with.
Quote: I can’t initiate because he never accepts
What's his reason for rejecting you?
Quote: Where is the land of enchantment? Orlando, FL?
Quote: his past relationships were with very controlling/dominate women. They used sex as a weapon (withheld it, told him he wasn't normal for wanting it when he did etc
Well, now that you mention it, that really resonates... Several people have told me that his previous LTR was with a woman who openly (in front of friends and family) threatened to stop having sex with him if he didn't give in to her when arguing. & then again it does sound like what he's doing to me now...
Well.... We had "the talk" He still insists he doesn't want to see a counselor, but I'm going to just make the appt and see if he'll go once it's happening. He did agree to a physical and testosterone test. He still insists that ML during the preg would have been dangerous (he really won't let this one go)(!) He was (strangely to me) VERY against one of us moving into the guestroom, saying that would make us just roommates (but we don't have sex, I don't get it! what's the difference anyways?) When I told him I couldn't take the sexual frustration any longer, he tried to convince me I'm actually frustrated about work (I've been on maternity leave for 3 months, I'm not thinking about work right now). As for the actual issue: he claims it’s because we are in bad shape physically. Well, I’m still getting back after the pregnancy and he gained as much as I did during the preg. and hasn’t lost any weight. So now he swears that once we get back in shape everything will be better. Honestly, this has been a problem for 4 years, one that we have discussed many times, and it was a problem even when we were both in really good shape. I’m just not sure how to take this, it seems like it’s just an easy excuse on his part (and since it can’t been fixed within a week, a very safe excuse). On the other hand, it seems ridiculous to dictate to him what he is feeling, and at least it’s something that can be tangibly measured (ie: ok, we’ve both lost the weight, now what?) I am rather frustrated that this appears to mean that the wait is going to continue… for more than a couple more weeks… but I see some of you have been in for an even longer haul, so I’m going to try to buck up here. (no excuses GEL ) I’m trying to be positive, but the truth is I’m kind of miserable right now.
Quote: I can’t initiate because he never accepts What's his reason for rejecting you?
Most of the typical ones and a few creatives: headache, tired (even after he just wakes up) doesn’t like it in the morning, during daylight, before going to sleep, after taking a shower, or before leaving the house. He doesn’t like my approach (I’ve tried a lot of things here, gentle, rough, subtle, asking outright, touching, kissing, suggesting, scheduling, spontaneous places, in bed). He does claim to enjoy ML when he does it though.
I have been thinking all day about H and one of the things I realized is that as far as I know H doesn’t MB, even in the shower. I’m pretty sure he really doesn’t. I’m not really sure what that could mean, if anything. But curious.
Also, I’m beginning to think that this might become an issue for me… How do you get over your anger, hurt and pride when SO finally decides to ML after a long dry spell? After 3 months without, I was able to do this because I has a little drunk, after nearly 9 months, I wonder if I could get that drunk Seriously, because I think if H tried to touch me right now I’d probably attack him, and not in a good way. & if/when H does finally want to, I don’t want to ruin it by being angry. How do you do it?
Quote: as far as I know H doesn’t MB, even in the shower.
This could be my bf, too. He also thinkgs things will just get better by themselves. But I feel that the longer we go witohut, the harder it will be to get back across the gulf.
He also had past issues with demanding women. His ex used to lie in bed and shout for him to get back there and fcuk her!
I also believe it has something to do with his mother. (His mom and his ex are twins. Photos of mom ARE identical with photos of ex at same age.)
We are in C, and in a private session the C told me she believed there was at least emotional incest between him and his mom. If you met his mom, you would agree. The C said that people who do not trust the opposite sex have a very hard time being sexual, and told me I might have to find someone else if this issue is a deal-breaker. (And she is a Schnarch-oriented counselor.)
Quote: He still insists he doesn't want to see a counselor, but I'm going to just make the appt and see if he'll go once it's happening. He did agree to a physical and testosterone test.
That's great! Make the appointment for yourself, then at some point see if he'll agree to go. If nothing else the C may be able to give you direction on how to handle things, and deal with issues you need to as well. It's great that he's willing to see a Doc. though...my H was also more willing to do that than see a C...perhaps for your H that will be the next step as well
Quote: He still insists that ML during the preg would have been dangerous (he really won't let this one go)(!)
Does he not believe the thousands of doctors who have researched this and have found that it is not dangerous? Sure it may be uncomfy after a point, but it's not dangerous.
Quote: He was (strangely to me) VERY against one of us moving into the guestroom, saying that would make us just roommates
To me this says he obviously does love you and wants you as his W but there's more going on there. It's very possible he doesn't understand why he's not thinking about sex too...my H was having a tough time with that. It's as if it's a weakness to them...which I understand. And of course our telling them we want more sex, and then them as a male not knowing why they don't wanting it or think about it. I'm sure you can see how in their minds they would think we see them as less of a man...can't you?
Quote: As for the actual issue: he claims it’s because we are in bad shape physically.
Yep, he's coming up with the excuses...and the list of things to eliminate. I had a list of things to eliminate with my H as well...then he finally agreed to a C when there were no other options.
Quote: I am rather frustrated that this appears to mean that the wait is going to continue… for more than a couple more weeks…
I'm sorry to say, but it will continue...but it can improve. You've got some hard work ahead of you, but if you love your H and he loves you...as I believe is the case, this can be dealt with...and you will find that the hard work you put into working through this will build a stronger relationship for the two of you.
Quote: I’m trying to be positive, but the truth is I’m kind of miserable right now.
((((Laurie)))) I understand
Quote: What's his reason for rejecting you? Most of the typical ones and a few creatives: headache, tired (even after he just wakes up) doesn’t like it in the morning, during daylight, before going to sleep, after taking a shower, or before leaving the house. He doesn’t like my approach (I’ve tried a lot of things here, gentle, rough, subtle, asking outright, touching, kissing, suggesting, scheduling, spontaneous places, in bed). He does claim to enjoy ML when he does it though.
Dang! He sounds just like my H in many, many ways.
Quote: I know H doesn’t MB, even in the shower.
Neither does mine, hasn't the entire time I've been married to him anyway.
Quote: Also, I’m beginning to think that this might become an issue for me… How do you get over your anger, hurt and pride when SO finally decides to ML after a long dry spell?
Well to be honest, for me I had to make the choice to give him a chance...it's really hard, I understand that. But in order to really work on things you're going to have to take that chip on your shoulder and place it on a shelf for awhile. Going to see a C for yourself is a great place to start as well. A C may be able to give you some insight as to why your H is behaving the way he is and give you suggestions on ways to better communicate with him. I know for my H and I communication has been more than half our battle so far.
Laurie, I (along with Lassie) was nodding my head at so many of the things you wrote: No mbation, chalking it up to bad physical shape, the tiredness, afraid of hurting the baby, etc. I mean, who do these guys think they are? Once I showed my H a diagram of the inside of a pregnant woman, showing him where the baby is and where (approximately) HE was during sex. I think I convinced him that he wasn't going to hurt anything but, honestly, that wasn't the problem anyway. He had a hard time getting mentally into it while he was thinking of his child being within inches of his d*ck, and he was also not physically attracted to me while I was pregnant.
The only thing I can say to you is to keep doing what you are doing with him. Continue to talk and, by all means, do not be afraid to tell him the truth and forego the euphemisms. That was hard for me at first and it still is, sometimes. I try to be as honest and forthright as possible but sometimes I feel vagueness creeping in, in some backwards attempt to "protect" him from my true feelings. Bizarre, aint it.
My only other piece of advice about ditching the anger long enough to ML is to have a drink or four. Get yourselves laughing and enjoying each other and then you can break the ice.
You know I find that I continually fall into the trap where I defend his actions at times too...now ain't that bizarre. It's almost like I make excuses to myself for not being completely open about how I'm feeling or...whatever, because I don't want to hurt him.
I'm getting over that now LOL. The fact is, if I tiptoe around issues, or sugar coat things to spare his feelings...he doesn't get it, I'm not communicating clearly for him. That doesn't do anyone any good...I'm finally getting that myself.
It's an interesting dynamic though isn't it. If we didn't love these guys we could easily lay things on the line...be bluntly open/honest and not give a flip how they reacted...but the fact is, we do love em. So at times we have our own bizarre (for lack of a better word) behavior at times too
GEL - (aka) Lassie (woof!) LOL Hey...she was a red head too..any connection...God I hope not.
Hey, she'd do anything for a pet from Timmie, so maybe there is a connection. Especially if your man's name is Tim, LOLOL.
I am really honest about my feelings, my reactions to him, my opinion of his behavior (workin on that one ) etc. What I am NOT forthcoming about--and I just discovered this recently--is my own sexual wishes and wants and needs. I tend to downplay them so as not to freak him out and overwhelm him. I tend to minimize what I want so he doesn't think I'm weird or nutz. This is not just me being a ninny..it is a direct reaction to being called a nympho and worse over the years. He contributed to this, too. However, at this point...when neither of us is name calling anymore..WHY am I still holding back what I want? Is there some part of ME that thinks that my wishes are unreasonable? Have I bought into his accusation that I am unreasonable in my sexual requests? If so, why have I allowed that to happen? After all, he is VERY forthright about what his sexual expectations are and what he is wanting, so what is preventing me from laying my own stuff on the line?
So that's why I told him, this last weekend, Yeah damn skippy I want a hot sex life. Every day would be fine with me and by the way, what is your problem with everyday sex anyway.
The truth is that I don't really WANT everyday sex but I could easily live with it, at the same time. But for the past two years I have been minimizing my feelings when we have the frequency discussion and saying, H..Nooooooo..I don't want sex every day!..so that he is not worried or feels inadequate.
This, imo, is a double edged sword. Perhaps at first there is some merit to downplaying your needs so that your partner is not completely freaked, but at some point you have to get real. After all he is married to me and instinctively knows when I am saying one thing and secretly hoping for another. Maybe that's why he has been throwing this same tired line in my face for years "I can't have sex every day, like you want!!" and I would dutifully respond, H I don't want sex every day..
Instead I shoulda said, Well DAMN that is a disappointment cause I sure would love it every day! and let him deal with the feelings of inadequacy and letting-your-partner-down. Then we could move past that and on to something else. Perhaps I have been impeding his development by 'protecting' him with my half-truths.
Sometimes you have to face some really harsh feelings that come from your partner's direction in order to be able to feel immense hurt and then move on to the next phase.
) etc. What I am NOT forthcoming about--and I just discovered this recently--is my own sexual wishes and wants and needs. I tend to downplay them so as not to freak him out and overwhelm him. I tend to minimize what I want so he doesn't think I'm weird or nutz. This is not just me being a ninny..it is a direct reaction to being called a nympho and worse over the years. He contributed to this, too. However, at this point...when neither of us is name calling anymore..WHY am I still holding back what I want? Is there some part of ME that thinks that my wishes are unreasonable? Have I bought into his accusation that I am unreasonable in my sexual requests? If so, why have I allowed that to happen? After all, he is VERY forthright about what his sexual expectations are and what he is wanting, so what is preventing me from laying my own stuff on the line?